Rethinking Strategic Bomber and Tactical Bomber Roles

[baron Münchhausen]

@Black_Elk:

As people are discussing it really comes down to the fact that its harder and more expensive for the Naval defender to put up 4’s (fighter defense hit) in the water, than it is for the Air attacker to put 4’s (tacB and especially stratB) in the water.

I mean for the Air attacker a strategic bomber costs 12 ipcs, and for 24 ipcs you can get a pair of Hit 4’s into the battle.

To match this on defense, you have to spend 16 ipcs on a Carrier and 20 ipcs on fighters, 36 ipcs to at least match the hits in the first round of combat. That’s a fairly large disparity, and it doesn’t include associated cost of the transport and destroyer fodder that the naval defender needs to be effective with their force. Then take that same sort of equation and run with it over a few rounds, basically the Air attacker buying bombers is likely to outclass the Naval defender (spending less money on average with more reach/options for the heavy hitting 4s.) If it turns out that the bomber strategy gets stale and people feel frustrated with it, then some simple HR solutions could help the game.

If you don’t want to change the ability of the bomber itself. I think the best idea proposed elsewhere, was for a carrier deck that holds 3 fighters. That was probably the most elegant solution I’ve heard. It has some ease of use advantages. First, you it doesn’t change the printed values on the battle board, or the unit cost/values printed on the map. Second, the carrier sculpts that come in the box can generally support 3 fighters if you rest them with their wings on the diagonal. Third, it doesn’t require you to change a whole lot of other rules to accommodate. It doesn’t alter the value of the bombers directly (so the battleboard and the rest of the rules can still remain. It change the OOB unit distribution on the mapboard. It’s just an feature of the carrier deck to put up better defense. It could potentially provide some interest with the opening combats though, as the ability to land a 3rd fighter on a carrier deck might allow for some novel openings. Baron has discussed the idea before. I don’t know that you’d really need to change much else for the concept to be viable in G40, at least then you could match the bomber buyer more easily on the water. You’d still incur the cost of the carrier deck to activate them, but the cumulative cost wouldn’t be as high for the hit 4’s, relative to the dude buying all the bombers.

Right now people use Air Bases as a way to get more three hit 4’s in the water on the scramble. But Air Bases are expensive as well, and they are limited to one per territory. It’s still possible for the bomber buyer to outclass this on hit 4’s, given enough time/bombers. Not to suggest that the bomber strategy is so out sized right now, that everyone would change the game like this. But since there doesn’t seem to be much discussion of a 1940 third Ed. game, HR stuff is probably the best way to go if you want to see bombers work in a less overpowered way, then at least the carrier could be brought more into line with it, giving players a way to get fighters additional fighters into the water.

I think either triple fighter carriers to match the bomber hits at 4, for less cost over time. Or something like this last suggestion to just to limit the ways in which bombers can attack other planes. Bombers dog fighting is kind of silly anyway granted hehe. But I don’t know which approach is best. I would like a solution that requires the fewest necessary changes, and has the widest application on this and other maps. I wish a third edition was considered by publisher, so some of these ideas could be addressed officially, but until then they’re interesting to explore.

About a 3 planes-Carrier, if everything else is kept OOB this meant an increase in combat defensive capacity for the carrier.
Full 2 planes Carrier (36 IPCs) gives 4 hits and A6 D10, compared to 3 StBs A12 D3 3 hits.
3 StB attacking a full 2 planes-Carrier:
Overall %: A. survives: 24.3% D. survives: 61.7% No one survives: 14%
24 StBs attacking 8 full 2 planes-Carriers:
Overall %: A. survives: 7% D. survives: 92.2% No one survives: 0.9%

46 IPCs Full Carrier gives 5 hits and A10 D14, compared to 48 IPCs which gives 4 hits and A16 D4 for StBs.
4 StB attacking a full 3 planes-Carrier (for a 2 IPCs disparity):
Overall %*: A. survives: 27.3% D. survives: 61.1% No one survives: 11.7%

23 StBs (12 IPCs) against 6 Full 3 planes-Carriers:
Overall %*: A. survives: 4.7% D. survives: 94.5% No one survives: 0.8%

It seems to be almost the same statistical results but the main point is as you said: for the same IPCs you can get more useful units.
36 IPCs 2 planes Carrier vs 46 IPCs 3-planes Carrier:
4x36 IPCs = 132 IPCs vs 3x46 IPCs= 138 IPCs
8 Fighters    vs 8.4 Fighters

23x36 IPCs = 828 IPCs vs 18x46 IPCs= 828 IPCs
46 Fighters+ 23 Carriers   vs 54 Fighters + 18 Carriers
One defense against the other defense values gives:
Overall %*: A. survives: 33.7% D. survives: 65.5% No one survives: 0.7%

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However, the defensive value of a 2 hits 16 IPCs Carrier should not be taken lightly. It costs 8 IPCs to get 1 hit and a defense @2.
This compensate a bit making the exchange from adding 1 Fg unit on a Carrier not as overwhelming, as I first thought.

If, Fighter value was changed to A2 D3 C8, for a 40 IPCs 3-planes Carrier 5 hits A6 D11, slightly better than a 36 IPCs, 4 hits A6 D10 full Carrier:

10 full 2 planes Carrier (360 IPCs) vs 9 full 3 planes-Carrier at 40 IPCs (360 IPCs)
Overall %*: A. survives: 34.8% D. survives: 64.4% No one survives: 0.8%

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Since, the Calc gives the same statistical results, this imply that:
A 46 IPCs planes-Carrier with 3 OOB Fighters is similar to a 40 IPCs 3 planes-Carrier with 3 Fgs A2 D3 C8.  :-o

If everything else is the same, then it is simpler to keep your suggestion Black_Elk. No need to change the cost of Fg.  :-)
Allowing an additional OOB Fg or TcB on G40 Carrier will rise the defending factor of a fleet.

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However, wanting to introduce a special Fighter unit A2 D3 M4 specifically designated to hit planes first, then other kind of units, it imply a cost redux to 8 IPCs.

Consequences: 3 Fgs D@3 scramble will be inferior Def 9 instead of Def 12.
But, any Fighter put to  defend a Territory would hit directly StBs even when this bombers stack is supporting a few ground units.

These dedicated Fighter against enemy’s planes (and able to use ground units as fodder) would be a good repellent against bombers, which are rolling casualty as usual.

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Here is my solution to change G40 StBs stack strategy:

So, with a G40 16 IPCs Aircraft Carrier, 2 hits, A0 D2 M2,  able to carry 3 Fgs or TcBs:

Fighter A2 D3 Cost 8, hits planes first / SBR value: A2 D3

Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 Cost 10, rise to A4 when paired 1:1 with Fg, TBR at D6 damage / SBR value: A2 D1

Strategic Bomber A4 D1 Cost 12, SBR at D6+2 damage / SBR value A1 D0

AAA A0 D1* Cost 4, 1 hit, hit always planes (if any), on the first round up to 3 preemptive @1 against up to 3 planes, which ever the lesser.
After first round, regular roll @1 against plane.

Special Fleet Combined arms :
1 Carrier+ 1 Cruiser+ 1 Battleship get 1 preemptive AAA shot: on the first round up to 3 @1 against up to 3 planes, which ever the lesser.

[baron Münchhausen]

Now, trying to answer ShadowHAwk objections, I found an incentive to commit Aircrafts into risky battle, but also a different way of resolving the issue on Strategic bombers spam, but it is mainly to create an A&A game oriented for Airplanes interactions:
it gives Fighters an air-to-air combat role,
while giving TacBs and StBs an air-to ground combat role with higher offensive values compared to Fighter.

Air supremacy: (no enemy’s plane is present, or they were all shot down) provides for all planes present +1 Offense OR Defense.

This bonus is somewhat inspired by 1914.
In that 1914 WWI version, all ground units gained +1 Offense/Defense if their side gets the Air Supremacy during the previous air-to-air combat phase.
The only difference is that my Air Supremacy Bonus gives +1 to all aircrafts instead of ground units.

And each Fighter unit provides to any one Bomber paired with, the same bonus as given by Air Supremacy:

Fighter Combined Arms bonus: gives +1 Attack/Defense when paired 1:1 with Tactical Bomber unit or Strategic Bomber unit
Bombers (TcBs or StBs) Combined Arms bonus: gets +1 Attack/Defense when paired 1:1 with Fighter

Here are changes on Aircraft combat values:

FIGHTER
Attack 2 can rise to 3
Defense 3 can rise to 4
Move 4
Cost 8
Air combat unit: All hits are allocated to aircraft units first, if any available

Air Supremacy bonus: +1 Attack/Defense when no enemy’s aircraft

Combined Arms bonus: gives +1 Attack/Defense when paired 1:1 with Tactical Bomber unit or Strategic Bomber unit

SBR escort mission: Attack @2
Can intercept in SBR: Defense @3.

TACTICAL BOMBER
Attack 3 can rise to 4
Defense 2 can rise to 3
Move 4
Cost 9
Air Supremacy bonus: +1 Attack/Defense when no enemy’s aircraft

Combined Arms bonus: +1 Attack/Defense when paired 1:1 with Fighter

Combined Arms Bonus in Tank Support, Tactical Bomber as a “Tank Buster”:
Gives +1 Attack/Defense when paired 1:1 with Tank
Tank Support bonus can be combined with either Air Supremacy bonus or Combined Arms bonus with Fighter.

Tactical Bombing Raid: Attack @2
TBR damage: 1D6 on Air Base or Naval Base
On SBR can also do escort mission: Attack @2

STRATEGIC BOMBER
Attack 3 can rise to 4
Defense 1 can rise to 2 (added to keep the rule straight and simple, with no exception)
Move 6
Cost 10
Air Supremacy bonus: +1 Attack/Defense when no enemy’s aircraft

Combined Arms bonus: +1 Attack/Defense when paired 1:1 with Fighter

Strategical Bombing Raid: Attack @1
SBR damage: 1D6+2 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base

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Fighter and Tactical Bomber lower values fit very well for a three planes-Carrier.

1942.2 FLEET CARRIER A1 D2 M2 Cost 14, 1 hit
Carry 3 planes (Fgs or TcBs)
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser: get up to 3 preemptive shots @1 against up to three planes.

G40 FLEET CARRIER A0 D2 M2 Cost 16, 2 hits
Carry 3 planes (Fgs or TcBs)
Damaged Carrier can still carry 1 plane.
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser: get up to 3 preemptive shots @1 against up to three planes.

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY
Attack 0
Defense 1* **
NCM 1
Cost 4
1 hit

• On first round, get up to three preemptive @1 vs up to 3 planes, whichever the lesser (as OOB AAA).
  ** In addition, AAA fires regular defense @1 against up to 1 plane on the following combat rounds.
  Stop any Blitz, but cannot defend itself against enemy’s ground units.

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Cost has been reduced to 8 (Fg) - 9 (TcB) - 10 (StB) IPCs, because the air attrition is certainly too high within a regular G40 games and because all aircrafts only get their plain OOB combat values in specific situations: Air Supremacy.

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To get a whole picture of this HR, I would allow 3 types of defensive maneuvers for aircrafts to increase interactions between air units.

DEFENSIVE MANEUVERS allowed for 2 or 3 types of aircraft:

• Aerial Retreat for attacking planes (all aircrafts can retreat while letting ground units continue battle),

• Limited Aerial Withdrawal of 1 space in a friendly territory is allowed any round after the first combat round for defending planes up to 2 StBs or 2 TcBs or 2 Fgs.

• ****Limited landing in a just conquered territory (which includes at least 1 ground unit): 2 planes (either Fighter or Tactical Bomber)**, as long as each units can provide 1 extra movement point for this special landing.

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  This gives many reasons to put planes against planes into Naval or Ground combats:

  1- Sending only ground units, would imply that all defending aircrafts have a much higher odds to hit.
  Thus, increasing the number of attacking casualties for the first combat cycles.

  2- Another reason to bring especially TcBs into combat, I added a special +1 bonus for both offense and defense given to Tank (which can raise to A4 or D4).
  So, not only attacking TcBs can block the defender Air Supremacy bonus, but this gives an additional boost to the attack.

  3- From the defender POV, even a single defending Fighter (or TcB/StB) can lower the attack value of all attacking aircrafts (at least for the first combat round).
  And if there is only Bombers (and ground units) on the attacker side, then this single Fighter (or TcB/StB) (as long as is it not taken as casualty) keeps all Bombers attacking value to 3.
  Hence, an attacker ought to bring Fighter units on his side, in hope of shooting down the enemy’s planes, to increase the offensive values of his attacking Aircrafts (in the next combat rounds to come) and to lower the number of combat cycles (to minimize casualties on the attacker side).**

[baron Münchhausen]

Comparing the defensive values of both 3 planes-Carrier and 2 planes-Carrier

With Fighter value changed to A2-3 D3-4 C8, for a 40 IPCs 3-planes Carrier 5 hits A6 D11, slightly better than a 36 IPCs, 4 hits A6 D10 full Carrier:

10 full 2 planes Carrier (360 IPCs) vs 9 full  G40 3 planes-Carrier at 40 IPCs (360 IPCs)
Overall %*: A. survives: 34.8% D. survives: 64.4% No one survives: 0.8%

36 StBs A3 (10 IPCs) against 9 Full G40 3 planes-Carriers at 40 IPCs (360 IPCs):
Fighters are keep as last casualty:
Overall %*:    A. survives: 6.8% D. survives: 93.1% No one survives: 0.1%

With this, we can see that Bombers have similar combat values even if they cost 10 IPCs.

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However, this doesn’t include a different mix of Cruiser+Battleship and 3-planes Carrier to get preemptive shots at incoming planes.

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If you still find StBs too powerful, then keep Strategic Bomber cost at 12 IPCs.

In such a case, 10 StBs A3 (120 IPCs) against 3 Full G40 3 planes-Carriers at 40 IPCs (120 IPCs):
Overall %*: A. survives: 2.1% D. survives: 97.6% No one survives: 0.3%

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I don’t think it is necessary, because TcBs are cheaper and can easily gives a +1 bonus to Tank, something StBs cannot do.

TcBs becomes that way a more competitive units, but doesn’t have the long range.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

No, I was thinking 6 value die and the reason for lower values is do to the str bombers accuracy.
If you keep cost at 12 those numbers are good. If cost is 15 then raise values maybe 1 and SBR 1 die roll plus 2.
If you have Str Bombers attacking naval make it A1  D0

If the bomber gets a +1 on attack paired with a Fig, then how does that increase the Str bombers accuracy?

I can rationalize it as Fighters doing escorting missions will prevent enemy’s Fgs from intercepting and damaging some of them.
With 1 escorting Fg, 1 StB act like working under clear sky and no enemy’s plane.

[barney]

Nice work Baron! Sounds fun to me!

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks.
I wouldn’t have think about it without ShadowHAwk commentaries on the special Fighter unit which can directly hit other planes.

I basically used the OOB reverse value of Fg (A3 D4) and TcB (A4 D3) and I subtracted 1 Off/Def point.

An incentive was mandatory to risk more valuable planes into battle with grounds and aircrafts.

Also, with a high defense @3 for Fg, I believe it is necessary to have plenty rooms for air Fodder, hence the 3-planes Carrier and cheaper cost.

Also, it is a really big deterrent against SBR, that’s why Fg and TcB gets A2 when doing SBR escort.
I kept a low @1 for bomber, since their main function is to bombard ICs with D6+2 each.
The lower 10 IPCs StB cost can somehow slightly compensate but not entirely for riskier SBR raid.

For 6 StB you pay 60 IPCs instead of 72 IPCs.

On average, you lost 1/6 StB and make 5/6 D6+2 damage (5.5 IPCs).
5.5 x 5 = 27.5 IPCs minus 12 IPCs = + 15.5 IPCs net damage for 72 IPCs investment: 21.5% return on investment after 6 SBRs,
5.5 x 5 = 27.5 IPCs minus 10 IPCs = + 17.5 IPCs net damage for 60 IPCs investment. 29.2% return on investment after 6 SBRs.

However, this doesn’t consider the higher risk of even a single interceptor @3.

Here is the summary for this very special House Rule  :

Global40 SBR HRules : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2  / damage 2D6
Sum: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run                      Sum: + 5.833 - 2 = +3.833 IPCs damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: + 4.583 - 1.667 = +2.916 IPCs damage/SBR run                Sum: + 5.833 - 1.667 = +4.166 IPCs damage/SBR run

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G40 SBR HRules :1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D3
Sum: + 4.213 - 7 = - 2.787 IPC. damage/SBR run                                   Sum: + 4.908 - 7 = - 2.092 IPC damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: + 3.879 - 5.833 = - 1.954 IPC damage/SBR run                              Sum: + 4.574 - 5.833 = - 1.259 IPC damage/SBR run

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G40 SBR HR: **1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3
Sum: +2.813- 9.5 = - 6.687 IPCs damage/SBR run                                  Sum: +3.125 - 9.5 = - 6.375 IPCs damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: +2.479 - 7.917 = - 5.438 IPCs damage/SBR run                              Sum: +2.791 -7.917 = - 5.126 IPCs damage/SBR run

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G40 SBR HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3
Sum: + 8.438 - 12 = - 3.562 IPC damage/SBR run                                    Sum: + 9.375 - 12 = - 2.625 IPC damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: + 7.438 - 9.75 = - 2.312 IPC damage/SBR run                                  Sum: + 8.375 - 9.75 = - 1.375 IPC damage/SBR run

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G40 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3
Sum: +7.918 - 14 = - 6.082 IPCs damage/SBR run                                         Sum: +9.168 - 14 = - 4.832 IPCs damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: +6.531 - 11.667 = - 5.136 IPCs damage/SBR run                                     Sum: +8.5 - 11.667 = - 3.167 IPCs damage/SBR run

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G40 HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D3
Sum: + 9.027 - 7 = + 2.027 IPCs damage/SBR run                                        Sum: + 10.277 - 7 = + 3.277 IPCs damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: + 8.139 - 5.666 = + 2.473 IPCs damage/SBR run                                    Sum: + 9.389 - 5.666 = + 3.723 IPCs damage/SBR run

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G40 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D3
Sum: +9.931 - 9 = + 0.931 IPCs damage/SBR run                                     Sum: +11.806 - 9 = + 2.806 IPCs damage/SBR run

StB at 10 IPCs / Fg at 8 IPCs:
Sum: +9.319 - 7.5 = + 1.819 IPCs damage/SBR run                                   Sum: +11.194 - 7.5 = + 3.694 IPCs damage/SBR run

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Here is all the maths calculation on which was based the above summary :

Global40 SBR HRules : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2  / damage 2D6
5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs                                   5/6 StB survived * 7 IPCs = + 5.833 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs

Sum: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run                 Sum: + 5.833 - 2 = +3.833 IPCs damage/SBR run

1/6 StB killed *10 IPCs = -1.667 IPCs

Sum: + 4.583 - 1.667 = +2.916 IPCs damage/SBR run           Sum: + 5.833 - 1.667 = +4.166 IPCs damage/SBR run

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G40 SBR HRules :1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D3

StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll = odds casualties

1/63/66/6= 18/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed
1/63/61/6= 3/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed
1/63/65/6= 15/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed

5/63/66/6= 90/216 StB killed by Fg
5/63/61/6= 15/216 StB killed by AAA
5/63/65/6= 75/216 both survived

Results:
Bombard on IC 100/216= 46.296% * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.546 IPCs        / +7 IPCs = +3.241 IPCs
killing Fg 36/216= 16.667% *+10 IPC = + 1.667 IPC
StB killed 126/216= 58.333% *-12 IPCs = - 7 IPCs
Sum: + 4.213 - 7 = - 2.787 IPC. damage/SBR run                              Sum: + 4.908 - 7 = - 2.092 IPC damage/SBR run

killing Fg 36/216= 16.667% *+8 IPC = + 1.333 IPC
StB killed 126/216= 58.333% *-10 IPCs = - 5.833 IPCs
Sum: + 3.879 - 5.833 = - 1.954 IPC damage/SBR run                              Sum: + 4.574 - 5.833 = - 1.259 IPC damage/SBR run

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G40 SBR HR: 1 StB A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

1/627/366/6 = 162/1296 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
1/69/361/6= 9/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
1/69/365/6 = 45/1296 no casualty vs 1 Fg

5/627/366/6 = 810/1296 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
5/69/361/6 = 45/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
5/69/365/6 = 225/1296 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 270/1296= 20.833% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +1.146 IPCs                    / +7 IPCs = +1.458 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 216/1296= 16.667% +10 IPCs = + 1.667 IPCs
1 StB killed: 1026/1296= 79.167%-12 IPCs = - 9.5 IPCs

Sum: +2.813- 9.5 = - 6.687 IPCs damage/SBR run                                  Sum: +3.125 - 9.5 = - 6.375 IPCs damage/SBR run

Killing 1 Fg: 216/1296= 16.667% +8 IPCs = + 1.333 IPCs
1 StB killed: 1026/1296= 79.167%-10 IPCs = - 7.917 IPCs

Sum: +2.479 - 7.917 = - 5.438 IPCs damage/SBR run                                  Sum: +2.791 -7.917 = - 5.126 IPCs damage/SBR run

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G40 SBR HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3

StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties
2/369/366/6 = 108/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fgs vs 2 Fgs
2/3618/361/6 = 36/7776 1 Fg killed and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
2/3618/365/6 = 180/7776 1 Fg killed vs 2 Fgs
2/369/361/6 = 18/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
2/369/365/6 = 90/7776 no casualty vs 2 Fgs

14/369/366/6 = 756/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fgs vs 1 Fg
14/3618/361/6 = 252/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
14/3618/365/6 = 1260/7776 1 Fg killed vs 1 Fg
14/369/361/6= 126/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
14/369/365/6 = 630/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg

20/369/366/6 = 1080/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
20/3618/361/6 = 360/7776 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/3618/365/6 = 1800/7776 1 Fg killed vs no casualty
20/369/361/6 = 180/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/369/365/6 = 900/7776 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 4860/7776= 62.5%* ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 3.438 IPCs             / +7 IPCs = +4.375 IPCs
Killing 2 Fgs: 432/7776= 5.556%+20 IPCs = + 1.111 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 3024/7776= 38.889% +10 IPCs = + 3.889 IPCs
Fg killed: 3240/7776= 41.667%-10 IPCs = - 4.167 IPCs
StB killed: 324/7776= 4.167%-12 IPCs = - 0.5 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 2592/7776=33.333%*-22 IPCs = - 7.333 IPCs

Sum: + 8.438 - 12 = - 3.562 IPC damage/SBR run                                  Sum: + 9.375 - 12 = - 2.625 IPC damage/SBR run

Killing 2 Fgs: 432/7776= 5.556%+16 IPCs = + 0.889 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 3024/7776= 38.889% +8 IPCs = + 3.111 IPCs
Fg killed: 3240/7776= 41.667%-8 IPCs* = - 3.333 IPCs
StB killed: 324/7776= 4.167%-10 IPCs = - 0.417 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 2592/7776=33.333%-18 IPCs = - 6 IPCs

Sum: + 7.438 - 9.75 = - 2.312 IPC damage/SBR run                                  Sum: + 8.375 - 9.75 = - 1.375 IPC damage/SBR run

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G40 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D3

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

1/369/3636/36 = 324/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs
1/3618/366/36 = 108/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
1/3618/3630/36 = 540/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs
1/369/361/36 = 9/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
1/369/3610/36 = 90/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs
1/369/3625/36 = 225/46656 no casualty vs 2 Fgs

10/369/3636/36 = 3240/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
10/3618/366/36 = 1080/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
10/3618/3630/36 = 5400/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
10/369/361/36= 90/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
10/369/3610/36= 900/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
10/369/3625/36 = 2250/46656 no casualty vs 1 Fg

25/369/3636/36 = 8100/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty
25/3618/366/36 = 2700/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/3618/3630/36 = 13500/46656 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty
25/369/361/36 = 225/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/369/3610/36 = 2250/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/369/3625/36 = 5625/46656 no casualty at all

Results:
2x Bombard on IC: 8100/46656= 17.361% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 1.910 IPCs                     / +14 IPCs= + 2.431 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC: 22680/46656= 48.611% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +2.674 IPCs                       / +7 IPCs = + 3.403 IPCs
Killing 2 Fgs: 1296/46656= 2.778%+20 IPCs = + 0.556 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 12960/46656= 27.778% +10 IPCs = + 2.778 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 15876/46656= 34.028%-24 IPCs = - 8.167 IPCs
1 StB killed: 22680/46656= 48.611%-12 IPCs = - 5.833 IPCs

Sum: +7.918 - 14 = - 6.082 IPCs damage/SBR run                                     Sum: +9.168 - 14 = - 4.832 IPCs damage/SBR run

Killing 2 Fgs: 1296/46656= 2.778%+16 IPCs = + 0.444 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 12960/46656= 27.778% +8 IPCs = + 2.222 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 15876/46656= 34.028%-20 IPCs = - 6.806 IPCs
1 StB killed: 22680/46656= 48.611%-10 IPCs = - 4.861 IPCs

Sum: +6.531 - 11.667 = - 5.136 IPCs damage/SBR run                                     Sum: +8.5 - 11.667 = - 3.167 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G40 HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D3

StB+Fg rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

16/363/61/6= 48/1296 1 Fg killed and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
16/363/65/6= 240/1296 1 Fg killed vs 1 Fg
16/363/61/6= 48/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
16/363/65/6 = 240/1296 no casualty vs 1 Fg

20/363/61/6 = 60/1296 1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/363/65/6 = 300/1296 1 Fg killed vs no casualty
20/363/61/6 = 60/1296 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/363/65/6 = 300/1296 no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 1080/1296 = 83.333% * ((1+2)+(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.583 IPCs                               / +7 IPCs = + 5.833 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 576/1296 = 44.444% +10 IPCs = + 4.444 IPCs
Fg killed: 540/1296 = 41.667%-10 IPCs = - 4.167 IPCs
StB killed: 108/1296 = 8.333%-12 IPCs = - 1 IPC
StB & Fg killed: 108/1296 = 8.333%-22 IPCs = - 1.833 IPCs

Sum: + 9.027 - 7 = + 2.027 IPCs damage/SBR run                                    Sum: + 10.277 - 7 = + 3.277 IPCs damage/SBR run

Killing 1 Fg: 576/1296 = 44.444% +8 IPCs = + 3.556 IPCs
Fg killed: 540/1296 = 41.667%-8 IPCs = - 3.333 IPCs
StB killed: 108/1296 = 8.333%-10 IPCs = - 0.833 IPC
StB & Fg killed: 108/1296 = 8.333%-18 IPCs = - 1.5 IPCs

Sum: + 8.139 - 5.666 = + 2.473 IPCs damage/SBR run                                    Sum: + 9.389 - 5.666 = + 3.723 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

G40 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D3

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

11/363/66/36 = 198/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/363/630/36 = 990/7776 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
11/363/61/36 = 33/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/363/610/36 = 330/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/363/625/36 = 825/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg

25/363/66/36 = 450/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/363/630/36 = 2250/7776 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty
25/363/61/36 = 75/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/363/610/36 = 750/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/363/625/36 = 1875/7776 no casualty at all

Results:
2x Bombard on IC: 2700/7776= 34.722% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 3.819 IPCs                                 / +14 IPCs= + 4.861 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC: 4320/7776= 55.556% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 3.056 IPCs                                   / +7 IPCs = + 3.889 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 2376/7776= 30.556% +10 IPCs = + 3.056 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 756/7776= 9.722%-24 IPCs = - 2.333 IPCs
1 StB killed: 4320/7776= 55.556%*-12 IPCs = - 6.667 IPCs

Sum: +9.931 - 9 = + 0.931 IPCs damage/SBR run                                   Sum: +11.806 - 9 = + 2.806 IPCs damage/SBR run

Killing 1 Fg: 2376/7776= 30.556% +8 IPCs = + 2.444 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 756/7776= 9.722%-20 IPCs = - 1.944 IPCs
1 StB killed: 4320/7776= 55.556%*-10 IPCs = - 5.556 IPCs

Sum: +9.319 - 7.5 = + 1.819 IPCs damage/SBR run                                   Sum: +11.194 - 7.5 = + 3.694 IPCs damage/SBR run**

[baron Münchhausen]

GODLEADER wrote Tuesday Apr 02, 2013 12:34 pm:

For me too the SBR is too strong. The escort F def at 2 and reaction plane at 3.
Bomber cost is +2.

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6491&start=160

@GODLEADER,
I hope you will read this post.
Did you ever play a G40 game with such SBR rules?
I would like to get your experienced feedback about it.

Based on my calculations (last post, above), it gives the impression that such Fighter unit, is somewhat too tough on incoming StBs and escorts:

FIGHTER
Attack 2 can rise to 3
Defense 3 can rise to 4
Move 4
Cost 8
Air combat unit: All hits are allocated to aircraft units first, if any available

Air Supremacy bonus: +1 Attack/Defense when no enemy’s aircraft

Combined Arms bonus: gives +1 Attack/Defense when paired 1:1 with Tactical Bomber unit or Strategic Bomber unit

SBR escort mission: Attack @2
Can intercept in SBR: Defense @3.

Degrasse wrote Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:25 am:

I read the earlier posts where Oakshield and Cmdr Jennifer were leaning towards bombers fighting at 1 less than the escorts and interceptors. The bombers defending at a lesser factor than the escorts or interceptors is important as that defense difference will encourage the use of escorts. If the escorts and bombers both defend equally, then you should just send all bomber raids.

A. Bomber @ 0, Escort or interceptor @ 1, jet escort or interceptor @ 2
B. Bomber @ 1, Escort or interceptor @ 2, jet escort or interceptor @ 3

Either of these would work, but would B lead to too much attrition in SBR?

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6491&start=112

[barney]

Played a few more games and it seems to be working out well. SBR’s are still effective although they don’t happen quite as often. I’m somewhat conservative and like to have local air superiority before I attack. Likewise the defense doesn’t want to intercept and risk their fighters, but save them for land attack.

Germany was able to hit London and Moscow with Tac’s along to boost their strength so they encountered no interceptors. Later when Germany was in Belarus fighter escort kept Moscow interceptors grounded. Japan was also successful against India but it did tie up some fighter escorts from other missions.

The main difference was,obviously,the 3 attack. Noticed it mostly when taking out single blockers. Before you could send a dude and a bomber and feel pretty confidant that the enemy would die and you’d get the territory. But with only a 3 hit I was shut down more often. Even sending a extra dude didn’t always work and sending the fighter to boost kept the fighter from another mission.

Same thing with taking out sub killing destoyers. At least I had a carrier to send fighter backup but in the past a lot of times I would just send the bomber and a sub. Also threatening Gibralter sea zones was way weaker.

Found myself buying more fighters (although I’ve always liked fighters) to go with bombers and more Tac’s because of their 4 hit and tank boost on defense. Had Italy can open and moved a large German stack with armor and Tac’s but don’t know if it was really that much different than normal tactics. US and Japanese bombers also felt the difference but for me anyway Germany felt it most.

So I would say it lowers the number of bombers you build mostly due to the desire to have a fighter backup and Tac’s hitting at 4. It’s mostly when they’re on long range missions that they’re weaker. That seems more “real” to me. Tac’s were HellDivers and Stukas taking out aircraft carriers and tanks. Bombers were taking out factories, air bases and naval bases. Without fighter escort they usually got slaughtered. But the way A&A is designed they need to be able to take out combat units as well.

I know none of this is a revelation :) just thought I’d share my thoughts :) I like it and am going to use it as a standard.

P

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

Well wasn’t able to get all of it Baron but here’s a triplea xml that has bombers A3 +1 when paired with fighter(1:1), TACs A4 D3 gives +1 to tanks D when paired 1:1. Fighter escort and interceptors A/D 2.

Wasn’t able to get the +1 when no enemy air is present, but I don’t think that will mess things up too much. Most ships have either ACs or ABs to protect them. One fighter shutting down a slew of bmbrs would be the same as one dstry shutting down subs. Not being able to hit a lone blocker or sub killer sets them back as well as solo infrantry attacks but we’ll just play the historical strats weren’t good at hitting ships anyway. :) We probably won’t see many SBRs without fighter escort but that’s the way it goes. Their main advantage is still their range and offense can be boosted with a ftr.

TACs get the 4 hit plus the boost to the tanks D. So they still have a connection. Not sure how that will play out but I think it will be OK. Just have to play it and see.

Anyway gonna start a playtest right now.

If you’re not familiar with adding XMLs to triplea: open triplea, open maps, open WW II Global zip, put the objectives there then open games and put the xml there.

I believe it is this combat values you were talking about, right?

So, you like this SBR combat values too?

[barney]

Yes those are the ones Baron. I’ve played several games now and really like it.

[baron Münchhausen]

You still like SBR values even if it becomes a no combat situations?

As you describe it, I understand that either side is afraid of the enemy’s Fighters and there is no more dogfight.

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

Found myself buying more fighters (although I’ve always liked fighters) to go with bombers and more Tac’s because of their 4 hit and tank boost on defense. Had Italy can open and moved a large German stack with armor and Tac’s but don’t know if it was really that much different than normal tactics. US and Japanese bombers also felt the difference but for me anyway Germany felt it most.

So I would say it lowers the number of bombers you build mostly due to the desire to have a fighter backup and Tac’s hitting at 4. It’s mostly when they’re on long range missions that they’re weaker. That seems more “real” to me. Tac’s were HellDivers and Stukas taking out aircraft carriers and tanks. Bombers were taking out factories, air bases and naval bases. Without fighter escort they usually got slaughtered. But the way A&A is designed they need to be able to take out combat units as well.

I know none of this is a revelation :) just thought I’d share my thoughts :) I like it and am going to use it as a standard.

It seems to do as predicted on paper. From your description, it feels like a better depiction of WWII aircrafts combat behaviour.
I’m happy too.  :lol:

[barney]

Yes I still like it. The reason there weren’t dogfights was because I only SBR’d when I had 2 or 3 more planes than the defender. And if only 2 I’d have 2 Fighters escorting. So the odds weren’t there. I guess it was just the style of play. I could have sent fewer planes and tried to encourage him to intercept. 2 bombers and 2 escorts against 3 fighters  I’d probably do it.  Even though there were no dogfights I still liked it. I rarely used interceptors before either except for deterrence. If the odds are close to 50-50 I probably won’t dogfight and hope the AA does it’s job. I think I can use the plane in more favorable situations.

Hey glad to see your Happy!

:)

But yea did seem more real. Instead of a long range glorified dive bomber you got what you paid for. :)

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

Yes I still like it. The reason there weren’t dogfights was because I only SBR’d when I had 2 or 3 more planes than the defender. And if only 2 I’d have 2 Fighters escorting. So the odds weren’t there. I guess it was just the style of play. I could have sent fewer planes and tried to encourage him to intercept. **2 bombers and 2 escorts against 3 fighters  I’d probably do it. ** Even though there were no dogfights I still liked it. I rarely used interceptors before either except for deterrence. If the odds are close to 50-50 I probably won’t dogfight and hope the AA does it’s job. I think I can use the plane in more favorable situations.

Hey glad to see your Happy!

:)

But yea did seem more real. Instead of a long range glorified dive bomber you got what you paid for. :)

Just out of curiosity, it gives:
Overall %*: A. survives: 100% D. survives: 95.2% No one survives: 0%

Attacker results:
Probability % # units / losses
  29.74% 4: 2 Fgs, 2 StBs no units. : 0 IPCs
  44.64% 3: 1 Fg, 2 StBs 1 Fg. : 10 IPCs
  22.05% 2: 2 StBs       2 Fgs : 20 IPCs
  3.57% 1: 1 StB.   2 Fgs, 1 StB : 32 IPCs

Defender results:
Probability % # units / losses
  31.02% 3: 3 Fgs no units. : 0 IPCs
  42.7% 2: 2 Fgs 1 Fg. : 10 IPCs
  21.5% 1: 1 Fg. 2 Fgs : 20 IPCs
  4.78% 0: no units. 3 Fgs : 30 IPCs

http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=2&aCru=&aCar=2&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=3&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=1&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

@barney:

Well wasn’t able to get all of it Baron but here’s a triplea xml that has bombers A3 +1 when paired with fighter(1:1), TACs A4 D3 gives +1 to tanks D when paired 1:1. Fighter escort and interceptors A/D 2.

Wasn’t able to get the +1 when no enemy air is present, but I don’t think that will mess things up too much. Most ships have either ACs or ABs to protect them. One fighter shutting down a slew of bmbrs would be the same as one dstry shutting down subs. Not being able to hit a lone blocker or sub killer sets them back as well as solo infrantry attacks but we’ll just play the historical strats weren’t good at hitting ships anyway. :) We probably won’t see many SBRs without fighter escort but that’s the way it goes. Their main advantage is still their range and offense can be boosted with a ftr.

TACs get the 4 hit plus the boost to the tanks D. So they still have a connection. Not sure how that will play out but I think it will be OK. Just have to play it and see.

Anyway gonna start a playtest right now.

If you’re not familiar with adding XMLs to triplea: open triplea, open maps, open WW II Global zip, put the objectives there then open games and put the xml there.

I believe it is this combat values you were talking about, right?

So, you like this SBR combat values too?

Did you play on a board game?
Did you use the +1 when no enemy air is present suggested for Strategic Bomber?

@barney:

Yes I still like it. The reason there weren’t dogfights was because I only SBR’d when I had 2 or 3 more planes than the defender. And if only 2 I’d have 2 Fighters escorting. So the odds weren’t there. I guess it was just the style of play. I could have sent fewer planes and tried to encourage him to intercept. 2 bombers and 2 escorts against 3 fighters  I’d probably do it.  Even though there were no dogfights I still liked it. I rarely used interceptors before either except for deterrence. If the odds are close to 50-50 I probably won’t dogfight and hope the AA does it’s job. I think I can use the plane in more favorable situations.

Hey glad to see your Happy!

:)

But yea did seem more real. Instead of a long range glorified dive bomber you got what you paid for. :)

Maybe a way to get an increase incentive to intercept bombers can be to give a +1 boost on damage for each StB when no Fg is intercepting?
And as long as 1 single Fighter is intercepting, there is no +1 boost on damage for StB.

So, 3 StBs which usually may roll 3D6+6 for an avg 3*5.5 IPCs = 16.5 IPCs would rise to an avg of 19.5 IPCs if not intercepted.
Each bombers could get an avg of 6.5 IPCs (1D6+3)  instead of 5.5 IPCs (1D6+2).

What do you think of this?

[barney]

I think that is an excellent idea. Although I would say they kill the normal +2 on the roll on a 1 to 1 basis. That way one interceptor couldn’t cork a fleet of bombers. I suppose you could make it so they have to (interceptor) win it’s dogfight to make it go into effect. But I think just the presence of a interceptor should be reason enough to disrupt the bombing raid even if he’s shot down.

Sadly I have neither room or friends to play on the real board. I like the +1 rule if I did though.

[baron Münchhausen]

I will think about your challenging idea later.
Maybe there is some simple way to reduced StB damage against interceptor while letting it an interesting maneuver.
And, on the other side, rising damage so any player will prefer to intercept if he can.

Maybe 1D6+1 damage as the basic value. (Avg 4.5 IPCs)
And 1D6+3 damage if StB is not intercepted. (Avg 6.5 IPCs)

I would have to review some tables on SBR.

Or even more tantalizing: 1D6+2 damage still the basic value.
But 1D6+4 damage if StB is not intercepted. (Avg 7.5 IPCs)
More than 2D6 on average (7 IPCs).

[barney]

Cool!  You think apply it on a 1 to 1 basis?

Here’s a scenario:

2 escorts 2 SBRs against 2 interceptors. The interceptors negate the +2 to the die roll on the bombers for launching (1 interceptor per bomber). They still face 2 at 2A and 2 at 1A to their 2 at 2A.

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

Cool!  You think apply it on a 1 to 1 basis?

Here’s a scenario:

2 escorts 2 SBRs against 2 interceptors. The interceptors negate the +2 to the die roll on the bombers for launching (1 interceptor per bomber). They still face 2 at 2A and 2 at 1A to their 2 at 2A.

OK, eventually I will try it.
But what can be an incentive to launch 2 Bombers against 2 interceptors?
Actually the 1D6+2 damage still make it an unfair trade odds.
Sum: +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR run

Reducing damage will be a deterrent for making SBR in the first place.

[barney]

Right on Baron! Those bombers need to hit heavy when they get through!
So +3 no intercept +1 with?

But what can be an incentive to launch 2 Bombers against 2 interceptors?

No 2 bombers and 2 escorts against 2 interceptors. The interceptors are at losing odds in the dogfight but cancel 2 hits of damage for being there. If the bombers need plus 3 or plus 1 due to interceptors should be fine.