Iraq is a political subject.
Iraq, again
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Imagine you are playing Axis and Allies for the first time. Your playing Russia a friend of yours is playing Britain. He wants to build an IC in South Africa. You don’t think that’s a good idea and tell him so. He calls you a wimp and a weasle. You argue it might be better to build up an AC and transport Infantry to Europe. He is insulted and tells you, your not his friend anymore. You tell him, that you don’t want to offend him and you still consider him as your friend, but if he buys that IC the Axis will most probably win. He spits you in the face and declares war on you.
If I would think that a war against Iraq is the only way to bring democracy and peace to the Middle East, I would wholeheartly support Bush’s stance for war. But I don’t think so.
The first damage is allready done.
The Iraq situation was developing (and was being logistically planned) before North Korea even declared that it was restarting it’s nuke program.
What would you do if Bush set you on a list of three enemy countries and is just about to attack the first one?
Get a threat big enough to prevent him from attacking you as long as his busy with the first country.Bush declared he is going to bring democracy to Iraq. But did he bring it to Afganistan? Karzai is not elected democraticly. And allthough he not a tyran, his effective rule is restricted to the area international forces are defending, that is, Kabul. More troops would be needed, French, German and American, to ensure Afganistance way to a democratic country. But nobody is willing to pay these costs and America prefers to attack the next country. By the way, in most parts of Afganistan, the Shria is still law.
The people in the Middle East are not likely to welcome the “Crusade against Evil”. The last Crusade they experienced was slaughter and opression. Bush’s “diplomacy” failed to convince his allies, how do you think he will convince his enemies?
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The organication which did most for reducing world output of CO2 is th OPEC. Every single drop of oil produced will get burnt in the end. You can research alot about more efficient technologies to burn oil, if you burn more oil you produce more CO2. And this is exactly what the USA are going to do. They are just about to fight a war, which if everything goes according to plan, what I doubt, will destroy the OPEC, encrease the world production of oil and reduce its price.
I’m currently staying in Birmingham, Alabama and I notice the following. There’s hardly any public transportaion in an area of one million inhapitants. Ulm in Germany has 100,000 inhapitants and has a good net of busses. The gas is much cheaper than in Germany. All you can see are pickups and sport cars. Yes, you need air condition in the summer, but Germany is colder in the winter and I don’t need as much heating as I need here. -
Meijing, you make some excellent points. From the sounds of it you have a view of the world different from somebody who grew up in the USA, forgive me if I assume wrong. As a Canadian I and my fellow compatriots see it half way I suspect.
The friend telling a friend about a difference of view is a good one. I’m not sure who spit on who, the US or France :-)
I don’t think war in Iraq is the only way to democracy in Mid East, but it’s the simple way to reduce variables in an uncertain world. Correct or wrong, when the war is over, there will be a net drop in the number of variables. Had this been done 2 years ago we’d be better able to face N. Korea.
N. Korea never stopped it’s weapons program, it merely shifted it from plutonium based to uranium based. The americans long suspected, finally confronted them and were proved correct.
I really wish intelligence was as good as some people think it is. If you suspect somebody might have a weapons research program you could be wrong in either way, they could have a passing interest or have several bombs.
The UN was in Iraq during the mid 90’s during a 4 year program inspecting and never knowing a bio-weapons program was in full swing.
When N. Korea fired a rocket over Japan it suprised everybody. Nobody thought there missle program was that advanced. In fact it was intended to launch a test satelite and failed. 2/3 of the rocket worked and it went past Japan, hmmmmmmmm how far can it go I wonder?
Perhaps it was counter-productive to list Iran and N. Korea, the whole axis of evil thing actually. I think it was a mistake to openly proclaim this.
Afganistan…. Here is a spin. Afganistan was about blood revenge. Afganistan is much different then Iraq. I suspect the US think they can make Iraq into a democracy in 10 years perhaps but not Afganistan in 40.
I think much more should be done in Afganistan, Canada will be leading the operation shortly, I hope we do as much as we can with our limited resources. I also think Canada should do more and so do all my friends, yet our government isn’t spending what it should.
They might not like this ‘crusade’, let’s up they tolerate it and let’s hope the west does a good job of rebuilding. Iraqis deserve a good life just as we all do.
I think N. America does a brutal job on fuel effeciency. The auto makers had/have too much power in this continent. It’s in their interest NOT to have public transit. We now reap the rewards… We use more fuel per person than any other nation on the planet. Don’t tell me you need more AC in florida then Iceland needs heating…
Since the US fuel is typically 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of fuel in Euroland it’s not a suprise that the balance settled where it did here. One strike against rail transport is often the rail companies have to pay for the land and land taxes required for the rails. They also pay fuel taxes that build roads for the competition (cars/trucks) who don’t pay taxes on the land under the roads. In effect, the rail companies are paying subsidies to the competition.
NOBODY has done a study to see what happens if you raise taxes on fuel. Oh people complain about lost money. What, do they burn the tax money? Do they ship it to third world countries? The tax money doesn’t just go up in smoke. You spend it in the US instead of letting OPEC spend it. A bit of pain but then the US trade deficit goes down, you know, the 10 billion dollars or so the US ships abroad every month…
BB
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@Mr:
Does anybody think that those who want to support Saddam like the French….
I wouldn’t say France is supporting Saddam, they want him disarmed just like everyone else. France just doesn’t agree with the U.S. and Britain on how that should be done.
Really? Is France really serious about disarming Saddam?
France is putting it’s contempt for America ahead of international safety. In who’s best interest (besides France) is it to drag this sherade on for another 10 years?
I think the misconception here is what the UN is all about. It’s not like the security council convenes, looks over the evidence, decides what the best decisions is, and then votes. These countries all vote in a way that is best for THEIR COUNTRY. As shall the United States…
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How many folks in europe use a blockheater for their car?
i guess none outside Scandinavia, and i have no idea how many there.
You’re right in that 90% of our people live in 5% of the land. The problem is that 5% is in a 100 KM strip North/South and about a 4,000 KM East-West along the border. Having a relatively round country is much better, you can do a grid of transportation links.
True, i didn’t really think of that. It should be “ok” (means pretty round) in the south-eastern part of Canada, shouldn’t it?
I must admit however, the europeans do know how to live life better. I spent 2 weeks there (Germany and Holland) on business. I never ever saw a drive through coffee shop. The idea of getting a coffee and not savouring it, not enjoying others company but rather driving your car to work coffee in hand is just not right! They take more time of work on vacation and vacation tends to come before work insofar as projects at work tend to be put on hold to allow the people to take vacations when they want rather then when the company wants. North America could learn much from that. He who dies richest still dies. He who dies with money didn’t enjoy life as much as he could have.
Well, the above is changing. Ok, i think there will never as many drive-throughs, but coffee-to-go came to stay… and with the projects on hold, well, i guess that’s stories of yesterday with th eworld being in a recession and Germany trying very hard to be more neo-liberal than others…
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@Deviant:Scripter:
I think the misconception here is what the UN is all about. It’s not like the security council convenes, looks over the evidence, decides what the best decisions is, and then votes. These countries all vote in a way that is best for THEIR COUNTRY. As shall the United States…
Agreed on that.
But will the US stick to US resolutions, or defy them? -
@F_alk:
@Deviant:Scripter:
I think the misconception here is what the UN is all about. It’s not like the security council convenes, looks over the evidence, decides what the best decisions is, and then votes. These countries all vote in a way that is best for THEIR COUNTRY. As shall the United States…
Agreed on that.
But will the US stick to US resolutions, or defy them?Do you mean UN resolutions?
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Saddam, stay in Iraq.
Saddam … UP YOURS!F_k,
The fence defense works if Iraq complies with all resolutions!Talk about full cooperation from Member States … It seems Chirac and France forgot to fully report their middle man efforts to supply Iraq(which has the money for it) with China’s WMD chemicals via Syria(a cash poor nation.) Chirac’s denial does not refute the fact that this occured. You may believe him because he is on your side of the Atlantic Ocean if you wish. I will believe the facts which have been verified through many sources.
Yeah! Supply UNMOVIC with all the facts available to the Coalition. Then there will be no witnesses alive or willing to come forward due to what would happen to those who spoke freely.
[irony] Real smart idea! [irony]
I think the Coalition will save it’s facts for the Baghdad Trials.Free the Iraqi people!
Let them choose socialism, republic, communism or create the government of their own making! -
Well said. :)
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F_alk, to a certain extent there is a ball around the Toronto area. Probably about 7 million people in ball 400 KM in diameter (pret near 25% of Canada) . The problem is the 4 most concentrated populations spots are 500, 1000 and 2000 KM apart roughly. In the balls there is some mass transit but no fast rail links between big metro areas. They are talking about promoting it but…. Since fuel is cheap relatively (Ironic the Canada is the number 1 exporter of oil to the US but it’s more expensive here…) and the government support for mass transit is weak there isn’t a critical mass. Though there is the odd exception. If I worked in downtown Toronto I can drive half-way or 3/4 even, then park and grab the ‘Via Rail’ link into big town.
BB
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Anotehr posting i noticed too late… sorry for that.
I will keep myself shortSo your one and only point is that you feel more comfortable with multilateral approaches to things. Good for you.
I feel more comfortable with bilateral approaches on many things.
I guess we agree to disagree :)
I’ll give you an example of a substance initiative. I actually care about what’s happening in Africa in general, and the state of their economy in particular. I know that the best thing the ‘West’ can do is eliminate all agricultural subsidies, worldwide. This is the only path that will allow Africa to use it’s one natural advantage to its economic advantage. The US has proposed doing exactly that and has tabled a submission to the WTO (this has long been the US position). The EU though is the major impediment to this. EU subsidies of its agriculture sector has long depressed food stuff values, led to artificial subsidies elsewhere, including Canada and the US, and shut out Africa. These are well known facts. I could provide you a whole ton of links, but I shouldn’t need to.
One of teh facts is no fact effectively.
Yes, teh EU subsidizes their farmers. They do so openly.
No, the US do subsidize their farmers as well. They don’t do that in teh open but hidden under taxes etc. (i will look that up for references when i find the time).
AFAIR, the EU once said they would cut down their subsidies if the US stopped hiding theirs and cut it down as well.
And i blame both the EU and the US for wanting and proclaiming “free trade” but keeping their tariffs and subsidies for their own side. Hypocrites on both sides.Why isn’t the world demanding the EU eliminate agricultural subsidies? Arguably, this is one of the most significant substance issues in the world and it COULD be solved. But no one cares.
I guess the world keeps quiet, because they know the US does the same without telling, and everyone else does so. But you are right, it would help a lot, if both sides played with open cards.
Yet, when anyone else proposes something, and the US doesn’t agree, it is big news. It’s those crazy Americans doing their own thing. The evils of unilateralism are raised. Ohhh…ahhhh…its scary.
We have reached a new stage of that. Now it’s not only the US not signing treaties, but now it’s the US using military force to push their interests. That is politics that was common in the Europe before WWI.
Yet, we seem to presume that they should sign these agreements and give up their sovereignty? Why is that? And is it realistic, when we know that all regimes act in their own self interest first.
Well, if you accept that, then the humanitarian reasons for going into Iraq sound like a lame excuse for whatever interests the US really has (just like anybody elses). And signing treaties is not “giving up sovereignity”, well at least not totally. And there are problems in the world which IMHO concern the world and are only solvable by the world and not each single nation.
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@Deviant:Scripter:
Do you mean UN resolutions?
Yup… bad typo…
@Xi:
Yeah! Supply UNMOVIC with all the facts available to the Coalition. Then there will be no witnesses alive or willing to come forward due to what would happen to those who spoke freely.
[irony] Real smart idea! [irony]
I think the Coalition will save it’s facts for the Baghdad Trials.Well, nice thing to first send the Inspectors in (half-heartedly, because the world wants so), don’t support them, and then claim that they have failed and the army has to march in. That would be proof that the US never had any real interest in disarming Saddam, but only in a change of regime.
For the “dead witnesses”: Well, do you expect the inspectors would tell the Iraqi gov’t who told what they read? They could have read it at UN HQ, made a plan and check the things….
I think the “Coalition” has no facts. They had to use faked evidence, they had to omit parts to make the rest sound like “proof”, they had to blindly copy-and-paste outdated Master-thesises… If you call that proof, may i then sell you an investment that provably will give you 123486% interest?Free the Iraqi people!
Let them choose socialism, republic, communism or create the government of their own making!Look up on what SUD and i discuss, just the posting above. And i bet the US will not tolerate any gov’t except a western-style democracy.
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@F_alk:
… first send the Inspectors in (half-heartedly, because the world wants so), don’t support them, and then …
Yeah, and the UN validated itself by agreeing to send 100 inspectors to search(Oops! I mean inspect :roll: )a country bigger than California(between the size of Germany and France). Then they want to increase the number of inspectors to 300. Big freaking deal!
@F_alk:… do you expect the inspectors would tell the Iraqi gov’t who told what they read? They could have read it at UN HQ, made a plan and check the things…
A dictator with between 3 and 50 billion dollars has connections (read bribery)…
@F_alk:I think the “Coalition” has no facts. They had to use faked evidence …
You think? Reads like you’ve dismissed evidence because you read or heard something(no proof.) We are all limited in our arguments to be confronted with the “faked evidence”(a constant Iraq Government complaint) accusation.
@F_alk:… the US will not tolerate any gov’t except a western-style democracy.
After that they can choose any form of government they wish. But
if they start with socialism, communism or a dictatorship
they will have little or no choice. -
And now for more, as the Iraqi government says, “faked evidence” from our friendly IKONOS(see below) satellite …
IKONOS, for those of you who may express disbelief in Limbaugh,
is an independent satellite operations company. -
Nobody should take rush limbaugh seriously (nobody should listen to him better yet). There are a few sayings that come to mind when his name pops up. Through enough mud and some will stick to the wall. Even a broken clock has the right time twice per day…
F_alk, I’m afraid you’re totally wrong about the US agricultural subsidies. There is nothing secret or hidden about it. The US just in the last year passed the largest agricultural subsidy bill ever. We’re talking 180 Billion over 10 years. 18 Billion a year is a heck of a GDP for a third world country. Nothing secret about it! The secret stuff is when they provide loans to the thirld world countries to buy the wheat from the US that is below fair market price so the third world countries farms fail and they have to import what they used to grow. How nice we provide them with loans too… Mind you the EU is the most guilty. They spend more than 100 Billion/year.
http://www.kisanwatch.org/eng/analysis/may2002/an_US_FARM_BILL_2002_1.htm
BB -
@Xi:
@F_alk:
I think the “Coalition” has no facts. They had to use faked evidence …
You think? Reads like you’ve dismissed evidence because you read or heard something(no proof.) We are all limited in our arguments to be confronted with the “faked evidence”(a constant Iraq Government complaint) accusation.
It has been proven that the “evidence for the Iraq attempting to get nuclear material from Niger” (Niger is AFAIR) has been a fake, and that the weapn inspectors were surprised that the secret services of the US and the UK could fall for these rather blatant fakes.
@F_alk:
… the US will not tolerate any gov’t except a western-style democracy.
After that they can choose any form of government they wish. But
if they start with socialism, communism or a dictatorship
they will have little or no choice.Choice on what? Do you notice that you say “let them be free, but not that free?”
F_alk, I’m afraid you’re totally wrong about the US agricultural subsidies. There is nothing secret or hidden about it. The US just in the last year passed the largest agricultural subsidy bill ever. We’re talking 180 Billion over 10 years. 18 Billion a year is a heck of a GDP for a third world country. Nothing secret about it! The secret stuff is when they provide loans to the thirld world countries to buy the wheat from the US that is below fair market price so the third world countries farms fail and they have to import what they used to grow. How nice we provide them with loans too… Mind you the EU is the most guilty. They spend more than 100 Billion/year.
Thatnks for the evidence. And i know, the EU is even worse in the amount of subsidies…
SUD, should you be back and read this: Please consider the following,
you say that multilateralism is less effective than bilateralism. On the other hand, in your examples of failed multilateral treaties, one side you call the “EU”. The EU is not a unit, it’s several countries who found together by multilateral treaties.
So, to prove that multilateralism doesn’t work, you use the “greatest” example of multilaterlism working. -
F_alk, I agree that the ‘evidence’ of the attempt to get uranium from africa was false. However, this does not imply that all evidence is false. It is not a logical conclusion, suspician of evidence is, automatic dismissal of all subsequent evidence is not. Intelligence agencies make mistakes and will continue to do so, I cite 9/11 as one error in judgement.
Iraq has spent about 10 billion dollars over the years on trying to build an atom bomb, they had an atom bomb before desert storm but it was too big to deliver. The French were friendly enough to ensure the uranium they supplies had a good mix of U-235 and U-238 so Iraq could extract weapons grade uranium from the reactor grade uranium thus saving them the time to use a breeder reactor to get plutonium which is not mined out of the ground like uranium but rather is ‘man-made’ so to speak.
As for governments, there are a whack of forms and I suspect anything save dictatorship or communism (little difference in the practical sense) is fine with the US. Nothing wrong with socialism as long as the representation is representative in some way.
BB
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Big Blocky, why do you assume that the US has some kind of problem with dictatorships ? Saudi-arabia and Kuwait aren’t exactly democracies you know. And Israel is led by a guy responsible for the massacre of refuges.
So democracy and respect for human rights is clearly not the most important factor for the US when they deal with other countries.
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MC, I’m not saying the US won’t deal with dictatorys. ‘President’ Mushariff of Pakistan is a dictator who ceased control by a military coup. One can argue as to whether or not Pakistan is better for this, I think it is but it too needs Democracy. The Israeli prime-minster is the leader of a democratic government. But this is all off-topic really.
For Iraq, the US will not tolerate anything but some form of representative government, it was not meant as a blanket statement for US relations with all other countries. Iraq is in effect a state with no government and is not like any other state outside of Africa. Democracy and respect for human rights is clearly going to be the focus of NEW governments that the US will pay to help build.
BB
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F_alk, I agree that the ‘evidence’ of the attempt to get uranium from africa was false. However, this does not imply that all evidence is false. It is not a logical conclusion, suspician of evidence is, automatic dismissal of all subsequent evidence is not. Intelligence agencies make mistakes and will continue to do so, I cite 9/11 as one error in judgement.
True, but if it comes to extremes (and it does here), you are kind of forced to take positions like “it is all true” or “i don’t believe it is right… “(here you usually are interrupted before you can say)”… until it’s further examined”.
You are absolutely correct, not everything is right, not everything is wrong. But the way the “proofs” were prestented made me highly suspicious of anything presented as “proof”. It’s just that too much has later shown to be false, they have made too many mistakes (or lied too often, depending on your stance, mine is a mix)… probably because they themself wanted to believe.As for governments, there are a whack of forms and I suspect anything save dictatorship or communism (little difference in the practical sense) is fine with the US. Nothing wrong with socialism as long as the representation is representative in some way.
Here you show that you are not from the US quite clearly :).
But just for the record: socialism in its (marxist-leninist) definition is a dictatorship (needed to prepare the society for communism, which then again is democratic).
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