First, I would like to apologize. If this thread offends anyone, I am truly sorry. While your belief in God makes you completely wrong, you have a right to wallow in your own ignorance. Second, I have so much to say on the subject, that I am most likely not going to have organized thoughts, and anything I do say will be immensely incomplete. Third, everything I am saying is coming straight from my head. I have no reference material, I am not quoting anything, and I am not being fed lines. Fourth and finally, I will try to pose questions about the very existence of God. I will make efforts not to ask the same, tired questions, (what is the meaning of life, why do bad things happen to good people, etc) I am not trying to win an argument simply by posing rudimentary questions that cannot be cogently answered, and therefore convey a sense of victory upon me, I am posing actual questions I have, which I am curious as to the religious opinion on the subject. If I think the question is not the kind you could realistically answer, I will say so.
How can anyone belief in so foolish a concept as a divine being? The very thought that there could be one omnipotent creature is absurd. Before I challenge the existence though, let me submit two possibilities for the existence of this “God”. First, the Big Bang (prevailing theory about the creation of the Universe) created all that is, and ever was. Our galaxy and everything in it, along with all other cosmic entities. Perhaps “God” is no more than some entity created by the Big Bang, which is greater in some way than we. Either it is much larger, or has superior traits, etc. Surely, to some insect or microorganism, Humans must appear as “gods”, we have the ability to rule their entire lives. Second, “God” is a being more advanced than ourselves in some way, but is then one of a race of “gods” who are the “humans” to an even higher group of “gods”, something like the theory that we are all just part of a much larger universe. These are only two possible theories, and there are many, many more.
The very nature of “god” as it is described seems fundamentally flawed. I doubt highly that anything could just “be”. that is to say, how could there be one omnipotent being that always was, always will be, and that created everything? What created it? or where did it originate from? How could it just exist? and if it created everything, what was there before it created everything? Was it just there? These are some pretty deep questions mind you, I dont expect any real answers, I am simply postulating questions. Mind you, the Big Bang theory postulates a singulartity being present before existence as well, but the idea of energy existing before existence is more agreeable to me than some tangible, omnipotent being.
Religion is where I find the greatest flaws in the belief in a divine being. The plethora of dogmas in existence leave me dumbfounded and sometimes speechless when I really think about them. For example, you have christianity. Within that, there is Catholocism, Orthodox, and Protestant. Under protestant, there are too many denominations to go into. All of these denominations of Christianity all believe in the divinity of Christ, but disagree on the finer points. Some are legitametly different denominations, but others, like Episcopalian to Catholic are basically identical. In cases like these, the difference is more political than over the dogma.
I think almost all of us have heard an argument over religion and the existence of God, where the different religions are brought up, and existence is challenged over differences. Many times, this is counterpointed by a statement something like “God is universal, we believe differently in the same being” or something like that. Now i have a problem with that. That is first of all, too easy. That seems to be oversimplfying things, and is way too conveniant. That would suggest automatically a monotheism. What about polytheistic believers? Does that include them? What about theories of the afterlife? Each religion has its own belief about life (or lackthereof) after death, be it a purgatory-esque existence, heaven, hell, reincarnation, etc. How could it be the same God, if christians believe in Heaven and Hell, and Hindus believe in reincarnation?
Thats all for now, I will post more later
I think it’s natural to want to believe in God. Human beings want to think they came from something and/or that there is something higher than a mortal existence. Just like young children love to be with their parents, there’s something comforting about a higher power. Personally I’m like George Costanza. I believe in God for all the bad stuff. :wink:
Theres a difference between believing something is up there and believing in a specific religion. Call me Agnostic.
so F_alk,
do i waste my time with this one?
Well, perhaps it seems absurd to you (which it obviously does) that there would be a God out there. However, I challenge you to disprove it.
Since you can’t prove that there isn’t a God, any more than I can prove that there is, then it simply boils down to our opinions (or beliefs if you prefer).
Yanny wrote: Theres a difference between believing something is up there and believing in a specific religion. Call me Agnostic.
That’s not called agnostic Yanny, though you may in fact be Agnostic. Agnosticism (not sure if that is what its called) is basically the religion for wimps. Its the best of both worlds. Its is essentially the atheists that are too scared to admit it, or are worried about the small, minute, miniscule chance that there is a God, and that by not believing, they might piss him off. It just means that you do not believe in, or not believe in God.
Like you said Deviant:scripter, I cannot disprove God, for a number of reasons. not least among them, even if I had some irrefutable proof with which to disprove the existence of God (which I do not) I could not convince almost any church goers, as belief would over ride anything i could provide.
However, I think that it is in face I who should challenge you to prove the existence of God, rather than I disprove the existence. There are rational, scientific explanations for such biblical topics as creation, to anatomy, to the Earth as we know it. While they may in fact be incorrect, they are realistic and logical hypotheses that have thus far appeared to be true. The opposing argument, that God does exist, must rely on much more fantastic explanations, or simply much more conveniant, even lazy ones (God created everything as it is, he created man in his image, etc. etc.) I would then challenge YOU Deviant:Scripter, to prove to me that God does exist, or at least offer convincing arguments.
@Deviant:Scripter:
Well, perhaps it seems absurd to you (which it obviously does) that there would be a God out there. However, I challenge you to disprove it.
Since you can’t prove that there isn’t a God, any more than I can prove that there is, then it simply boils down to our opinions (or beliefs if you prefer).
it appears that both sides are beginning at zero in this regard.
Deists believe there is a God,
Atheists believe there is no God.
Deists have considerable proving according to a seemingly arbitrary human logic the existance of God, Atheists are typically unable to prove their side.
Ignoring for a moment the creation that surrounds us, very believable case reports (i’ve heard and seen personally) of a world outside of our understanding as far as this tangible natural plane goes:
Christians claim to have actually experienced God. We believe because of a life-changing event spiritually that we are unable to prove.
Atheists have had no such event - which might well be their platform for their argument (i.e. I have not experienced God therefore God does not exist).
Christians, having experienced this, can do none-other than cling to their belief in this experience - it is very difficult for a person to argue persuasively “you have not had this experience” - thus the atheists bang their heads against the wall - despite not having a wall to bang their heads against - their problem.
At the same time, how do we explain the way we feel, the depths of our experiences?
A little story. I went to Portugal to be re-united with the love of my life - the woman i was to marry. In the meantime i was studying medicine at the Hospital of Santo Antonio (University of Oporto). When i arrived she dumped me. I found out later that she had been cheating on me with 2 other guys.
These are events i may be able to prove. What is impossible for me to prove or describe are the feelings in my heart that i felt those weeks. When i tell other people about it, however, almost everyone not only believes me, but can commissurate quite well despite not having an identical experience.
This is not true of my beliefs. Despite having some very real experiences with Jesus - with God, and the abiltiy to relate the circumstances, I can not prove any of these, and only Christians/people who have had similar experiences with God can relate to me in these lines.
I have no formal philosophical training outside of medical ethics, yet i think i can offer some decent arguments and answers to your questions. There is little point, however. “If you search for me, you shall find me, but only if you search for me with your whole heart”. Until you’ve entered the journey, you can not know what the destination is like, even if i tell you what my path has been like.
Interesting argument CC, except for one thing, there is no god, and you are wrong. :)
seriously though, i object to your claim that atheists have no proof while those who believe in god do. I challange what you consider proof. You are saying that creation surrounds us, experiences, etc. rank as proof. I would say to you that proves nothing.
As i have already stated, scientific evidence is sufficient proof for me disproving a god. (i was not always an atheist, and i did not become one because of a “falling out” with god, i simply realized in the foolishness of a concept such as god.
Before I challenge the existence though, let me submit two possibilities for the existence of this “God”. First, the Big Bang (prevailing theory about the creation of the Universe) created all that is, and ever was. Our galaxy and everything in it, along with all other cosmic entities. Perhaps “God” is no more than some entity created by the Big Bang, which is greater in some way than we.
There are rational, scientific explanations for such biblical topics as creation, to anatomy, to the Earth as we know it. While they may in fact be incorrect, they are realistic and logical hypotheses that have thus far appeared to be true.
As i have already stated, scientific evidence is sufficient proof for me disproving a god.
Maybe you could provide some insights over on the evolution or bible thread.
Third, everything I am saying is coming straight from my head. I have no reference material, I am not quoting anything, and I am not being fed lines.
Well, maybe not. I prefer well thought out theories with some source backup. Anyone can make stuff up.
While your belief in God makes you completely wrong, you have a right to wallow in your own ignorance.
Does anyone else see the irony in his statement based on his previous quote?
W…2…
Excuse me, please, for what will probably become a long response post.
How can anyone belief in so foolish a concept as a divine being?
One could reverse the question and ask you: “How can anyone be so foolish as to not believe in a divine being?” To use what I consider a somewhat weak statement that i haven’t found a better way of saying: “If we’re wrong, we lose nothing. If you’re wrong, you lose everything.” If I’m wrong, I still have no afterlife. If you’re wrong, you spend eternity in Hell.
the Big Bang theory postulates a singulartity being present before existence as well
I’ve met people who would agree with you. Yet you admit (at least from what I gather b/c you may not be admitting anything) that both take faith/belief/opinion.
Many times, this is counterpointed by a statement something like “God is universal, we believe differently in the same being” or something like that. Now i have a problem with that. That is first of all, too easy.
I have a problem with that too. It is too easy, but IMO your explanation is too easy as well. I believe that there is only ONE way to the ONE true God. That’s through Jesus Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. That cannot be defined as easy because it offends too many people.
How could it be the same God, if christians believe in Heaven and Hell, and Hindus believe in reincarnation?
It’s not the same God. Jesus Christ is God, and reincarnation is a wrong philosophy.
For example, you have christianity. Within that, there is Catholocism, Orthodox, and Protestant. Under protestant, there are too many denominations to go into. All of these denominations of Christianity all believe in the divinity of Christ, but disagree on the finer points. Some are legitametly different denominations, but others, like Episcopalian to Catholic are basically identical.
That’s true, but you just said that they all agree on one point: “the divinity of Christ.” Funny that that’s the one thing the agree on, huh?
I believe in God for all the bad stuff.
An immature attitude. I mean no offense. If you want a scapegoat you can choose anything, obviously. You could choose your best friend, but at least with him/her you would know that you should acknowledge the good things they do.
Well, perhaps it seems absurd to you (which it obviously does) that there would be a God out there. However, I challenge you to disprove it.
From a scientific viewpoint, you can do neither. You can’t taste, touch, see, smell, or hear either the chemicals or God (these days anyway b/c that comes through the Bible).
Interesting argument CC, except for one thing, there is no god, and you are wrong.
I can’t resist, Janus. :wink: You have an interesting argument, except for one thing, there IS a God (only one, in fact) and you are wrong.
Does anyone else see the irony in his statement based on his previous quote?
Yes.
Interesting argument CC, except for one thing, there is no god, and you are wrong. :)
i can’t believe i’m in a position of wishing FinsterniS was about for a “rational” discussion on this.
seriously though, i object to your claim that atheists have no proof while those who believe in god do.
i said the opposite. I said that we have not proof that God exists. Don’t do that.
I challange what you consider proof. You are saying that creation surrounds us, experiences, etc. rank as proof. I would say to you that proves nothing.
I never said this ranks as proof. Quite the opposite. I said that this is not proof. I also said that this is the inherent problem with this discussion. Please take the time to read the whole post when you comment on it. This becomes tiresome.
As i have already stated, scientific evidence is sufficient proof for me disproving a god. (i was not always an atheist, and i did not become one because of a “falling out” with god, i simply realized in the foolishness of a concept such as god.
i’m a scientist. As far as i know there is no proof offered by the scientific communty “disproving a god”. Regardless this would be a theological and scientific impossibility. To disprove the very thing that to identify would reveal its existance. Good luck with that tho’.
I have a problem with that too. It is too easy, but IMO your explanation is too easy as well. I believe that there is only ONE way to the ONE true God. That’s through Jesus Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. That cannot be defined as easy because it offends too many people.
It’s not the same God. Jesus Christ is God, and reincarnation is a wrong philosophy.
You seriously believe 4 billion people are going to hell becuase they are simple misguided in you mind? Even if some of them have had religous experiences that surpass yours and have convinced them that their religion is true. I could not believe in a god that would do that, it seems cold and heartless. A cold and heartless god is not really something I’d want to believe in.
I will start with the follow-ups, and the next will cover the original posting… and of course, most of my answers will be “bashing”, and few “approving”… but then: “Qui tacet, consentiere videtur” ;)
@cystic:
so F_alk,
do i waste my time with this one?
You shouldn’t have done it :)…
@cystic:
Deists have considerable proving according to a seemingly arbitrary human logic the existance of God, Atheists are typically unable to prove their side.
You mix up the sides again, CC ;) :)…… It’s the other way round…
as you said in a later post as well ;)
Christians claim to have actually experienced God. We believe because of a life-changing event spiritually that we are unable to prove.
Atheists have had no such event - which might well be their platform for their argument (i.e. I have not experienced God therefore God does not exist).
Very well said.
“If we’re wrong, we lose nothing. If you’re wrong, you lose everything.” If I’m wrong, I still have no afterlife. If you’re wrong, you spend eternity in Hell."
This is what i would call “religion for wimps” :) Even then: If you are wrong, you spend your next 15 lifes as some invertebrate, while i will be in Nirvana by then ;)…
How could it be the same God, if christians believe in Heaven and Hell, and Hindus believe in reincarnation?
It’s not the same God. Jesus Christ is God, and reincarnation is a wrong philosophy.
Funny that you don’t even allow it the status of a religion.
Did all the people before JC, or before Abraham go to hell? Do all christians go to hell because they don’t follow the upgrade "Monotheism V3.1 “Islam” "?
From a scientific viewpoint, you can do neither. You can’t taste, touch, see, smell, or hear either the chemicals or God (these days anyway b/c that comes through the Bible).
I can taste, smell, see and feel a lot of chemicals… Not all though, but i can build devices that can “feel” those where my own sensory equipment is insufficient.
The definition of taste and smell is directly related to chemicals (hence “aromatic groups”).
@cystic:
i can’t believe i’m in a position of wishing FinsterniS was about for a “rational” discussion on this.
:) :D wooohoo …. If he ever reads this, he will either die of a heart attack or be very pleased … (means: good one, and i agree totally with you)…
You seriously believe 4 billion people are going to hell becuase they are simple misguided in you mind? … A cold and heartless god is not really something I’d want to believe in.
Well said, bossk.
… and now for the original…
Here we go.
(skipped the first very confused parapgraph)
The very thought that there could be one omnipotent creature is absurd.
Even though i agree on that, i disagree on your way there. A very simple question would be:
“Can an omnipontent being create a stone that is too heavy for it too lift?”
or something like that:
Can an omnipotent being bring itself into a position where it is not omnipotent anymore?
This looks like a very strong paradox to me.
First, the Big Bang (prevailing theory about the creation of the Universe) created all that is, and ever was.
Using the term “creation” leads to believing there is an external cause.
“Origin” is neutral in that sense and much more appropriate in a discussion about it.
Our galaxy and everything in it, along with all other cosmic entities. Perhaps “God” is no more than some entity created by the Big Bang, …
Second, “God” is a being more advanced than ourselves in some way,
This is only one theory, and a very weak theory. Any Deist will say that god (being the uncaused cause, the creator of the universe) will of course be outside the universe.
I doubt highly that anything could just “be”. that is to say, how could there be one omnipotent being that always was, always will be, and that created everything?
Using the concepts of past, present and future outside the space-time is not valid, or at least leads inevitably to misunderstandings when communicating with beings inside that continuum.
and if it created everything, what was there before it created everything? Was it just there?
A nice analog for this misuse of “time”:
If i ask you “When did you stop to beat your wife?”…… What is your answer? If you have never beaten her, it must be “Never”.
Past, present and future only have a meaning in our space-time-continuum. There is no “before the Big-Bang”, there is no “before in our terms” once you leave the space-time.
SO, the only logical answer is "it ‘was/is/will be’ just ‘there’ ".
These are some pretty deep questions mind you, I dont expect any real answers, I am simply postulating questions.
Actually, i don’t think they are too deep.
Mind you, the Big Bang theory postulates a singulartity being present before existence as well,
No, no, no.
before again. And the singularity is one idea for the BigBang, but it seems it is out-dated.
but the idea of energy existing before existence is more agreeable to me than some tangible, omnipotent being.
Again “before”. You do not understand the theories you use. And as well, a new discussion has started in the very early 90s about the energy coming from the vacuum-mode-fluctuations (in physical terms), which can inflate and show pretty much the behavior that we “expect” of the early universe. The stability can be explained by the asymmetry in nature (in the decay channels of elementary particles).
(cutting a very long paragraph about christianity, with equating “monotheism” to “christianity”…… Read your Zoroaster, Echnaton, and of course Abraham and Mohammed.)
What about polytheistic believers? Does that include them? What about theories of the afterlife? Each religion has its own belief about life (or lackthereof) after death, be it a purgatory-esque existence, heaven, hell, reincarnation, etc. How could it be the same God, if christians believe in Heaven and Hell, and Hindus believe in reincarnation?
Kind of a valid question, but again:
How can you question the existance of the biblical god, when you assume all other gods to be lesser? You seem to be stuck in your christian socialisation here.
A more interesting point to ask would be:
How comes that so many things in christianity seem to be “plagiates”?
Look at:
http://www.atheist-community.org/mithra.htm
(and did you know that the Birth of Osiris was announced by a star and three wise men? and that bread-sacrifices were common in that cult? And that apart from Mithra also the celtic god Cuchulain was born by a virgin, just like Adonis, whose virgin mom is called "Myrrha)
Or, when did Jahwe/God/Allah decide to be a single god, and not the moon-god (or better, goddess Al-lat), or when did Jahwe decide not to be married anymore to Aschera, why is Baal (a god of earth) suddenly evil (even though he fights Jam (the sea) and Mot (the death), to keep his land and keep is flourishing (similar role as Baldur in the nordic myths)? When did Jahwe become more important than El, the ancient canaanite god of creation? Why is God suddenly a trinity, in contrast to the other two?
These (with the above paradox) to me look like more “valid” questions to ask christianity as church and belief.
That’s not called agnostic Yanny, though you may in fact be Agnostic. Agnosticism (not sure if that is what its called) is basically the religion for wimps. Its the best of both worlds. Its is essentially the atheists that are too scared to admit it, or are worried about the small, minute, miniscule chance that there is a God, and that by not believing, they might piss him off. It just means that you do not believe in, or not believe in God.
Because I admit there might be a higher being up there? Science cannot prove a lot of things. For example, the most basic rule of modern science, something cannot come from nothing. Well where did the first something come from?
Like you said Deviant:scripter, I cannot disprove God, for a number of reasons. not least among them, even if I had some irrefutable proof with which to disprove the existence of God (which I do not) I could not convince almost any church goers, as belief would over ride anything i could provide.
A God is not something, by the nature of it, which can be proved. I believe in Evolution and science in general. In fact, you should read my comments in the many evolution threads.
I am not arogant enough, like you and any anyone who insists a God exists, to claim I am right. I simply don’t know, and neither do you.
Wow. I have much to reply too, so let me say right now, I am almost surely going to forget to adress something I thought of while reviewing the posts. That said, let’s begin.
First, I would like to commend you Falk, very well argued, you provided excellent points and counter points.
Yanny Said
For example, the most basic rule of modern science, something cannot come from nothing. Well where did the first something come from?
Indeed, where did the first something come from? I have already posed the very same question. God is certainly something, perhaps albeit something on another plane of existence, so where did God come from?
difernT said:
One could reverse the question and ask you: “How can anyone be so foolish as to not believe in a divine being?” To use what I consider a somewhat weak statement that i haven’t found a better way of saying: “If we’re wrong, we lose nothing. If you’re wrong, you lose everything.” If I’m wrong, I still have no afterlife. If you’re wrong, you spend eternity in Hell.
I dont think you should be arguing on the existence of God if you believe in God simply as a way of covering yourself on the chance he exists. unless you are just playing devil’s advocate. in which case, that argument is implying that i should believe in god just to cover my ass.
I forget at this point who said it, and I have no more time left to look through the posts to find who said they would prefer I use quotes then just “making stuff up” as they put it, but i will concede, this comes from Lewis Black, and although it was extremely funny when performed by him, I think on a base level, it contains a cogent argument for atheism.
(this is not exact, ive been unable to find the actual quote from his standup routine) “I have proof that there is no god, really. Do you want to know what it is? I was in Houston, and I came across a Starbucks. And I looked, and right across from that starbucks, in the same building as that starbucks, there was a starbucks. I looked back and forth, thinking the sun was playing tricks on my eyes, how could a starbucks be right across from another starbucks? who needs that much coffee? I look up at the sky, and think there cannot be a just, decent god, that would allow a starbucks, to be right across from ANOTHER FREAKING STARBUCKS!!!” or something like that :)
First off, love Lewis Black. One of the most entertaining comedians on TV.
deed, where did the first something come from? I have already posed the very same question. God is certainly something, perhaps albeit something on another plane of existence, so where did God come from?
I don’t know. No one does. I don’t know if a God doesn’t exist. I didn’t know I had an extra 50$ in my wallet yesterday either. It was there.
Personally, I don’t care about proof. If there is a God, then there is. If not, well I hope to live a long life anyway.
Well I finally found something more annoying that the Mormons and Jehova Witness’ (sp?) in my town trying to get me to join thier religion, and that is Janus trying to convince me that there is no religion.
And Janus, if you truly wanted to avoid insulting people, I like to think you could have used a better opening line than.
While your belief in God makes you completely wrong, you have a right to wallow in your own ignorance.
ok jazz, first, get it right. i am not arguing that there is no religion, that is absurd, there clearly is religion, look around. i am arguing against the existence of god, something related, but distinct.
second, my opening line was called a joke, maybe you didnt find it funny, but dont get bent out of shape about it.
third, if you find my thread annoying, dont read it. nobody forced you to read it, so dont.
finally, i am not looking for proof on the existence of god, one way or the other. like many other posters on this thread have said, proof is all but impossible to provide. i am simply challenging the existence of a diving being, in a forum for open discussion.
oh, and i forgot to mention, it seems that the poll has slipped in favor of belief in god, and i must say, NOOOOO!!!
