Cheapest but still balance warships and planes? Advanced Shipyard & Aircraft HR

[baron Münchhausen]

@arwaker:

I can understand this “dogfight” thing, but I dont agree with you that such a rule would make fighters less useful. As it is both, an advantage and a disadvantage of fighters, I think a price of 10 is still appropriate. Air is so versatile, and reducing its costs would lead to people making even more of them.

The introduction of a dogfight rule should not change any costs at all (except for the cruiser and battleship, both costs should be reduced by 2 anyway)

I never implied that such a dogfight rule make fighters less useful. By “higher attrition rate”, I meant that there will be more casualties amongst them.
Simply because of the higher probability of loosing these units compared to OOB in which there are kept 'til the last in ground battle and mostly for Naval ones too.

The OOB game is not meant to loose expensive planes every corners.
The odds are much higher with “2” and “1” rolls for Fgs and “1” rolls for Bombers.
Each combat round there is a risk to lose them.
That’s why I thought it is necessary to somehow increase the IPCs available (simply by getting more for your bucks) to buy the usual costlier units (warships and planes).

It is also intended to increase the number of planes in battle since they will be very useful, but still easily lost also.

[baron Münchhausen]

@arwaker:

I can understand this “dogfight” thing, but I dont agree with you that such a rule would make fighters less useful. As it is both, an advantage and a disadvantage of fighters, I think a price of 10 is still appropriate. Air is so versatile, and reducing its costs would lead to people making even more of them.

The introduction of a dogfight rule should not change any costs at all (except for the cruiser and battleship, both costs should be reduced by 2 anyway)

Maybe, the introduction of dogfight rule makes planes more powerful and should not require a lesser cost for them.
But, it is clear that these dogfights will increase the number of planes’ loss.
And to provide some additional IPCs, it can still be required to put forward the reduced cost for warships.
The savings made upon boats will be used to buy new planes at the OOB cost : 10 IPCs / 12 IPCs.

Black_Elk seems to think that OOB aircrafts, even with such reduced cost for warships, shouldn’t be put at a lower price.
@Black_Elk:

If you lowered the cost of aircraft, I would understand the logic of reducing the cost of aaaguns.

But I think I’m struggling to understand why the reduction in cost for ships requires a reduction in cost for aircraft?

If the only issue is cruiser to fighter parity, then I don’t follow. The fighters cost at 10 is justified by its movement and the fact that it can attack/defend on land. No one seems to have a problem purchasing tons of aircraft in this game, it’s the ships that need the cost reduction in my view. The air is already very potent

N.B. This quote never consider any special combat ability against planes for aircrafts.

[barney]

Very interesting Baron. I think you’re definitely on to something.
Haven’t really had time to “crunch” into it fully yet, but wanted to ask a related question.

I see you have the escort carrier at 9 ipc’s. If you kept oob global prices what would you put it at? I like the idea of it being anti-sub as well. :)

[baron Münchhausen]

G40 Escort Carrier A0 D1 M2, 1 hit, ASV, is put around 9 or 10 IPCs.
I prefer 10 IPCs simply because with OOB Fighter it cost a well rounded 20 IPCs.

1942.2 Escort Carrier A1 D1 M2, 1 hit can also be put from 10 or 11 IPCs, even 12 IPCs. I still prefer 10 IPCs.

[barney]

right on
I really like the idea but have never played with it
seems as if it would create more possibilities

[baron Münchhausen]

True. Sometimes when you already have planes waiting, you prefer to put an Escort Carrier at sea, for the ASV and the versatility you get with the plane. Otherwise, you get a better offense/defense against Subs right away buying Destroyers.
5 DDs A2 D2 C8 = A10 D10 Cost 40
2 CVEs A0 D1 C10 + 2 Fgs A3 D4 C10 = A6 D10 Cost 40

So in herself an Escort Carrier isn’t the best against Submarines compared to Destroyers.

From my play-test, it is seems that Submarines need better survivability against this option for 2 kinds of ASV units.

• Reduced cost is one way to get it.

• But I also reduced somehow the blocker capacity of Anti-Sub Vessel, requiring 1:1 basis, not 1 DD blocking an unlimited number of Subs (Der Kuenstler’s idea).

• Also, it can no more interfere with the Subs submerge besides that it cannot occur during a Surprise strike phase, since ASV still block Sub’s surprise strike.(KNP7765’s idea)

• In addition, aircrafts has no more need for an ASV to hit an unsubmerge Submarine.

In this thread there is more details:
Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1320853#msg1320853

In short, you get it here:
@Baron:

Submarines A2 D1 M2 Cost 5
Surprise Strike,
Submerge (instead of rolling to hit a target)
No hostile sea-zone (except when ASV is present),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Must be taken as the last casualty amongst warships, (said otherwise, a submarine cannot be taken as casualty as long as the owner has another warship type elligible in combat SZ)
Allowed to retreat separately from other units, (said otherwise, other units can retreat while the submarines stay in combat zone to finish off the enemy’s ships.)
Can hit transport before warships (even when there is other escorting warships, but it is the owner’s choice to pick or not a transport as casualty).
(Added to recreate opportunity for an Atlantic Battle in 1942.2 and also to reduce the effectiveness of Submarine against Destroyer and costlier warships.)
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an ASV.

Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 7
Anti-Sub Vessel on 1 DD:1 Sub basis, block surprise strike but cannot cancel Sub submerge (which mostly happen for defending subs in regular phase after the attacker rolls).

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, taken as last casualty,
Exception: can be pick as a casualty anytime if an enemy’s submarine get a hit (owner’s choice to pick or not transport as casualty, as usual).

(Escort Carrier A0 D1 M2 Cost 9, 1 hit
carry 1 Fg or TcB, Anti-Sub Vessel, working the same as a Destroyer), added for completeness

It is not the end of it, since it really needs playtesting.
Maybe to not block the Submerge capacity is going too far under 7 IPCs’s DD and 5 IPC’s Subs. IDK.

[barney]

yea I’m a little concerned this would boost the defensive values of fleets even more. I also added DK’s cruiser gets one AA shot which is another defensive bonus.
I wonder how much super subs would counter that? I’m trying not to tweak things price wise at the moment but I may eventually incorporate your entire cost structure.

Good explanation on the destroyers vs EC’s. Having a fighter that hits at 4 could be appealing though.

Good stuff Baron

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

yea I’m a little concerned this would boost the defensive values of fleets even more. I also added DK’s cruiser gets one AA shot which is another defensive bonus.
I wonder how much super subs would counter that? I’m trying not to tweak things price wise at the moment but I may eventually incorporate your entire cost structure.

I think Escort Carrier is costlier and not better on defense compare to a full regular Carrier.
It cost 10 IPCs for 1 hit while the 16 IPCs CV gives 2 hits.
As a counter-part, it is less vulnerable against Submarines than Carrier. But beware, if you have no place to land around and attacking Subs get to hit CVE, you will also loose a plane.

But it is true that it is also a defensive unit. It cannot be otherwise, if we want to respect A&A units profile.

However, a single TcB or Fighter bring a better combat support in amphibious assault than  a one time Shore bombardment.
@barney:

Good stuff Baron

Thanks.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is the statistics to determine the outcome of Strategic Bombing Raid according to these numbers:
Strategic Bomber Attack @1 Cost 10 IPCs Damage on IC: 1D6+2
Fighter Attack @2 Defend @2 Cost 8 IPCs

I provided a comparison with OOB G40, you will see that with the reduced cost SBR are still viable even if the Fighters have doubled their defense factor from D1 to D2.

From the sum, I can say that a raid with 1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D2 interceptor gives even odds (near 0 IPCs damage/run).
This new HR cost show also that escorting bomber with 1 Fg A2 gives better odds against 2 Fgs D2 than OOB G40 SBR rules.
It also show that it is better to escort the bomber with 1 Fg rather than launching 2 bombers against 2 Fgs D2.

IMO, this much better reflect the historical air supremacy role of Fighter units over Bombers.
(Something totally left aside within OOB G40 SBR rules, in which all planes get @1.)

1942.2 HR_SBR : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor with G40 damage D6+2 and reduced StB cost
Sum: 4.583 - 1.667 = +2.916 IPCs damage/StB

OOB G40 SBR: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor/ damage 1D6+2      
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

1942.2 HR: 1 StB A1 Cost 10 IPCs against 1 intercepting Fg D2, Cost 8 IPCs
Sum: 4.39 - 4.444 = - 0.054 IPCs damage/StB

OOB G40: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1 / damage 1D6+2
Sum: + 4.845 - 3.666 = + 1.179 IPC. damage/SBR run

---

1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2, damage 1D6+2
Sum: 3.371 - 6.296 = - 2.925 IPCs damage/StB

OOB G40: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: 8.286 - 5.540 = + 2.746 IPCs damage/StB

OOB G40: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

1942.2 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular cost 10 IPCs doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 Cost 8 IPCs, damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +8.777 - 8.889 = -0.112 IPCs damage/SBR run

OOB G40: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2/StB
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: +8.139 - 5.334 = + 2.805 IPCs damage/StB

OOB G40: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

1942.2 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular Cost 10 doing SBR Damage 1D6+2 against 1 intercepting Fgs D2 Cost 8
Sum: +10.039 - 6.111 = + 3.928 IPCs damage/SBR run

OOB G40: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR run

In this post, you can compare with OOB 1942.2 SBR and Triple A SBR for 1942:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33184.msg1311369#msg1311369

Here is the detailed calculations:

OOB 1942.2: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
5/6 StB survived * 3.5 IPCs = 2.9 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs
Sum: 2.9 - 2 = +.9 IPC damage/StB

OOB G1940: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *12 IPCs = -2 IPCs

Sum: 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/StB

---

1942.2 HR_SBR : 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor with increase damage and reduced StB cost
5/6 StB survived * 5.5 IPCs = 4.583 IPCs
1/6 StB killed *10 IPCs = -1.667 IPCs
Sum: 4.583 - 1.667 = +2.916 IPCs damage/StB

---

1942.2 HR: 1 StB A1 Cost 10 IPCs against 1 intercepting Fg D2, Cost 8 IPCs

StB roll /Fg roll / AAA roll

126= 12/216 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg killed: 5.56%
141= 4/216 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg killed: 1.85%
145= 20/216 no casualty vs 1 Fg killed: 9.26%

526= 60/216 StB killed by Fg: 27.78%
541= 20/216 StB killed by AAA: 9.26%
545= 100/216 both survived: 46.30%

Results:
Bombing: 120/216= 55.56% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= + 5.5 IPCs) = + 3.056 IPCs
36/216= 16.67% killing Fg *+8 IPCs = + 1.334 IPC
96/216= 44.44% StB killed *-10 IPCs = - 4.444 IPCs

Sum: + 4.39 - 4.444 = - 0.054 IPCs damage/StB

---

1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2, damage 1D6+2

StB roll / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

1/620/366/6=  120/1296    1 StB killed by Fgs vs 1 Fg : 5.09%
1/616/361/6 = 16/1296   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 1.93%
1/616/365/6 = 80/1296  no casualty  vs 1 Fg : 9.65%

5/620/366/6 = 600/1296    1 StB killed by Fgs vs no casualty : 25.46%
5/616/361/6 = 80/1296    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 9.65%
5/616/365/6 = 400/1296   no casualty at all : 48.22%

Results:
Bombard on IC: 480/1296= 37.04% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.037 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 216/1296= 16.67% +8 IPCs =  + 1.334 IPCs
StB killed: 816/1296= 62.96%-10 IPCs =     - 6.296 IPCs

Sum: + 3.371 - 6.296 = - 2.925 IPCs damage/StB

---

1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2

StB+Fg rolls / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

2/364/366/6   = 48/7776       1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs : .62%
2/3616/361/6 = 32/7776      1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .41%
2/3616/365/6 = 160/7776      1 Fg vs 2 Fgs : 2.06%
2/3616/361/6 = 32/7776      1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : .41%
2/3616/365/6 = 160/7776     no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 2.06%

14/364/366/6 = 336/7776       1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg : 4.32%
14/3616/361/6= 224/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 2.88%
14/3616/365/6 = 1120/7776   1 Fg vs 1 Fg : 14.4%
14/3616/361/6 = 224/7776   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 2.88%
14/3616/365/6 = 1120/7776  no casualty  vs 1 Fg : 14.4%

20/361/366/6   = 120/7776   1 Fg and 1 StB killed by Fg vs no casualty : 1.54%
20/3610/361/6 = 200/7776    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 2.57%
20/3610/365/6 = 1000/7776  1 Fg vs no casualty : 12.86%
20/3625/361/6 = 500/7776    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 6.43%
20/3625/365/6 = 2500/7776   no casualty at all : 32.15%

Results:
Bombard on IC: 6060/7776= 77.93% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.286 IPCs
Killing 2 Fgs: 432/7776= 5.56%+16 IPCs =   + 0.889 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 3024/7776= 38.89% +8 IPCs =  + 3.111 IPCs
Fg killed: 2280/7776= 29.32%-8 IPCs =       - 2.346 IPCs
StB killed: 756/7776= 9.72%-10 IPCs =       - 0.972 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 960/7776= 12.35%*-18 IPCs = - 2.222 IPCs

Sum: + 8.286 - 5.540 = + 2.746 IPCs damage/StB

---

1942.2 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular cost 10 IPCs doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 Cost 8 IPCs, damage: 1D6+2

StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

1/364/3636/36 = 144/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs: 0.309%
1/3616/366/36 = 96/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.206%
1/3616/3630/36 = 480/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 2 Fgs : 1.029%
1/3616/361/36 = 16/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.034%
1/3616/3610/36 = 160/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 2 Fgs : 0.343%
1/3616/3625/36 = 400/46656 no casualty vs 2 Fgs : 0.857%

10/364/3636/36 = 1440/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs 1 Fg: 3.086%
10/3616/366/36 = 960/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 2.058%
10/3616/3630/36 = 4800/46656 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg : 10.288%
10/3616/361/36= 160/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 0.343%
10/3616/3610/36= 1600/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg : 3.429%
10/3616/3625/36 = 4000/46656 no casualty vs 1 Fg : 8.573%

25/364/3636/36 = 3600/46656 2 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 7.716%
25/3616/366/36 = 2400/46656 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 5.144%
25/3616/3630/36 = 12000/46656 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty : 25.72%
25/3616/361/36 = 400/46656 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty : 0.857%
25/3616/3610/36 = 4000/46656 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty : 8.573%
25/3616/3625/36 = 10000/46656 no casualty at all : 21.433%

Results:
2x Bombard on IC: 14400/46656= 30.864% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 3.395 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC: 23040/46656= 49.383% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = +2.716 IPCs
Killing 2 Fgs: 1296/46656= 2.778%+16 IPCs = + 0.444 IPC
Killing 1 Fg: 12960/46656= 27.778% +8 IPCs = + 2.222 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 9216/46656= 19.753%-20 IPCs = - 3.951 IPCs
1 StB killed: 23040/46656= 49.383%-10 IPCs = - 4.938 IPCs

Sum: +8.777 - 8.889 = -0.112 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

1942.2 SBR HR: 2 StBs A1 regular Cost 10 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2 Cost 8
Damage 1D6+2
StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

11/362/66/36 = 132/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/362/630/36 = 660/7776 1 StB killed by Fg vs 1 Fg
11/364/61/36 = 44/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/364/610/36 = 440/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
11/364/625/36 = 1100/7776 no casualty vs 1 Fg

25/362/66/36 = 300/7776 1 StB killed by Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/362/630/36 = 1500/7776 1 StBs killed by Fg vs no casualty
25/364/61/36 = 100/7776 2 StBs killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/364/610/36 = 1000/7776 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
25/364/625/36 = 2500/7776 no casualty at all

Results:
2x Bombard on IC: 3600/7776= 46.296% * ((6+16) IPCs)/2= +11 IPCs) = + 5.093 IPCs
1x Bombard on IC: 3600/7776= 49.296% * ((3+8) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 2.546 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 2332/7776= 29.999% +8 IPCs = + 2.400 IPCs
2 StBs killed: 576/7776= 7.407%-20 IPCs = - 1.481 IPCs
1 StB killed: 3600/7776= 46.296%*-10 IPCs = - 4.630 IPCs

Sum: +10.039 - 6.111 = + 3.928 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

1942.2_HR: 1 StB A1 & 1 Fg A2 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2

StB+Fg rolls / interceptors Fgs roll / AAA roll = odds   casualties

16/362/61/6 = 32/1296    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
16/362/65/6 = 160/1296   1 Fg vs 1 Fg
16/364/61/6 = 64/1296   1 StB killed by AAA vs 1 Fg
16/364/65/6 = 320/1296  no casualty  vs 1 Fg

20/362/61/6 = 40/1296    1 Fg and 1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/362/65/6 = 200/1296  1 Fg vs no casualty
20/364/61/6 = 80/1296    1 StB killed by AAA vs no casualty
20/364/65/6 = 400/1296   no casualty at all

Results:
Bombard on IC: 1080/1296= 83.333% * ((1+2) +(6+2) IPCs)/2= +5.5 IPCs) = + 4.583 IPCs
Killing 1 Fg: 576/1296= 44.44% +8 IPCs =  +3.556 IPCs
Fg killed: 432/1296= 33.333%-8 IPCs =     -2.667 IPCs
StB killed: 216/1296= 1.667%-10 IPCs =    -1.667 IPCs
StB & Fg killed: 72/1296= 5.556%-18 IPCs = -1.000 IPCs

Sum: + 8.139 - 5.334 = + 2.805 IPCs damage/StB

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

To give everyone an opportunity to make his own mind about which SBR rules is his prefered one, and their impact and odds, here is a complete summary of all the calc results about various SBR rules with different combination of units:

G1940 SBR:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

Triple A SBR for 1942.2:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor (damage 1D6)
Sum: +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1
Sum: +3.69 - 3.667 = + 0.023 IPC damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 / damage 1D6
Sum: + 2.025 - 5.056 = - 3.031 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +6.155 - 5.33 = + 0.825 IPC damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +8.195 - 7.334 = + 0.861 IPC damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 5.973 - 3.667 = + 2.306 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +8.403 - 5.666 = + 2.737 IPCs damage/StB

---

OOB SBR rules for 1942.2:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor damage: 1D6
Sum: + 2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 first strike against 1 Fg D2
Sum: + 3.8 - 4.8 = - 1 IPC damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 / damage 1D6
Sum: + 3.071 - 7.185 = - 4.114 IPC. damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: + 6.018 - 7.555 = - 1.537 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: +7.547 - 9.556 = - 2.009 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
Sum: + 5.973 - 5.159 = + 0.814 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
Sum: + 8.214 - 6.315 = + 1.899 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

1942.2 SBR House Rules :
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor, damage 1D6+2
Sum: + 4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 regular vs 1 Fg D2
Sum: + 4.723 - 5.333 = - 0.61 IPC. damage/SBR run

1 StB A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: +3.704 - 7.556 = - 3.852 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike (due to combined arms with Fg escort) doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: + 7.554 - 7.564 = - 0.01 IPC damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: +9.445 - 10.667 = - 1.222 IPCs damage/SBR run

1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike (due to combined arms with Fg escort) doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
Sum: + 7.639 - 5.159 = + 2.48 IPCs damage/SBR run

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
Sum: +10.639 - 7.334 = + 3.304 IPCs damage/SBR run

---

2 StBs A1 regular doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D2
With optionnal limitation rule: in air-to-air combat, bombers cannot get more rolls than the numbers of defending Fgs interceptors.
StBs rolls/interceptors Fgs roll/ AAA roll = odds casualties

Sum: +9.306 - 7.334 = + 1.972 IPCs damage/SBR run

Here is a link to NightBombing SBR various approach and stats:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33329.msg1280598#msg1280598

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

yea I’m a little concerned this would boost the defensive values of fleets even more. I also added DK’s cruiser gets one AA shot which is another defensive bonus.
I wonder how much super subs would counter that? I’m trying not to tweak things price wise at the moment but I may eventually incorporate your entire cost structure.

Good explanation on the destroyers vs EC’s. Having a fighter that hits at 4 could be appealing though.

Good stuff Baron

If I introduced AAA Naval capacity at such low cost (Advanced Shipyard) it would be in a combined arms bonus and not for a single unit.
Maybe just up to 2 AAA preemptive shots against 2 planes when 1 Battleship and 1 Cruiser are protecting a Fleet Carrier, and only this kind of unit, not any Escort Carrier.
Each have their specific mission, Fleet Carrier have a more consistent AA batteries and CAP (Carrier Air Patrol) while Escort Carrier groups were assign Anti-Sub Mission.
So, to get Naval AAA buy all the three warships: Battleship, Cruiser, Aircraft (Fleet) Carrier.
In counterpart, these costlier warships units would still be vulnerable against Subs while Escort Carriers and Destroyers will be vulnerable against planes but much able to defend against Submarines.

@Black_Elk:

@Baron:

I’m more inclined to treat it exactly as an AAA unit: @1 against up to three planes.
After all, it is a known concept in ground combat adapted to Naval Battle and it requires 3 warships type, the number 3 is obviously on the board.
IC’s AAA seems too powerful and unrealistic: a defense @1 against infinite number of planes.
Defending Carriers are already much better than offensive ones. Anti-Air is providing an additional defense.

@Black_Elk:

Well the anti air for battlegroup concept seems cool. I think the hope was that we could find a combined arms that just had units pairing 1:1. That one requires a pairing of 3 different units 1:1:1, but seems like it could encourage Cruiser purchases.

Not only Cruiser but also Battleship buying incentive.
Another reason to not give IC’s AAA capacity: you want to defend against more than 3 planes, buy another Cruiser and BB to join another Carrier.
I’m pretty sure it can change some buying from Destroyers and Subs to Cruiser and Battleship.

It still cost 12+16+20= at least 48 IPCs (68 with 2 Fgs) to get this additional defensive abilities.

Maybe this concept can be simply extended to each combo of BB+Cruiser gives 1 AAA capacity as long as there is a Carrier to protect.

So 2 BBs + 2 Cruisers + 1 Carrrier will provides an AAA against up to 6 planes.

All this!  :-D

I think something along these lines could potentially bring both Cruisers and Battleships back into the mix as a purchasing consideration, and is relatively simple.

Of the combined arms proposed thus far, this one doesn’t bust the opening round combats. It would increase the swing on fleet defense making all out air assaults against a stacked battle group more risky. Right now the all air option is pretty powerful vs navies, this would give at least some way to counter that, but only at the cost of more expensive warship units, and somewhat diminished flexibility in other ways, since you have to keep the ships together to get the boost.
I still think a different bombardment bonus or marine concept could work for cruisers and battleships, or a maneuverability bonus for cruisers specifically, but both of those would surely have an influence on the opening balance.