Iraqi Elections

[Guest]

@Lizardbaby:

Education is their downfall IMO. … Start getting big ideas in the hands of their general populous. They don’t understand the choice we are trying to give them.

phew… hard stuff you are proclaiming here, and i am not sure why you think so.
Iraq was well known for its superb (in middle eastern standards) educational system. And i also think the population already has big ideas, whereas this “they don’t understand” sentence has a touch of the “take on the white man’s burden” philosophy.

[Meijing]

@Janus1:

i think the postwar handling of Iraq was misguided, but the war was still a good thing, imo.

Hey, this allmost sounds like Kerry.

I think, the “postwar” handling started before the war. Going to war on false pretexts like 9/11 or “weapons of mass destruction”, alienating allies like France or Germany, this all didn’t help.

[Lizardbaby]

F_alk,
I am not taking the time to be politically correct. Sorry, I just don’t care enough to rewrite this with that slant. Besides, it’s BS anyway. A large portion of the Islamic world goes to church run schools. We have all seen the pictures by this point. 100 kids all sitting reading the Koran over, and over and over. That does not count as a solid education in my book. It prepares them for squat, besides being holy men or religious martyrs. They already have enough of both. We need to give them options. It also does not remotely give them the mindset that people should be allowed to have differing ideas. If you can’t accept that people can be different and still coexist, you can’t have democracy. It’s a cornerstone. That’s a big idea. One I have seen no evidence of in the Middle East, in any corner. Every time they interview a “man on the street” I hear about how evil whatever other side of the fence is and usually how they will punish them. Small ideas. With thinking like that they are doomed.

[cystic crypt]

disagreeing LB,
Iraqi’s had the best medical system in the middle east (if not the world) until UN sanctions. They had an excellent literacy rate, and solid science programs. This is unrelated (AFAIK) to Koran reading.

[Guest]

@Lizardbaby:

A large portion of the Islamic world goes to church run schools. We have all seen the pictures by this point.

Any one of the pictures came from the Iraq? Very bad generalisation that you do.
I’ll do something similar:
I mean, we all know that USies are stupid. (that was your first post).
A large portion of them is stupid, we have seen that on TV over and over (your second post).
Where is APolaris when you need him to tell you how much evidence you actually have….

And just btw: What about the Talmud Thora schools in Israel as well? Is ISarael able to get the “big idea”?

If you can’t accept that people can be different and still coexist, you can’t have democracy. It’s a cornerstone.

I agree

One I have seen no evidence of in the Middle East, in any corner.

Well, the Baathist party line of arabic socialism and the general Pan-Arab idea or even the “house of Islam” and the tolerance to any “Scriputre” religion would be totally sufficient to create a stable and peaceful democracy. The ideas are there.

[Janus1]

Your incorrect. Democracy has evolved from under Autocracy. The United States for instance. I could name many others.
Democracy is not the next step for them. Theocracy is the next step. They are gonna look like Iran.
Education is their downfall IMO. That should be our focus. Think long term. Say 15 - 20 years. Start getting big ideas in the hands of their general populous. They don’t understand the choice we are trying to give them.

no, LB, there is a big difference between Iraq and the US. the american revolution wasn’t really necessary unless you really dislike monarchies. the british crown was truthfully not being so horrible to the colonies. the big issue was taxes, which were to pay to protect the colonies, and which were less than the English in England paid. that said, the colonists had enough freedom of action to organize in groups, and talk about dissent without constant terror of being found and killed horribly. colonists werent gathered up by british soldiers and shot for being a different ethnic group. the colonists had virtually no fear of george, he was 3000 miles away. even after the war started, the british soldiers were trying to keep the colonies on good terms. these people were their kinsmen, they were just misguided. they wanted them back, but not on bad terms.

now take iraq. completely different. the people, had they enough will to rise up against saddam, could not. he was right there, with his gigantic army, and the republican guard, randomly and wantonly killing his people, and ready to crush any who opposed him with brutal force. the people were terrified of him. they could not, had they ever talked about democracy, been able to bring it about, they were too opressed.

i dont say that they can have it now, or will, or should. just that now that saddam is gone, it can come to be, if they want it. otherwise, it will almost certainly be a theocracy.

[Lizardbaby]

Taxation without representation. Taxes are fine, as long as you get a benfiet from them. Paying for nothing was the big problemo.

Ok, France. Regardless, a populist uprising is the only way to change government. You can’t push any form of government on anyone, unless we count Anarchy as a form of government.
My point still stands. We are trying to get out fast. To do so we are skipping steps that would make this their process instead of ours.

F_alk,
I am sorry you think I am being bigotted here. I do respect them and their culture. That is really my point. We are trying to hoist on them ideas that do not necessarily originate in their cultural frame. Without a broad education, ideas originating from other cultural frames will not easily seep in. They certainly won’t take hold if you have people that think they are evil killing people that say otherwise. From my standpoint the only way to encourage Democracy is for people from Iraq (or where ever) to become farmiliar with them. Maybe even see them in action by coming to America. Fear is usually a responce to the unknown. Anyway, I am not gonna back off my point. I don’t think they are ready nor particularly desirous of Western Stlye Democracy.

[Janus1]

My point still stands. We are trying to get out fast. To do so we are skipping steps that would make this their process instead of ours

if that was your point, than i dont disagree. i said that i disagree with the post-war handling of iraq.

like i said, i dont believe anything we could have done would have made iraq adopt democracy, or even that it should. just that without saddam, its possible, as well as being possible for any other form of govt to arise.

[MuthaRussia]

@Janus1:

you really aren’t too bright are you.

I guess he isn’t, he has MR syndrome, right J1?!?!?!? :lol:

[Meijing]

@Janus1:

now take iraq. completely different. the people, had they enough will to rise up against saddam, could not. he was right there, with his gigantic army, and the republican guard, randomly and wantonly killing his people, and ready to crush any who opposed him with brutal force. the people were terrified of him. they could not, had they ever talked about democracy, been able to bring it about, they were too opressed.

i dont say that they can have it now, or will, or should. just that now that saddam is gone, it can come to be, if they want it. otherwise, it will almost certainly be a theocracy.

Yes, they could have brought democracy about not now, not with economic sanctions in place, but on the long run.
Watch Iran, unless the USA ivade it, it is likely to be the first democray in Middle East, with the exception of Israel.
Likewise I expect China to evolve to a democray.

It took 40 years for the East Germans to shake off comunism but in the end they succeded.

[Janus1]

Iraq would never have become a democracy on its own. it wont necessarily become one now. it is a possibility though, unlikely as it may be, it is a possibility.