Do Jews Have a Right to Representation? Some Think Not.


  • @Anonymous:

    you forgot #3 - i havn’t compared the PQ to Nazis (yet)

    hazzz ??? No ???… but in the topic “Canadian Parties” you said;

    Jacques Parizeau is a lunatic. He and Hitler would have got along well, my friend.

    I bet you cannot give me even one thing Parizeau is doing like Hitler…

    • well, that’s a long way from calling the PQ Nazi’s, and calling Quebec racist, isn’t it?
    • from B’Nai Brith
      In October and November, the Quebec referendum also produced a flurry of bigotry directed at the non-Francophone population of the province. Jacques Parizeau, who was then premier of Quebec, lashed out at “the ethnic vote” for the narrow losses of his separatist forces. In earlier stages of the referendum campaign, Pierre Bourgault, a communications advisor to Parizeau, cryptically warned Quebec Jews of “a dangerous situation” if they openly supported the federalist side.

    The significance of these events cannot be overstated. While the comments made by the politicians or the broadcasters were by no means as virulently intolerant as the charged rhetoric of the neo-Nazi right, their remarks served as signals that expressions of hatred and bias against Jews and other minorities were acceptable in contemporary Canadian culture. For political leaders and media personalities to espouse views hostile to Jews gives a message to the general population: anti-Semitism continues to be part of the canon of our culture. The press and politicians set the tone and terms of debate in our free and democratic state. They have the responsibility to condemn, not to promote, racism. Unfortunately, in 1995, this ideal was seriously compromised.

    • From the World Jewish Congress
      Money and the ethnic vote" were responsible for the defeat of the Quebec separatists in the recent referendum. “We will reap our revenge in our own country”, thundered Jacques Parizeau. While those words resulted in the Parti Quebecois [PQ] chief’s immediate resignation, they continue to reverberate. It has been suggested by some analysts that Parizeau’s speech may have been a deliberate attempt to strike fear into the hearts of the minority population in order to encourage them to leave Quebec.

    • question. Who will this revenge be exacted upon? Upon the 51% who voted “no”? On the handful of minorities who voted no? Do you know why nearly all of the minorities including the Jews and aboriginals voted No? Can you guess? Is it because of Parizeau’s (and the PQ’s) overly kind attitude towards them?
      Please. A German lecturing me on being racist against other caucasians, when i havn’t said anything racist about them, but rather expressed concern over their treatment of minorities.

    #1; PQ is not using money from taxes to promote Separation. (or if they do it’s very new because i am not as informed as i was about quebec).

    #2; Quebec’s economy is doing very well since the PQ is there, search for stats if you don’t believe me

    Their economy has been up and down. They have lost many businesses, including the head-quarters of many large companies which over the years have moved west. They have contained thier economy since the “no” vote, but until then it had been going down the crapper.

    Being Canadian does not mean you are right, saying Parizeau is like Hitler show me how “rational” you are on the subject.

    no, being Canadian does not make me right, however it does make me better informed, and much more affected by these events.
    As for how “rational” i am on the subject, well, i’ll stick by my sentiments with regards to Parizeau. Simply telling me that he is brilliant (something i won’t contest) and his help has been requested by the federal gov’t (big deal - most politicians are idiots - one more or less hardly makes a difference here) does little to make me consider that my previous concerns were irrational. I’m quite certain that many mad, evil, racist, fascist dictators who ruled with considerable power over entire countries in this century might be considered brilliant tactically. That does not make them good, wise, etc.
    “We will reap our revenge in our own country”, thundered Jacques Parizeau.
    Thank God that was in late 20th Century Canada - who knows what those remarks might have provoked in another time (50 years earlier) in another place (say . . . Germany?)


  • @E_G_:

    Anti-semitism is on the rise again.

    I agree … with a spin. Here in the USA we had an attack 4 July, 2002, on an El Al Airline desk, by an Arab Muslim. It got almost no coverage since it wasn’t Isreal attacking poor, defenseless Palestinians or an angry blonde haired, blue-eyed white guy. We were all “on alert” for an attack and I won’t go so far as to say the Arab was part of a terrorist cell, but the gov’t. and the liberal media overdid the non-event non-coverage. Though it might have been covered well on local channels in CA.
    @c_c_:

    And Fin, of course you’re not going to hear of French being aggressive against the English. You are being fed one source of information. Even 60 minutes did a long clip on the intolerance towards English culture in Quebec.

    What’s this ? A Canajin gettin sensationalist news from the US liberal media? Don’t you believe it! :wink:
    @Y:

    16 Million Jews, includes Half-Jews.
    20 Million Muslims, includes Half-Muslims.

    I’d say this was derived from gov’t census/statistics. Most religions do not consider you an adherent if you 1/2 your ancestory was of that faith. I think you’ll find that, in most cases, anyone who is half something and half something else will, in the end, be neither. Unless one of the halves was a secular humanist. :roll:
    @E_G_:

    Separatism in Quebec is basically dead.

    Darn! and I was so looking forward to easy pickins in a coupla short wars. :P
    Let’s see, Add 11 new stars to the flag (50+11=61). 61 stars would best be displayed as 5 rows of 5 stars each, positioned individually between 6 rows of 6 stars each. The blue field may have to go one stripe deeper.
    @F_S:

    Not false at all, jew seem to be the universal …
    I think there is a social reason, not a spiritual one, to anti-semitism, it’s propably why people from all classes and most ideology are “using” the jew as bouc émissaire. Jews are impossible to assimilate, they remain jew, they have a different religion and an interpretation of their people that can be considered a little egocentric. So they are often attacked, for no real reason, they are just jew, the universal bouc émissaire… quite sad.

    Yup. Radical Black (liberal) Americans pick on them “becase they [a smaller minority and rich] keep the Blacks down (out of power/$).” -Louis Farrakhan
    Radical White (liberal and conservative) Americans pick on them ‘becase they are rich and trying to/have taken over.’
    Arab countries use the Jews/Israel as a scapegoat :P for their problems. When, in reality, they need to examine their own governments for a big part of the problems.
    A handful find it easier to blame someone else (Jews, for example)for their problems. One charismatic speaker picks up the clarion call and, voila, you’ve got the KKK, Nation of Islam, Jonestown, Waco (American examples).
    –--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Another day, another war. - Xi


  • Though it might have been covered well on local channels in CA

    Yeah, kinda of sucks. I think a couple of people died before the gunner was shot down.


  • “Arab countries use the Jews/Israel as a scapegoat for their problems. When, in reality, they need to examine their own governments for a big part of the problems.
    A handful find it easier to blame someone else (Jews, for example)for their problems. One charismatic speaker picks up the clarion call and, voila, you’ve got the KKK, Nation of Islam, Jonestown, Waco (American examples).”

    The Jews are blamed by all, not just by the Arabs for the problems of society. In recent times that has gone down, but it returns at times because it was so embedded and a big part of Christian society until the Holocaust.

    I don’t think it matters what Yanny’s Almanac’s information comes from, it’s impossible that there are 16 million Jews in the United States alone. I’ve looked at many sources on this topic, and they all say that there are between 14-15 million Jews in the entire world.


  • maybe the jews had an international breddeing day and there numbers sprouted oup one year ;)


  • Sure… :roll: And when would this be exactly?


  • @Xi:

    F_k, It’s a different kind of Holocaust. A little more subtle.

    @F_k:

    2nd: How do europeans “eliminate the guilt of 60+ years”? Who is erasing names from the monuments?

    Guilt is not my problem … it’s theirs. This is documented in Poland. A Polish girl did research and found the current town mayor and others in power had supportedthe Nazis. Then had removed the names from a monument.

    Ahm,
    so it was the name of the mayor and the “others in power” that were eradicated?
    And you complain about that ???
    Or am i again completely misunderstanding you?

    To the subtleness:
    For me, one of the defining traits of the holocaust was the way it was done: using the industrial complex and abilities for mass-murder. Murder through work, starvation, torturing, “science” and “plain” killing. Another trait is the defenselessness of the victims.
    I can’t see that happening to Israel.
    Israel may be in a “war”, but calling that a “holocaust” makes a good and sharp sword blunt, which should not be in Israels interest.


  • @F_k:

    Ahm, so it was the name of the mayor and the “others
    in power” that were eradicated? And you complain about that ?
    Or am i again completely misunderstanding you?

    Sorry. Let me clarify.
    … Those in power, who had supported the Nazis, had the names of Jews killed in the Holocaust removed from a monument.
    @F_k:

    To the subtleness:
    Israel may be in a “war”, but calling that a “holocaust” makes a good and sharp sword blunt, which should not be in Israels interest.

    Your point is accepted. It’s like the German justice minister (or me) comparing George W. Bush (or Yanny) to Adolf Hitler. Overextension of an example minimizes its value when said example is used appropriately. - -Xi


  • @F_alk:

    @Xi:

    F_k, It’s a different kind of Holocaust. A little more subtle.

    @F_k:

    2nd: How do europeans “eliminate the guilt of 60+ years”? Who is erasing names from the monuments?

    Guilt is not my problem … it’s theirs. This is documented in Poland. A Polish girl did research and found the current town mayor and others in power had supportedthe Nazis. Then had removed the names from a monument.

    Ahm,
    so it was the name of the mayor and the “others in power” that were eradicated?
    And you complain about that ???
    Or am i again completely misunderstanding you?

    To the subtleness:
    For me, one of the defining traits of the holocaust was the way it was done: using the industrial complex and abilities for mass-murder. Murder through work, starvation, torturing, “science” and “plain” killing. Another trait is the defenselessness of the victims.
    I can’t see that happening to Israel.
    Israel may be in a “war”, but calling that a “holocaust” makes a good and sharp sword blunt, which should not be in Israels interest.

    Israel doesn’t call it a Holocaust. It’s the Palestinians and their supporters who claim that Israel is committing another Holocaust against them. The queen of Jordan claimed that.


  • @Xi:

    Sorry. Let me clarify.
    … Those in power, who had supported the Nazis, had the names of Jews killed in the Holocaust removed from a monument.

    Have the erased names been added again?

    Overextension of an example minimizes its value when said example is used appropriately.

    Exactly what i wanted to say, thanks.

    closes this part of the thread


  • @EmuGod:

    Israel doesn’t call it a Holocaust. It’s the Palestinians and their supporters who claim that Israel is committing another Holocaust against them. The queen of Jordan claimed that.

    But that was not the point here. We didn’t look at the Palestinians, at least not in that part of the thread.


  • @F_alk:

    Have the erased names been added again?

    Not at the time this book was printed. (Sorry, I do not recall the book title. Poor documentation acknowledged, however, the author’s point was that even those who are horrified before and after the event may be involved in the atrocity.)
    @X:

    Overextension of an example minimizes its value when said example is used appropriately.

    @F_alk:

    Exactly what i wanted to say, thanks.
    closes this part of the thread

    We closed that point with civility!
    Darn it! I feel icky. :wink: - Xi


  • @EmuGod:

    @F_alk:

    @Xi:

    Israel doesn’t call it a Holocaust.

    … And the Germans didn’t either.

    The Halocaust happened what, 60 years ago? It was a horrible thing, but I don’t think we people today should be paying the price of it. For example, don’t Germans have to pay a heafty compensation Tax to Jews in their country? Falk, enlighten me on that. That tax is unlawful, its not like any German under the age of 80 (who are probably retired and not paying taxes) was part of the Halocaust.


  • @Yanny:

    @EmuGod:

    @F_alk:

    @Xi:

    Israel doesn’t call it a Holocaust.

    I did not post that. It looks to me,
    on quick review, as if E_G_ posted it. - Xi


  • @Yanny:

    @EmuGod:

    @F_alk:

    @Xi:

    Israel doesn’t call it a Holocaust.

    … And the Germans didn’t either.

    The Halocaust happened what, 60 years ago? It was a horrible thing, but I don’t think we people today should be paying the price of it. For example, don’t Germans have to pay a heafty compensation Tax to Jews in their country? Falk, enlighten me on that. That tax is unlawful, its not like any German under the age of 80 (who are probably retired and not paying taxes) was part of the Halocaust.

    I agree, thats silly.


  • @Mr:

    @Yanny:

    @EmuGod:

    @F_alk:

    @Xi:

    Israel doesn’t call it a Holocaust.

    … And the Germans didn’t either.

    The Halocaust happened what, 60 years ago? It was a horrible thing, but I don’t think we people today should be paying the price of it. For example, don’t Germans have to pay a heafty compensation Tax to Jews in their country? Falk, enlighten me on that. That tax is unlawful, its not like any German under the age of 80 (who are probably retired and not paying taxes) was part of the Halocaust.

    I agree, thats silly.


    I agree too. :)


  • Maybe that’s why so many Jews are immigrating back to Germany (or so my German teacher says). Smart Germans. :-?


  • No, I don’t think many Jews are immigrating back to Germany. Yanny, you are judging the compensation as though it were a normal crime. Crimes against humanity are judged differently. In these crimes, the war criminals are still executed even though exceution is not a common practicei n many countries. For example, Israel executed Adolf Eichmann for palying a role in the Holocaust (he made sure the trains would arriveon time). That was Israel’s only execution. General Hideki Tojo of Japan was executed by the Americans for crimes against humanity because he was the Japanese prime minister during World War 2 and due to him atrocities such as the Rape of Nanking occurred. Think of it more like a national debt. It has to be paid off to the survivors because nothing can really repay them for what they went through. Some countries today still don’t pay for their involvement and still haven’t acknowledged what they did. Austria is the classic example. Switzerland is only now starting to return the money of the Jews it laundered during World War 2. If we thought about it your way, why should I as a Canadian pay off the national debt? I mean, it was the generation before me that made this debt so why should I have to pay it off? It’s not like me or my government was responsible for bringing about this debt.


  • @Yanny:

    The Halocaust happened what, 60 years ago? It was a horrible thing, but I don’t think we people today should be paying the price of it. For example, don’t Germans have to pay a heafty compensation Tax to Jews in their country? Falk, enlighten me on that. That tax is unlawful, its not like any German under the age of 80 (who are probably retired and not paying taxes) was part of the Halocaust.

    We don’t pay a distinct tax for that, but the german government pays out of its budget. The payments to Israel are closed, but thanks to the american law system and lawyers, they were about to sue companies that had used forced labor (which includes victims more than just jews). The threat was of course to effectively bankrupt the corporations who had anything to do (like subsidies or just trading) in the US.
    There then was a call to all german companies (even those founded later, or who had provably not used forced labor) to start a foundation which should pay for those claims: Many joined, but not all, still they got the starting money for that foundation, and now it works, and AFAIK they managed an agreement outside court.

    What makes me angry, is that german WWII deserteurs had to fight until our nowadays red-green government was installed, to be washed clean of the “dishonor” of “leaving the troops”. They were silent heros of the WWII, not fighting for injustice, but suffering for that (either by running and hiding, or getting captured by germans, which meant death, or get captured by the allies, which meant POW). They do not get compensation or a pension, unlike former SS-members, who have been trialed after the war but not found “guilty enough not to be able to fight against the newly emerged enemy”, either USSR or US. They receive a pension form the german government, as well as former SS-members from other countries.
    That is what makes me sick!


  • @EmuGod:

    … Yanny, you are judging the compensation as though it were a normal crime. Crimes against humanity are judged differently.
    …If we thought about it your way, why should I as a Canadian pay off the national debt? I mean, it was the generation before me that made this debt so why should I have to pay it off? It’s not like me or my government was responsible for bringing about this debt.

    But compensation should or should not be payed to the generations following those to that this horrible injustice was done?

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