Gas Prices… And it's solution?

[stuka pilot]

it’s over $2.20 where I live. I try not to complain about it too much. If you look at what ppl pay in certain European countries, you will see we still have it pretty good.

[Janus1]

maybe gas prices should be raised.

now stay with me.
I read an article by Andrew Sullivan (i think) in Time magazine, regarding gas prices. advocating increasing them. and after reading his point of view, and thinking about it, i agree.

first, a gas tax would be beneficial to the economy.
second, compare gas prices here to Europe. they are much higher in Europe. i heard a figure of around $6 a gallon in England, and im sure they are just as high elsewhere. compared to what we consider high in the US at about $2, thats a significant difference.
now compare the state of transportation. in Europe, cars are less popular (many people choose mopeds or scooters over cars), they are generally smaller (in Italy for example, a BMW 3 series is considered “full size”) and more fuel efficient (smart car). public transportation is far more prevalent and popular than in the US, and gas consumption is lower.

now what does this mean? well, nothing for certain. raising gas prices may do nothing more than piss a bunch of people off, and raking in more cash at each gas purchase.

but more likely, i believe, it will stimulate the innovation of more fuel efficient vehicles, the decline of the ever-present gas-sucking SUV, the research into alternative fuels (like those Hydrogen fuel-cell cars), and perhaps even the expansion of public transportation and decline in personal car ownership.

to top it off, the nations dependency on oil would go down, and things like invading Iraq for oil would be far less likely to occur (note: i said we invaded iraq for oil, but that was NOT the only reason, discuss on other forums)

sure it would be unpopular, but in the long run, i think it will be FAR more beneficial than detrimental. even if, as some people claim, it will unfairly affect lower and middle class people more, because they depend more on their cars. if that does happen, it will be a short-term negative, something necessary for growth and advancement.

[Guest]

Well the major problem of gas prices is not just supply but also demand. In fact demand in the US has risen sharply in recent years, and there are specific reasons for this. Did you really think there wouldn’t be a penalty for the excessive consumption brought on by the SUV craze? I think the gov’t should impose heavy taxes on these vehicles to deter people from buying them since they hurt even those that don’t own them.

[stuka pilot]

@AgentSmith:

Well the major problem of gas prices is not just supply but also demand. In fact demand in the US has risen sharply in recent years, and there are specific reasons for this. Did you really think there wouldn’t be a penalty for the excessive consumption brought on by the SUV craze? I think the gov’t should impose heavy taxes on these vehicles to deter people from buying them since they hurt even those that don’t own them.

Well, our Bush bitch-boy, wrote up a tax break for any businesses who buy SUVs. So now rich people buy SUVs for their businesses and write them off their taxes. I think that’s how it works :-?

[Guest]

now what does this mean? well, nothing for certain. raising gas prices may do nothing more than piss a bunch of people off, and raking in more cash at each gas purchase.

Raising gas prices could also lead to inflation and plunge us into a worse recession. Of course the Bushes seem quite adept at getting us into recessions.

[DarthMaximus]

:roll:

China China China.
The increased demand caused by China is directly related to increase in price.

[Janus1]

taxing SUVs would accomplish nothing. they are the tip of the iceberg. the country overall has too much reliance on gas. SUVs are just the latest example, but except for the hybrids, and smaller, european and japanese cars, no cars in the US get good mileage. so you tax SUVs, good job, you havent accomplished anything. most people with the SUVs can afford to pay for them, because they tend to be owned by middle to upperclass (kerry’s family, for example, owns a number of them)

[Guest]

shiver i agree with Janus … i must have catched a cold at least ;)

@AgentSmith:

Well the major problem of gas prices is not just supply but also demand. In fact demand in the US has risen sharply in recent years, and there are specific reasons for this.

The main reason will be low gas prices. If you complain about high gas prices, you of course should take into account how all teh other prices developed.
For the supply - demand thing: Janus has it right there. Make things more expensive, and less people will want to have it (or able to afford it). Make them cheaper, and you sell more.
Demand and supply will match by finding a new price. The main problem (and i am not sure that it is covered by textbook economics) is massive overproduction, so that the price (coming from matching the huge supply with a relatively small demand) is smaller than the production costs…. That is bad management of course, but still won’t lead to the managers getting fired, but them “rationalising” their workforce ;)

[cystic crypt]

wow. I agree with nearly everything said here.

@AgentSmith:

now what does this mean? well, nothing for certain. raising gas prices may do nothing more than piss a bunch of people off, and raking in more cash at each gas purchase.

Raising gas prices could also lead to inflation and plunge us into a worse recession. Of course the Bushes seem quite adept at getting us into recessions.

disagree.
raising gas prices would cause an increase in prices of raw materials, transportation and overall for products initially. At the same time, i think that it would cause a slow down of the economy as people have less surplus cash to spend - this would lead to a recession, but i do not think that inflation would occur. Hopefully the opposite would happen (currently the Bush administration is pumping out tons more US currency to support the war effort and float the economy, however this is in danger of causing inflation leading to higher interest rates etc. If, on the otherhand, cash reserves are depleted in order to pay for Arabic gas (i.e. sent out of country) then this would slow inflation).

I disagree with the usefullness of these “do not buy gas on this date” idea that circulates every once in a while. You’ve probably read this - the idea is that it will cost the oil companies $X billion dollars. The problem is that they ultimately pass the savings on back to the customer, who would end up just buying the gas the next day anyway. We need to stop buying gas for as long as possible. Myself - i bike as much as possible, using my car only when i’m “going out” and its raining. Otherwise for getting around to places within a 45 minute bike ride - i tend to bike (or walk - as i did to school/work every day for the last 4 years in summer and winter for 30 minutes). Call me cheap but . . . .

In Canada - the idea is that the gov’t actually wants to increase gas prices. We pay $ 0.84/liter in Winnipeg (i think that would be around $3.20/gallon) which is still about a third of what they pay in Portugal. Raising gas prices would:

1. increase gov’t revenues,
2. decrease wear and tear on our roads
3. fulfill our obligations to Kyoto
4. push for hydrogen/fuel cell technologies (much of this has been developed in Canada already, so it would just be a matter of better adapting to public transport in this country - not a stretch considering that we’ve been transporting it to other countries already).

Personally - i would prefer that prices dropped a little just until mid-August. That way my travelling would be finished, and i will have moved into my new digs - a 20 minute bike from work :D

[Guest]

even more similarities: it’s pretty much my entrie workout, walking to wrok and back 15 minutes each :). And with trams and train close by (and only 6 kms to the city anyway), i live happy without a car.

CC, is it right that there is one day in the year when more or less all “moving houses” are done?

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

even more similarities: it’s pretty much my entrie workout, walking to wrok and back 15 minutes each :). And with trams and train close by (and only 6 kms to the city anyway), i live happy without a car.

CC, is it right that there is one day in the year when more or less all “moving houses” are done?

i’m not sure i understand this question.
Many people move around Canada Day (July 1st). One can not book a U-haul truck within 3-4 months of this day because everyone is moving then.

[Guest]

A friend of mine told me exactly that, and it just sounded quite unbelievable to me. … And yes, that was exactly my question :)

[cystic crypt]

Yeah, it’s a bit of a pain. My sisters both bought a house (possession date is July 1st).
Also i sold my condo (possession date is June 30th). To make matters worse, i purchased a place,
http://www.webview360.com/territory/listingPage.jsp?oid=103214&territoryCode=602
and the possession date is August 13th - so i am homeless for 6 weeks . . . .arrghhh.

[Guest]

Hey, that loosk really nice … is buying houses expensive in Canada? If you were in Germany, you probably could not afford to buy one this “soon” after you started working.
And also: i know how houses are built in Germany and here… i wonder about Canada: what about insulation, windows, heating etc. I bet,as it gets cold in Canada, that you have double glass windows, well insulated brick walls and some decent heating in every room?

[Yanny]

The American Oil industry (with Texas friends in the Government) is setting records for profits. They are driving the price up. Blame them.

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

Hey, that loosk really nice … is buying houses expensive in Canada? If you were in Germany, you probably could not afford to buy one this “soon” after you started working.
And also: i know how houses are built in Germany and here… i wonder about Canada: what about insulation, windows, heating etc. I bet,as it gets cold in Canada, that you have double glass windows, well insulated brick walls and some decent heating in every room?

Thank you F_alk.
Winnipeg is a very cheap city to purchase homes in. Vancouver and Toronto (and even Calgary) are very expensive cities. I think that my home in an equivalent location in these places could be worth over $500 000 US (i’m a 10 minute bike ride from downtown in a very nice area close to a wonderful restaurant district). And you are right - i havn’t even started working yet. At the same time, i have enough equity in the condo i bought when i was a pharmaceutical representative to be able to afford the downpayment. Interest rates are low enough now for me to be able to afford this until i start working for real.
This is a 100 year old house. It is well insulated with a granite foundation and walls. The heating is forced air which goes into every room. The windows are double glass. My big problem is going to be the heat in the summer. I will need to get central air for this, i believe. If you ever make your way here, you are welcome to see it.

[221B Baker Street]

IMHO, the big question is whether or not the gas prices are a real problem. I recently read an article in the paper which said that adjusted for inflation, gas prices in the early 80’s cost $2.50 to $3.00 a gallon which makes me question whether or not this is a really significant cost increase. Of course this was not too long after the OPEC embargos of the 70’s and the Iran hostage crisis.

I do think it would be great to wean ourselves off petroleum for many reasons (reliance on OPEC, greenhouse warming, etc.) however there is no easy way to do this. The current infrastructure of most western nations makes it impossible to go back to a pre-automotive transportation system and there really are big limitations that prevent widespread adoption of mass transportation from ever having a huge impact here. I think the solution will have to come from new technologies, but it won’t be the hydrogen car because there is no way to get the hydrogen without using large amounts of energy (which comes from ???).

What I think will have to happen is to go with alternative sources for electricity (wind power and nuclear are the only feasible possibilities today) and perhaps the use of biomass technologies (conversion of agricultural by-products) to create synthetic oil where it is needed.

[cystic crypt]

@221B:

IMHO, the big question is whether or not the gas prices are a real problem. I recently read an article in the paper which said that adjusted for inflation, gas prices in the early 80’s cost $2.50 to $3.00 a gallon which makes me question whether or not this is a really significant cost increase. Of course this was not too long after the OPEC embargos of the 70’s and the Iran hostage crisis.

I do think it would be great to wean ourselves off petroleum for many reasons (reliance on OPEC, greenhouse warming, etc.) however there is no easy way to do this. The current infrastructure of most western nations makes it impossible to go back to a pre-automotive transportation system and there really are big limitations that prevent widespread adoption of mass transportation from ever having a huge impact here. I think the solution will have to come from new technologies, but it won’t be the hydrogen car because there is no way to get the hydrogen without using large amounts of energy (which comes from ???).

What I think will have to happen is to go with alternative sources for electricity (wind power and nuclear are the only feasible possibilities today) and perhaps the use of biomass technologies (conversion of agricultural by-products) to create synthetic oil where it is needed.

a car with a diesel engine may be refitted to run on Canola oil . . . :D

[DeviantScripter]

@cystic:

@221B:

IMHO, the big question is whether or not the gas prices are a real problem. I recently read an article in the paper which said that adjusted for inflation, gas prices in the early 80’s cost $2.50 to $3.00 a gallon which makes me question whether or not this is a really significant cost increase. Of course this was not too long after the OPEC embargos of the 70’s and the Iran hostage crisis.

I do think it would be great to wean ourselves off petroleum for many reasons (reliance on OPEC, greenhouse warming, etc.) however there is no easy way to do this. The current infrastructure of most western nations makes it impossible to go back to a pre-automotive transportation system and there really are big limitations that prevent widespread adoption of mass transportation from ever having a huge impact here. I think the solution will have to come from new technologies, but it won’t be the hydrogen car because there is no way to get the hydrogen without using large amounts of energy (which comes from ???).

What I think will have to happen is to go with alternative sources for electricity (wind power and nuclear are the only feasible possibilities today) and perhaps the use of biomass technologies (conversion of agricultural by-products) to create synthetic oil where it is needed.

a car with a diesel engine may be refitted to run on Canola oil . . . :D

Okay, but that doesn’t really help relieve ourselves of the real beneficial use for oil in this country, and that’s our economy. Without oil, how do you plan on transporting goods via truck, ship, or airplane? Can 747’s be refitted to run on Canola oil? How about a cargo ship?

I see the value in getting ourselves off of mideast oil dependence, but I don’t think it’s plausible to assume that we can do so and still maintain the status of economic powerhouse that we are. :-?

Here’s an idea…we drill our own oil. Alaska. 'Nuff said.

[Janus1]

and what do you do when the oil runs out