I didn’t want to read any comments on Into Darkness for fear of getting any spoiler tidbit. Let me just say I was stunned (not in a good way) by the third act. I could forgive the plot holes and shortcuts but the shameless recycling was unforgivable. Not looking forward to the most obvious sequel of the last 20 years.
The Worst History
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Disease and Genocide played a mixed role. For example in New England, an estimated 95%-96% of Indians died from disease shortly before the Pilgrams landed (which was why there was so much nice, clear land for the Pilgrims to use). They died at this astronomical rate because well, they lived in a clean enviroment. They bathed daily, as opposed to the bath or two a European would get per year, and lived in an enviroment where diseases did not flourish. So you are partially correct.
However, in parts of the continents where Indians did not live in such ideal conditions, Disease wiped out only the very young and very old. This was true throughout South America, the Carribean, Mexico, and the Southern and Northwestern United States. Also, after the initial shock of disease, the surviving Native Americans quickly developed a resistance to Western diseases. The Spanish thoroughly wiped out the entire native Med. Sea population, along with most of Mexico’s. South America fared better, but most of the heavily populated areas were depopulated whenever the Spanish arrived. Then of courses theres the British-American influence. Throughout the 1700s and through the mid 1800s, Indians were slowly killed and pushed out of America.
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Have to agree with Yanny… the Natives use to control two entire continents and a thriving civilization (especially in central America). Howerevr in a period of less than 200 years, the vast majority of Natives were wiped out (numbers speaking). Those who survived were either forced to flee or captured an sent into harsh slavery. Unlike the Jews, which have been able to at least recover and start new lives, many Natives still live in poverty today.
Kurds and Africans have also had rough histories, where the afteraffects are still being felt today (the Kurds to a greater extent)
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note that a lot of American Indians did their best to wipe each other out. Some even used blankets infected with smallpox as a form of biological warfare. So yeah, some had it rough, but they used each other, as well as brit and french immigrants too.
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I think the blankets with smallpox was a English (or French?) idea.
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EmuGod,
The American Indians, in a mere 600 years, went from ruling two continents, numbering in the tens of millions, and being relatively civilized, to a few hundred thousand (Or maybe a million? Not sure how many are left) people who live in the desert in poverty.
Partly because of disease, mostly because of genocide.
Yanny, going back 600 years a lot of Jews died and suffered, and not as much by disease as by their firendly neightbours. Let me list a very brief set of events in Jewish history for you from 600 years onward:
France:
1. 1306 & 1322 - Jews expelled
2. 1321 - 160 Jews buried in an enclosed pit at Chinon
3. 1394 - Final and complete expulsion of Jews from northern France
4. 1388 - No Jew allowed to live in Alsace-Lorraine
5. 1420 - Jewish Community of Toulouse Annihilated
6. 1789 - Jews emancipated after French Revolution (Napoleon instituted decrees once again forcing Jews into ghettos a few years later)
7. 1845 - Anti-semitic books published by Toussenel
8. 1854 - Anti-semitic books published by Gobineau
9. 1886 - Anti-semitic books published by Drumont
10. 1894-1906 - Strong anti-semitic feeling during Dreyfus Affair - a French captain accused of treason because he was Jewish. Mobs shout out in the streets, “Death to the Jews!”Germany:
11. 1880 - Karl Eugen Duehring writes his article “The Question of the Jews Is a Question of Race” which appeals to many.
12. 1879 - The Twelfth edition of Wilhelm Marr’s “The Victory of Judaism over Germandom” is published where Marrs coins the term “anti-semitism”.
13. 1879 - Anti-semitism supported by many intellectuals
14. 1881 - Anti-semitic League becomes active in its recruits
15. 1882 - Anti-semitic Party wins Parliamentary Seats
16. 1882 - Ritual Murder charges by Xians lead to mob violence against Jews in Xanten.
17. 1892 - Synagogue burned by a mob in Neu Stettin
18. 1933-1945 - Adolf Hitler comes to power and begins the Holocaust through his “Final Solution to the Jewish Problem”.Austria-Hungary:
19. 1882 - Ritual Murder charges by Xians lead to mob violence against Jews in Tizsa-Eszlar.
20. 1885 - Anti-semitic Party launched in Linz
21. 1897-1910 - Anti-semitic mayor of Vienna speaks against Jews and legislates against them.Bulgaria:
22. 1884-1904 - Frequent mob violence against Jews.Rumania:
23. 1866-1914 - Government support of anti-semitism leads to the flight of 70,000 of Rumania’s 125,000 Jews.Poland:
24. 1648-1656 - Chmielnicki MAssacres lead to the death of 100,000-200,000 Polish Jews.Russia:
25. 1563 - Jews in Polotzk who refused baptism drowned.
26. 1825 - Jewish centres in Tula, bobrov, Pavlovsk, Orlov and Saratov destroyed and Jews exiled to Siberia and Caucasus.
27. 1654 - Annexation of of territory gives Russia a large Jewish community, many of which was immediately murdered.
28. 1903 - First publication of “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” in St. Petersburg.
29. 1905 - “Union of the Russian People” founded carries massive attacks against the Jews, causing 2 million to suffer.I left out lots of events from many areas of the world including the United States, Britain, Italy and even from the countries I did mention. This is a very very short list that is missing a lot of information.
BTW, Welcome back TG!
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There’s no denying the fact that Jews have been persecuted to the nth degree, however the Native Americans (and all ethnic groups listed above) have suffered too. However (legitimate or not) Jews have a place they feel they can belong. What do the Native Americans have? Patches of land that no one in their right mind would want to live in in the first place? Also in terms of percentage (Natives relative to European settlers during colonial expansion), I don’t think there has been any other minority group that has suffered more.
BTW, Welcome back TG!
Yeah, it’s been a while. 8) Good to see you too, Emu. :)
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@TG:
There’s no denying the fact that Jews have been persecuted to the nth degree, however the Native Americans (and all ethnic groups listed above) have suffered too. However (legitimate or not) Jews have a place they feel they can belong. What do the Native Americans have? Patches of land that no one in their right mind would want to live in in the first place? Also in terms of percentage (Natives relative to European settlers during colonial expansion), I don’t think there has been any other minority group that has suffered more.
That is part of the big difference between Jews and most other minorities. Jews have not waited for others to help them while doing nothing but have rather taken it upon themselves to help themselves and try to succeed.
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Jews have not waited for others to help them while doing nothing but have rather taken it upon themselves to help themselves and try to succeed
And other minority groups haven’t? I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that. There have been many civil rights movements by africians, hispanics, homosexuals, and native americans in the past. You see these groups standing up for their rights more than I have seen of Jews… :-?
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@TG:
And other minority groups haven’t? I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that. There have been many civil rights movements by africians, hispanics, homosexuals, and native americans in the past. You see these groups standing up for their rights more than I have seen of Jews… :-?
I think that’s partially the point here. These groups are busy demonstrating when the Jews are just going out there and doing well in a variety of areas.
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@TG:
And other minority groups haven’t? I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that. There have been many civil rights movements by africians, hispanics, homosexuals, and native americans in the past. You see these groups standing up for their rights more than I have seen of Jews… :-?
They have recently, but notice how long it has taken many of the minority groups you mentioned to truly begin to organize. Look at some of the abused African countries, for example. Some of them are relying solely on western aid to build up their nations.
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Look at some of the abused African countries, for example. Some of them are relying solely on western aid to build up their nations.
Ahm, for those countries … you might want to take a second look. What were they left with when their colonial powers left. What kind of things could they export? Probably raw metals/minerals (if they were lucky) and food. For food, we westerners (EU and US) have built up extremely high walls, so no other source than “inside each ones wall” can come in. The Cairns Group accuses that with full right. So, that leaves the lucky countries that have other resources. What infrastructure was left in these gov’t hands to mine and sell their “goods”? Probably not much. So, to build such things up you need credits, or (foreign) investors. How we as investors do can be seen in Nigeria for example. We like to invest into “stable” countries, were stable usually means “not a democracy”. That this money then does not go to the people should not be surprising.
For credits: What are the requirements to get a credit? Drop all tariffs that protect your growing industry. Privatize (that is: sell to western corporations) everything that the state owns and is profitable (if it was not profitable, you can offer it, of course, but which corporation would buy it?).
Dropping the protection usually has a dramatic effect, especially on that countries agricultural sector: Not only can it not export, but the land will be flooded with our highly subsidized goods ( that goes to US and EU, just with different ways to subsidize).So, if you say they they are relying solely on western money… you should ask and look what made them do so, and what consequences arise.
Once you are in the abovementioned trap, at least i do not see any way out. -
To even try to compare Jews and Africans is like comparing apples and oranges. Jews at least are a part of the European population (an respectful lives when there aren’t any flare up in anti-semitism), where as Africans had their own countries. It’s not like Europe plundered and despoiled their own countries like they did to Africa. And what means did the Africans have to fight back, instead of being massacred?
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@TG:
To even try to compare Jews and Africans is like comparing apples and oranges. Jews at least are a part of the European population (an respectful lives when there aren’t any flare up in anti-semitism), where as Africans had their own countries. It’s not like Europe plundered and despoiled their own countries like they did to Africa. And what means did the Africans have to fight back, instead of being massacred?
you mean they “WERE” a part of the European population when they weren’t getting systematically eliminated from that population. Rather than Europe despoiling their countries blah blah blah - they despoiled their lives, their families, their homes in very targetted attacks. Even while colonial powers set about to despoil Africa there were attempts at improving the lives of the population through the establishment of schools, hospitals, etc.
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I refuse to believe that Jews were always under exploitation by the European powers. At least they recovered (for the most part); there is still exploitation of Africa and Africans going on even today.
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The Spanish thoroughly wiped out the entire native Med. Sea population, along with most of Mexico’s.
Then why do they still speak Greek, Arabic, Farsi, Italian and Spanish instead of todos hablan Espanol!?! :P
Sorry, I couldn’t resist.
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