@Deviant:Scripter:
C’mon, this is modern day. Border’s change and so do countries. The Palestinians have had plenty of opportunities to live a decent life, but through the rotten leadership they’ve gotten, they’ve been getting the short end of the stick by being led by Arafat.
Borders change… except the border is one of the US friends, allies or lackeys… then it won’t change, and the countries leadership won’t change as long as they keep “being humble” to the US.
For the plenty of opportunities: …hmmmpf…
@Deviant:Scripter:
Well, I’m not so sure about that. :-?
In order to solve a conflict peacefully, both sides have to be willing to proceed without violence.
Unfortunately, no side seems to be willing to be peaceful.
Iraq funding Palestinians terrorists? Well if thats cause for war, Saudi Arabia should kiss it’s ass goodbye.
Hey, I didn’t say Saudi Arabia was any less innocent. And, Yes, funding terrorism is definetely cause for war. One step at a time, however. As far as I’m concerned, you are a terrorist if you’re funding terrorism.
Unfortunately, no side seems to be willing to be peaceful.
That’s my point. :P
Borders change… except the border is one of the US friends, allies or lackeys… then it won’t change, and the countries leadership won’t change as long as they keep “being humble” to the US.
For the plenty of opportunities: …hmmmpf…
Well, sort of. :-? The US just called for full recognition of a Palestinian state by the Israeli’s…
@Deviant:Scripter:
Borders change… except the border is one of the US friends, allies or lackeys… then it won’t change, and the countries leadership won’t change as long as they keep “being humble” to the US.
Well, sort of. :-? The US just called for full recognition of a Palestinian state by the Israeli’s…
Well, that would only be following UN-resolutions, wouldn’t it ? I mean, defying UN-resolutions repeatedly brought us close to war in that area……
I’d like to say that this conflict receives far too much media attention.
I don’t really support either side, I don’t know much about what their fighting about.
I will say that it must be hard to negotiate with people who are willing to strap bombs to their bodies and throw themselves at crowds.
I far as I’m concerned, people like that just want to kill.
Killing is all they want and they justify it by perverting the Islamic religion.
I’d like to say that this conflict receives far too much media attention.
Too true. :o
@F_alk:
@Deviant:Scripter:
Borders change… except the border is one of the US friends, allies or lackeys… then it won’t change, and the countries leadership won’t change as long as they keep “being humble” to the US.
Well, sort of. :-? The US just called for full recognition of a Palestinian state by the Israeli’s…
Well, that would only be following UN-resolutions, wouldn’t it ? I mean, defying UN-resolutions repeatedly brought us close to war in that area……
The UN resolutions have been very anti-Zionist and in some cases anti-Semitic. You have Libya with her fellow Arab countries running the UN Humanitarian Aid, and you expect Khaddafey to look at things from an objective point of view? The UN calls Zionism racist, which is not possible because Jews aren’t a race. Zionism cannot be racist because it does not discriminate against anybody.
May I also remind you, Yanny, you keep claiming it is Israel’s responsibility. Israel did her part of “the deal” in 1948 during hte population exchange when it absorbed all the Jewish refugees from the Arab world, which may I add, were not supported by ay part of the world. No one complained when they were kicked out of their homes and in some cases, tortured by the Arabs. The Palestinians left their homes willingly. The Prime Minister of Syria in 1949 in his memoirs discusses how they left willingly, so F_alk, don’t point to your website saying that the Americans and british didn’t pick up and radio broadcasts of that kind. If they didn’t, then they are deaf because the Arab countries have even admitted it. A census in Beirut claimed that 57% of all the Palestinian Arab refugees left without even seeing an Israeli soldier. The Arabs have been swelling the numbers from the beginning and they didn’t absorb their fellow borthers from the population exchange. Iraq and Syria could have used them, and to make the deal even better for the Arabs, they got all the Jewish homes and property in their lands where they could have placed these refugees. The UN even went as far as to change the definition of a refugee for the specific case of the Palestinians. They made a refugee any Arab who had left Mandate Palestine after living there at least 2 years. Let us not forget that the British promised the Jews the land in the Balfour Declaration of 1917, after they had captured the land from the Ottoman Turks. The British should have kept their word and they tried to compromise by giving the arabs 75% of Mandate Palestine, which they called Trans-Jordanian Palestine, which is modern day Jordan.
The Palestinians received many offers to get land within modern-day Israel but they rejected them. They never complained under harsher rule by Egypt and Jordan. King Hussein of Jordan even killed several thousand of them and there was no complaints. The world didn’t say anything. But the minute Israel gets them and true, their lives haven’t been good, the world starts to complain and condemn. These people are a weapon of the Arabs, aimed to achieve their goals. I can give you some harder proof if you like, just feel free to ask. A good book on the subject is “From Time Immemorial” by Joan Peters. She came to Israel to protest the cruel treatment of the Palestinians and to find evidence that they were not getting the land that was their homeland but after researching for 7 years, she found out the opposite and changed her book accordignly. A third of it is footnotes, ehr bibliography and her resources.
Now, anybody have any other arguements?
Wanna know why it’s Israel’s job to end it? Its a simple moral we learned before age 6. With great power comes great responsibility (well, some of us didn’t learn it till we saw Spiderman :)) Israel is the most powerful, democratic, and civilized nation in the region. They are the only ones who are going to settle this. In addition, Israel is most effected by this.
In America, as well as every real democracy, debates always end with a compromise. Israel is a democracy. Israel must compromise. There is no denying Yassar Arafat is not leading the Palestinians. Instead of dwelling on that like a spoiled child, Israel should just work around him.
I don’t care what you think, if Israel is a democracy, Palestine should be a free and independant state. There is no doubt that if it came to vote, over 70% of Palestinians would choose to cede from Israel. Canada made that offer to Quebec, America gives that offer to all of our commonwealth provinces.
So tell me, why does Israel not let Palestine cede? It would be in the interest of Israel’s economy, national security, and credibility as a nation. Saudi Arabia, and many other Arab states, already said that they would establish diplomatic relations with Israel, as well as reconition of Israel as a true Nation, if Israel were to give Palestine it’s independence.
If Israel does not do this, she is going to see the radicals on the Palestinian side slowly gain more power. This means more dead Israelis, up to the day where the Palestinians aquire a weapon more deadly than a bomb strapped to their chests.
And, Israel’s continued stupidity will keep costing American lives. The best thing we could ever do to improve our national security is make Israel get it’s own weapons.
The UN resolutions have been very anti-Zionist and in some cases anti-Semitic. You have Libya with her fellow Arab countries running the UN Humanitarian Aid, and you expect Khaddafey to look at things from an objective point of view? The UN calls Zionism racist, which is not possible because Jews aren’t a race. Zionism cannot be racist because it does not discriminate against anybody.
So, a country which is discriminated does not need to follow UN orders?
Just like the Iraq, somehow.
And remember, when was the first resolution of the UN set up, for Israel to stick to its borders?
Israel did her part of “the deal” in 1948 during hte population exchange when it absorbed all the Jewish refugees from the Arab world,
which may I add, were not supported by ay part of the world. No one complained when they were kicked out of their homes and in some cases, tortured by the Arabs.
No one complained when any people was kicked out of their homes after the borders were redrawn after WW2….
Look at the polish and germans, who had to go west, with the soviets taking land in east poland, and the polish taking land in east germany.
Look at Pakistan,Bangladesh and India, even though it was more of a “willingly” move there.
The Palestinians left their homes willingly. … so F_alk, don’t point to your website saying that the Americans and british didn’t pick up and radio broadcasts of that kind.
First, i’d like to know what that sentence means, i really do not understand it. Second: If you find “my website” i would be very thankful, as i could sue whoever guy set that up and maybe earn a lot of money with that.
And you asked for more arguments:
What reason ever is there to kill childs?
What reasons ever are there to teach hate (of Palestines/Israelis) in school?
I do not care who started it. I do care who is in a stronger position, and that is Israel, with less people living in poverty (have oyu read the stats on that, both copuntries are down, Israel less than Palestine though). I do care when civilians see the need to become “terrorists” (during WW2 that would have been called “partisans”) and when soldiers kill civilians.
I wish that Canada had an infinitely better track record when it came to dealing with The Jews. I wish that we offered them a home here and they could all settle in Canada. There’s lots of room here, as a rule they’re good people - hard working with wonderful cultural acumen, and very well educated. Of course i wouldn’t want them to establish a new country here unless they already lived in Quebec . . . then that would be kind of funny.
America gives that offer to all of our commonwealth provinces.
So tell me, why does Israel not let Palestine cede? It would be in the interest of Israel’s economy, national security, and credibility as a nation. Saudi Arabia, and many other Arab states, already said that they would establish diplomatic relations with Israel, as well as reconition of Israel as a true Nation, if Israel were to give Palestine it’s independence.
If Israel does not do this, she is going to see the radicals on the Palestinian side slowly gain more power. This means more dead Israelis, up to the day where the Palestinians aquire a weapon more deadly than a bomb strapped to their chests.
And, Israel’s continued stupidity will keep costing American lives. The best thing we could ever do to improve our national security is make Israel get it’s own weapons.
Firstly, about America letting states cede, that is totally untrue. America fought a bloody Civil War for 4 years to keep the south in the union, so don’t talk about America letting provinces or states leave.
You can’t let them cede firstly, because then as a sovereign nation they will declare war and then they will also be allowed to legally import arms, and these terrorists will gain their hands on these arms. Secondly, by letting them cede, they will bring their fellow Arab countries into a full scale war in the region, which they will of course claim is defensive and the world will rush to listen to them.
Do you honestly believe the Arab states would truly accept Israel? They didn’t care about the Palestinians in the Khartoum Coneference and they certainly don’t care now. They put the offer on the table to strengthen the Palestinians’ claim and to try to force the UN into taking actions against Israel. Egypt never wanted Gaza back, she told Israel to keep it when she signed peace. This whole idea of recognition won’t happen because the Arabs are playing political games, as are their new weapons ,the Palestinians.
F_alk, when I said your webiste, I was talking about the website you linked to from the forums that you said you would use as a guide to the Middle East conflict. As for teaching hate against Palestinians, that is not taught in Israeli schools. Israeli schools in recent years have been underplaying many of hte important factors that led to Israel’s creation such as the Holocaust and have moved to more global studies. In the Palestinian schhols, the Koran is taught which is clearly very anti-Semitic in many verses. The math taught there is, “If you have 3 Jews and you kill one, how many do you have left?” They’ve been teachign this kind of math since even before Israel controlled them. The PLO was founded in 1964 to liberate Palestine, which then referred to Israel before the Six Day War. BTW, Palestine isn’t a country so it can’t have stats talking about its population. And partisans attacked German military targets, they didn’t start shooting at civilians living in cities.
India nad Pakistan conducted a population exchange, Hindus for Muslims, and each country absorbed the refugees into itself. But the Arabs did not absorb the Palestinains and now they are throwing that on Israel to settle. A major problem with giving the Palestinians a country is that if you give a man an inch, he’ll want a mile. If you give the msomething, they’ll want everything, as they do today. You can’t work around Arafat, because he’s only one of many who want the whole cake.
Firstly, about America letting states cede, that is totally untrue. America fought a bloody Civil War for 4 years to keep the south in the union, so don’t talk about America letting provinces or states leave.
First, I’m not talking about states. I am talking about US territory which do not have representation in Congress or vote in the Presidential Elections. They are given the option to cede. No one has ever chosen to cede.
So, either give the Palestinians an option, or fully incorporate them into the Government of Israel. Israel taxes Palestine, does not give the provence any representation, nor do they have the choice to cede. The United States does not tax it’s non-state territories (beyond the territory’s own local taxes which are controlled by local lawmakers), and gives them the option to cede. The people of our territories are full American citizens (who do not pay federal taxes but have no representatives in Congress), and carry complete American passports.
Do you honestly believe the Arab states would truly accept Israel? They didn’t care about the Palestinians in the Khartoum Coneference and they certainly don’t care now. They put the offer on the table to strengthen the Palestinians’ claim and to try to force the UN into taking actions against Israel. Egypt never wanted Gaza back, she told Israel to keep it when she signed peace. This whole idea of recognition won’t happen because the Arabs are playing political games, as are their new weapons ,the Palestinians.
Yes, I believe they will. Jorden and Egypt are allies (though questionable, and they are by no means enemies) of Israel. Saudi Arabia is constantly trying to attain peace with Israel.
The math taught there is, “If you have 3 Jews and you kill one, how many do you have left?”
Your either kidding or you believe some Israeli propoganda.
The PLO was founded in 1964 to liberate Palestine, which then referred to Israel before the Six Day War.
The PLO is just a side organization and does not represent the palestinian people.
BTW, Palestine isn’t a country so it can’t have stats talking about its population.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html
2,163,667 (July 2002 est.)
note: in addition, there are about 182,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank and about 176,000 in East Jerusalem (August 2001 est.)
The math taught there is, “If you have 3 Jews and you kill one, how many do you have left?”
Your either kidding or you believe some Israeli propoganda.
Hmmm, it’s kind of hard to take you seriously Yanny, when there are children running through the streets with machine guns in their hands. :-? Is that propoganda too? :roll:
Wrong country. There are not children (beyond maybe a few dozen who are out for the cameras) running through the streets in Palestine. Your thinking countries like Somalia, in East Africa, where civil war has caused the age for someone to take up arms to get lower every year.
First, I’m not talking about states. I am talking about US territory which do not have representation in Congress or vote in the Presidential Elections. They are given the option to cede. No one has ever chosen to cede.
So, either give the Palestinians an option, or fully incorporate them into the Government of Israel. Israel taxes Palestine, does not give the provence any representation, nor do they have the choice to cede. The United States does not tax it’s non-state territories (beyond the territory’s own local taxes which are controlled by local lawmakers), and gives them the option to cede. The people of our territories are full American citizens (who do not pay federal taxes but have no representatives in Congress), and carry complete American passports.
Yes, I believe they will. Jorden and Egypt are allies (though questionable, and they are by no means enemies) of Israel. Saudi Arabia is constantly trying to attain peace with Israel.
Your either kidding or you believe some Israeli propoganda.
The PLO is just a side organization and does not represent the palestinian people.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html
2,163,667 (July 2002 est.)
note: in addition, there are about 182,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank and about 176,000 in East Jerusalem (August 2001 est.)
Yanny, you are being a hypocrite when you talk about America letting a province leave because what your are proposing would make the Palestinians the equivalent of an American state, which cannot cede from the union. About how the Palestinians learn in school, have you not seen any videos of their schools? A movie called “Promises” shows a bit about the Palestinian schools. The problem with making the Palestinians into full citizens is that they will take control of the government and then there would be another Holocaust. Also, let us not forget that Israel obtained these areas in a defensive war, and that according to the Geneva Conventions, a country may keep territory captured in a defensive war. Israel has been willing to negotiaite, but no matter what deal they seem to give the Palestinians, they rejected it. They got two great offers at Camp David and at Taba and they rejected them both. How can you talk about letting them cede, when they wont agree to negotiate nor do they want the part they are being offered, which all in all totals up to 100% of the territory they want.
The PLO does trepresent the Palestinian people. It was turned into the PA, which is the Palestinians’ leadership. Yasser Arafat headed the PLO and now he heads the PA. It’s the same friendly service under a new name. BTW, the peace with Egypt is a very cold peace. At best, Israel would gain a cold peace with the Arab countries but even this is unlikely.
East Jerusalem by no means belongs to the Palestinians. It was supposed to be an international city according to the original UN partition of the land but the Jordanians captured it and held it. The problem with returning it to the Palestinians is that most likely no Jews will ever be allowed to visit the holy sites there. The Jews were supposed to be allowed to visit East Jerusalem according to the 1949 cease-fire agreement with Jordan, who never kept up their end of the bargain but rather would fire on West Jerusalem. East Jerusalem is very controversial. I believe it should remain in the hands of Israel as it is now open to all people under Israeli control. Why risk it being closed off.
Firstly, about America letting states cede, that is totally untrue. America fought a bloody Civil War for 4 years to keep the south in the union, so don’t talk about America letting provinces or states leave.
yeah, you can blame that on the greedy northern industralists.
As for teaching hate against Palestinians, that is not taught in Israeli schools. Israeli schools in recent years have been underplaying many of hte important factors that led to Israel’s creation such as the Holocaust and have moved to more global studies. In the Palestinian schhols, the Koran is taught which is clearly very anti-Semitic in many verses.
Sure of that? How can you claim that you know that in one school they teach hate, and in the other they don’t? How can you claim that the schools in Palestine are not secular, but the ones in Israel are? Would you say Talmud-Thora-students do not go to school (i know i am shifting the age we talk about here, so i get back to younger ones).
I think you are extremely biased towards Israel, which is no wonder.
(Plus with about 55% of kids in Plaestine going to school, how big is the schools influence, and how much more influence can fundamentalists gain when the educational infrastructure keeps being destroyed?)
For an article about hate being taught in schools on both sides, i read an article, and i try to recall where… i will tell you once i remember.
…. And partisans attacked German military targets, they didn’t start shooting at civilians living in cities.
Hmmm… is that enough excuse to kill civilians, children! of the other side?
@F_alk:
As for teaching hate against Palestinians, that is not taught in Israeli schools. Israeli schools in recent years have been underplaying many of hte important factors that led to Israel’s creation such as the Holocaust and have moved to more global studies. In the Palestinian schhols, the Koran is taught which is clearly very anti-Semitic in many verses.
Sure of that? How can you claim that you know that in one school they teach hate, and in the other they don’t? How can you claim that the schools in Palestine are not secular, but the ones in Israel are? Would you say Talmud-Thora-students do not go to school (i know i am shifting the age we talk about here, so i get back to younger ones).
I think you are extremely biased towards Israel, which is no wonder.
(Plus with about 55% of kids in Plaestine going to school, how big is the schools influence, and how much more influence can fundamentalists gain when the educational infrastructure keeps being destroyed?)
For an article about hate being taught in schools on both sides, i read an article, and i try to recall where… i will tell you once i remember.
even one school teaching hate is a problem. Also being Jewish does not rob one of all objectivity, it is possible to see both sides of a situation. I’m amazed at the number of anti-Israeli/pro-Palastinian people out there myself.
Also with 55% of kids in Palastine going to school - how many of these are subjected to “fundamentalist blow-up-Jews” teaching, and how many of the 45% are subjected to the same by their parents? Impossible to quantify, but i’m even more worried about this 45%.
@cystic:
even one school teaching hate is a problem. Also being Jewish does not rob one of all objectivity, it is possible to see both sides of a situation. I’m amazed at the number of anti-Israeli/pro-Palastinian people out there myself.
Agreed, and agreed … and just the opposite here…
Also with 55% of kids in Palastine going to school - how many of these are subjected to “fundamentalist blow-up-Jews” teaching, and how many of the 45% are subjected to the same by their parents? Impossible to quantify, but i’m even more worried about this 45%.
I fear the parents don’t have too much influence in this war-stricken country…. but again i agree
Yanny, you are being a hypocrite when you talk about America letting a province leave because what your are proposing would make the Palestinians the equivalent of an American state, which cannot cede from the union.
Americans in these states that cannot cede are given complete and total American citizenship, including the right to vote. The Palestinians do not have these rights.
About how the Palestinians learn in school, have you not seen any videos of their schools? A movie called “Promises” shows a bit about the Palestinian schools.
Never heard of it, but if they’re math classes are like you claim, it’s all propoganda.
The problem with making the Palestinians into full citizens is that they will take control of the government and then there would be another Holocaust.
So your afraid of Democracy slapping you in face? The age of Imperialism ended with WWII, get on with the times.
Also, let us not forget that Israel obtained these areas in a defensive war, and that according to the Geneva Conventions, a country may keep territory captured in a defensive war.
If you could link me to a copy of the Geneva Convention, I could find half a dozen Israeli violations of it in the past year. And lets not forget, Israel is the only western democratic nation where torture is widespread.
Israel has been willing to negotiaite, but no matter what deal they seem to give the Palestinians, they rejected it. They got two great offers at Camp David and at Taba and they rejected them both.
Both of which would of given Israel complete Military power over the Palestinians, and at their whim they could have tanks in Ramallah, as we see now.
How can you talk about letting them cede, when they wont agree to negotiate nor do they want the part they are being offered, which all in all totals up to 100% of the territory they want.
They negociate, but since Israel kicked out their only leader to want peace, the Israelis have been negociating with guns. Is your country ignorant enough to think going into Ramallah and destroying Yassar Arafat’s compound is going to help fight terrorism? Your just giving terrorists more ammunition.
The PLO does represent the Palestinian people. It was turned into the PA, which is the Palestinians’ leadership. Yasser Arafat headed the PLO and now he heads the PA. It’s the same friendly service under a new name.
The PA has no way to Govern it’s people because every time Europeans give money and resources to build up their infrastructure, Israel destroys it.
East Jerusalem by no means belongs to the Palestinians. It was supposed to be an international city according to the original UN partition of the land but the Jordanians captured it and held it. The problem with returning it to the Palestinians is that most likely no Jews will ever be allowed to visit the holy sites there. The Jews were supposed to be allowed to visit East Jerusalem according to the 1949 cease-fire agreement with Jordan, who never kept up their end of the bargain but rather would fire on West Jerusalem. East Jerusalem is very controversial. I believe it should remain in the hands of Israel as it is now open to all people under Israeli control. Why risk it being closed off.
Simple enough, Make Jerusalem it’s own, independant, country. Like the Vatican.
BTW, the peace with Egypt is a very cold peace. At best, Israel would gain a cold peace with the Arab countries but even this is unlikely.
