Sink the UK-AC in GT2!?!

[Xi]

We the jury find the defendant guilty
by reason of insanity. Case dismissed.
–-------------------------------------------
Try another option! - Xi

“American liberals and conservatives share much of the same
political heritage. Originally the term Liberal referred to the
political and economic ideal of liberating individuals from
unrepresentative and arbitrary governments. Early liberalism set
in motion patterns for the rule of law that would guarantee
individual rights, representation in law making, access to the
courts, and protection of private property. Both conservatives
and liberals are Liberal in this sense. But, whereas American
conservatives of various stripes have continued to place primary
emphasis on individual freedom, the autonomy of private
institutions, and limits to government in the economic area,
American liberals have more frequently appealed to government to
advance the liberation of individuals from economic, racial, and
political disadvantages in society as a whole.”

• James W. Skillen. The Scattered Voice:
  Christians at Odds in the Public Square,
  ch. 5, Zondervan Books (1990).

---

I agree. History seems to agree with this conclusion.
I’ve read many authors who support this conjecture. - Xi

[Guest]

@TG Moses VI:

1.) Maybe you´re right about russian sub, but for many players there´s to much risk for the much needing, russian fighters.(nearly 33,3% of a rehit)
But Germany is free in decision after RT1: Just do so if Russia had lost this sub.

2.) Chances of German sub survives Gibralta: 1/3 by hiting with sub + 2/3x1/3=2/9 by a missing UK-reshot; together 5/9 chances for survive. (bit more than 50%)
You didn´t calculate the TRN as cannonfodder also.
With some luck in T1 an UK-AC would be in high danger now with Germany keeping 3 attacking units.(maybe keep a second fighter instead of your battleship)

If Germany got bad luck in T1, changing strategys to conquer important parts of africa in T2 is still possible.

3.) If Germany fears an argressive Russian, it´s not necessary to purchase an extra naval fleet. But beware an UK-conterattack in Gibralta with sub, bmb and mayby TRN. So sink the UK-sub if possible or block it only with sub.(3-5 inf more for eastern front)
The exta navals is just needet for an agressive German in africa on T2 together with an agressive German in Atlantik.(if UK decides not to attack them)

@Yanny: Maybe it´s not the best idea but many experienced players here in forum are looked afraid of an UK-AC and a following strong D-day in early rounds of play. Maybe its better to fortress Europe and wait for the attack like a mouse is waiting for the snake, just hoping for japan, but it´s a bit more funny to battle a little in atlantik, provocating some allied mistakes ( 8) washington is not so far :o ).
Maybe all you need is time for Japan, so here the allies need an extra turn to purchase an invasion fleet

[Ansbach]

Just defend the eastern front with all tanks and 4 inf from Germany.

That’s not enough to hold against Russia - they should have 16+ infantry and a few tanks and planes that can hit Germany on Russia’s second turn - you would loose all of your tanks and Germany’s game would be over in 5 turns.

[Guest]

@Xi: Most of strategists are insane (especialy on german side)

[Xi]

Gue_,
I’m the NUT here. Though we are all stragedists. :P

Newb,
Please, read T_6’s “Chances…”, “Results…”,
plus Yan’s and Ans’ mini-posts. Trust them. They’ve
won and lost this game a few times. I’m an old
foot :P at this game and they’ve taught me a few
things.
But, NEVER stop trying new things,bidding or rules
in this game!

“Our character is a composite of our habits.” - Stephen Covey

Doh! - Xi

[Yanny]

Your going to need your airforce to restrict transports in the Atlantic. You must force them to stay within the protection of that carrier. This means no Transports in Algeria, off Canada, or off Karelia.

[TG Moses VI]

.) Chances of German sub survives Gibralta: 1/3 by hiting with sub + 2/3x1/3=2/9 by a missing UK-reshot; together 5/9 chances for survive. (bit more than 50%)

@newby:

Maybe it´s not the best idea but many experienced players here in forum are looked afraid of an UK-AC and a following strong D-day in early rounds of play.

D-Day too early is usually not a good move. They will most likely resupply Russia through Finland.

@Ansbach:

That’s not enough to hold against Russia - they should have 16+ infantry and a few tanks and planes that can hit Germany on Russia’s second turn - you would loose all of your tanks and Germany’s game would be over in 5 turns.

I expect Russia to fall on Eastern Europe like a whirlwind on T2. Remember that’s 16 IPC (roughly 5 inf) spent on an entirerly new navy for the Mediterranean. Without any armor and most of your inf lost, German will fall like a house of cards.

@Newby:

3.) If Germany fears an argressive Russian, it´s not necessary to purchase an extra naval fleet. But beware an UK-conterattack in Gibralta with sub, bmb and mayby TRN. So sink the UK-sub if possible or block it only with sub.(3-5 inf more for eastern front)
The exta navals is just needet for an agressive German in africa on T2 together with an agressive German in Atlantik.(if UK decides not to attack them)

As I said before, without a German navy in the the Mediterranean, there is no way they can reinforce their divisions. Alone (by evac of India and the Middle East) UK can push Germany across N. Africa and deprive Germany of the IPCs it needs to match Russia’s builds. Without Africa, Germany has lost and so are the Axis chances of winning. Since your not even resupplying Africa G1, expect this very soon.

@XI:

@Xi: Most of strategists are insane (especialy on german side)

Germany must remain conservative!

[Guest]

@Ansbach: I imagin you, as russian player, would attack Ukraine in T1, otherway eastern Europe get enought inforcement from there.
You´re right; hard choices now for Germany.

But: Placing 3 German fighters to eastern europe after combat in T1, russia would`nt attack it in T2.

Another, (better) combatmovement variant: Attack Gibralta with bridged inf from France. So you can decide in noncombatmovementphase between inforcing France, eastern Europe or both from italy, splitting your land and air forcements (or sink own TRN without any inf, if combat goes worse for Germany)
Maybe it´s better to reconquer France, holding eastern Europe.(I know it´s a little bit risky, but anyway choices are bad, if Russia playes agressive like Ansbach )

@Yanny: I think there good chances 1 bomber and 2 fighters (if you spend your battleship) would survive on German side after killing 1 AC, 2 BS and 4-5 trn after T2 (if German sub has survive and its Gibralta-fleet is not blocked by vulnerable, allied trn, otherway you´re free to change strategy in T2). Good job i think

@TG Moses VI: Japan would be happy about your UK-strategy in Africa, i think.
And remember: With a bridgedin inf in Allgeria, splitted inf´es in Lybia and Centralafrica you can attack UK-Africa-force with tank and 2 inf nearly anywhere.

You should hold Westernafrica landzones for a few rounds anyway without any inforcement, if you clear the Atlantik instead.

And of course you can change strategy after T1 and conquer africa with trn in Gibralta, but i think UK-AC is as good target as Africa

(Maybe if Russia playes in agressive way leave africa, put inf to Gibralta and/or France, inforce eastern Europe and just play “Rally Dakar” with African tank, but this is another strategy)

[Xi]

N_,
Germany MUST increase income to hold off R,UK, and US
attacks until J comes to relieve the pressure. To do so G
must take Africa. to delay by taking Gibralter is folly.
UK can reinforce AES(Egypt) with 1 FTR from India,
1 INF from Syr/Irq, and 2 INF via TRN from India. This
means on G2 may attack AES as follows:

1 ARM, 3 INF, 1 BMR, 1 FTR(risking Luftwaffe is not advised)
(2-3 hits most likely)
v
1 ARM, 4 INF, & 1 FTR
(2 hits most likely)
NOT GOOD ODDS

Up to 2 FTRs from UK can reach AES in UK2 noncombat
move by way of Karelia on UK1.
–----------------------------------------
Try again! - Xi

“When dealing with Canadians, it is advantageous to seem
to be negotiating from a position of weakness, for when
faced with an abject opponent, they become concession-happy
and will accede to almost anything.”

• Alleyne Fitzherbert, British Diplomat

[TG Moses VI]

@Ansbach: I imagin you, as russian player, would attack Ukraine in T1, otherway eastern Europe get enought inforcement from there.
You´re right; hard choices now for Germany.

Start playing with RR, the Axis are in deep trouble without it.

: Japan would be happy about your UK-strategy in Africa, i think.

The japanese player would be happy, but juding from many games (especially where Germany makes no attempts to reinforce Africa) before, Japan can’t break through to Russia before Germany Collapses.

And remember: With a bridgedin inf in Allgeria, splitted inf´es in Lybia and Centralafrica you can attack UK-Africa-force with tank and 2 inf nearly anywhere.

That’s still one valuable turn loss from the inf as it tries to move to Libya. Not soon enough.

[Guest]

Another, (better) combatmovement variant: Attack Gibralta with bridged inf from France. So you can decide in noncombatmovementphase between inforcing France, eastern Europe or both from italy, splitting your land and air forcements (or sink own TRN without any inf, if combat goes worse for Germany)
Maybe it´s better to reconquer France, holding eastern Europe.(I know it´s a little bit risky, but anyway choices are bad, if Russia playes agressive like Ansbach )

I would never attack Gib. unless the Allied foolishly parked a bomber there. It is not worth IPCs nor does it have any strategic value that I can see, but taking out a bomber could make it worth the effort. A bomber defends at 1, and being worth 15 IPCs it is definitely worth an infantry paratrooper, or infantry by transport (if I have one) as long as it doesn’t interfere with my overall stategy. I would also possibly back up the attack up by a fighter or the battleship (if it still exists) free shot to make certain I killed the bomber, with any lucky rolls taking out cheap 3 IPC infantry.

[Yanny]

However, there is a good, a very good, chance that your airforce is going to be hit hard by the attack. Those transport hits are going to add up. Your going to have at least 4 hits per combat round.

[Guest]

@Anonymous:

I would never attack Gib. unless the Allied foolishly parked a bomber there. It is not worth IPCs nor does it have any strategic value that I can see,

The strategic value is that it denies fighter access from british mainland to africa and the mediterranean, once you have placed an Inf in the two western north african countries (Algier? Marocco?).
If done in turn one ( with the Inf on the transport going into Algier, and the one Inf there marching south, you have quite an efficient block against allied ad-hoc reinforcements in africa.
If the british player decides to strengthen africa with his indian troops, well i don’t mind that, that only helps my japanese ally to waltz through.

[Ansbach]

The Germany Turn 1 move F_alk mentioned is a conservative move used to keep the German navy around for another turn. If Germany takes Gibraltar, then the Western Med. SZ (and German navy) is safe from UK fighters on UK1.

“If the british player decides to strengthen africa with his indian troops, well i don’t mind that, that only helps my japanese ally to waltz through.”

Japan might not mind it, but Germany certainly does! :(

Usually the game is won or lost in Africa - 9 times out of 10 a UK1 counterstrike in Africa is a better move than defending India on turn 1…
If I’m the Allies I want Germany out of Africa ASAP!

Just my 2 cents.

[Guest]

@Ansbach:

The Germany Turn 1 move F_alk mentioned is a conservative move used to keep the German navy around for another turn. If Germany takes Gibraltar, then the Western Med. SZ (and German navy) is safe from UK fighters on UK1.
…
Usually the game is won or lost in Africa - 9 times out of 10 a UK1 counterstrike in Africa is a better move than defending India on turn 1…
If I’m the Allies I want Germany out of Africa ASAP!

Keeping the navy alive let’s germany shovel at least two other Inf into Africa, plus maybe even more if transpot and BB stick together (plus maybe an occasional offshore bombardment).

[Guest]

first @Ansbach again: 16+ inf against eastern Europe means a weak Caucasus, so I would prefer an agressive conterstrategy against Russia now: Needing transported inf in Caucasus/Ukraine the only battleship-job is to sink UK-battleship and keep UK-fighters out of Karelia for 2 rounds of play.
I wouldn’t play above stategy now, so don’t discuss it here

@Xi:
1.) without taking africa you have to imagin there’s nearly no pressur from UK or US to Europe meanlands for 3-4 rounds of play, if you sink UK-homefleet a second time.
And Japan would be faster, if UK deforces India

2.)If you change strategy in GT2 to take africa attacking AES (only if UK-sub doesn’t block next to Italy) you have to ad one German inf more. (1 Lyb, 1 Centralafrica, 2 by trn from ALG and Gibr.)
Maybe (I don’t know rules here) you can ad one Battleshipshot sinking sub with other air/naval units first.

But I think I wouln’t attack them now if they as strong as you force them, I prefer to sink UK-sub and inforce western africa first.

@TG Moses VI:
1.) With RR all German strategys are much more easier. (but my Axis&Allies-friends including me wouldn’t allow it, we just play it 4-5 times)
With RR Germany got 5th fighter to attack AES in T1 or somthing else.
You recive 1 fighter attacking UK-homefleet with Baltic-sub, and you can transport some inf between Finnland and European Meanland. Now I’m nearly sure this will normaly work for the beginning of Game.

2. Cause we played only with allied factories in asia I’ve got no experience about Japans speed without them. So I respect your Opinion about it. Maybe just try it with extra navals in italy and against defencive russian player.
   But imagine: Would you as UK-player purchase an AC, if a strong german naval- and airforce is in reach. If not Germany can strike into africa now.

3.) ALG-inf can transported with Gib-one together imeadeatly T2, or conterattack UK-tank, if it had attacked lonly G-inf in Lybia or Centralafrica

@guest:
In this strategy the value of conquering Gibralta is to keep UK fighters away from my battleship.

@Yanni:
Strongest arguement of my strategy is, you can change strategy easily, if luck wasn’t yours in T1.
But together with sub, trn, bs, bmb and 3 fght against ac, 2 fght and 2-3 trn there´s also a realy good chance of German suvive with bmb and 2 fght.
Remember Germany has to risk somthing to win the game!

@Ansbach: If strategy works I’ll try to win game by blocking UK/US reaching France/Norway/Karelia or somewhat, not in africa at al costs

@ F_alk: Yippieee someone on my side
Little point: ALG-inf is not going south, it goes sout-east to front AES and Lybia in one time

[Xi]

N_, sorry. This time I’ll take 20 years of playing various scenarios and levels of players, not to mention making one or two(SHUT UP, guys!) mistakes of my own. If you wanna get stuck in a rut, I won’t stop ya. - Xi
–----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“When God sneezed, I didn’t know what to say.” - Henny Youngman

A moment of levity - Xi

[Ansbach]

Newby: Your Germany Turn 1 strategy is not that crazy. What is total suicide is you Germany Turn 2 plan of hitting the fleet again. The German battleship is probably the single most important piece Germany has at the beginning of the game, and it is the Allies #1 target. It is so important that no one will even mention how important it is because it’s a given that you won’t have it very long! :lol: Sending it to England is just making the Allies job easy. Losing your planes is just as bad - they are vital to the defense of Germany and you can’t afford to replace them.

Also, btw - the US transport can just move to the AZO sea zone on US1 and then the German navy can’t hit the North Sea. But I wouldn’t do that because I want to sucker you in to hitting the fleet.

The main problem is that you are only looking at the short term situation and not at the long term one. Think of Germany’s position in 5-10 turns, not in 1-2. Germany has to have the extra income from Africa to be able to survive. Germany has to have it’s airforce to defend against a 3-pronged attack from the Allies - it can’t afford to replace fighters.

Regarding Russia Restricted: Without RR, an experience Allied player can win about 95% of the time. Even with RR, the Allies can win about 80% of the time so you have to play with bidding, but that’s a whole new post… it’s not important to play RR if both sides are relatively new to the game, but you might want to start anyway so that everyone get used to playing that way.

[TG Moses VI]

Keeping the navy alive let’s germany shovel at least two other Inf into Africa, plus maybe even more if transpot and BB stick together (plus maybe an occasional offshore bombardment).

You NEVER want to seperate your transport and BB.

The Germany Turn 1 move F_alk mentioned is a conservative move used to keep the German navy around for another turn. If Germany takes Gibraltar, then the Western Med. SZ (and German navy) is safe from UK fighters on UK1.

This isn’t so much of a problem if you play with 2-hit BB’s. Most of the time UK fighters fly to Russia instead.

But imagine: Would you as UK-player purchase an AC, if a strong german naval- and airforce is in reach. If not Germany can strike into africa now.

If it means the destruction of Germany’s navy and airforce with it, I definately would. The Allies can easily replace its losses, but once Germany loses its ftrs, it can never do so again.

[Yanny]

Never, ever, ever , ever, ever, ever, ever make a strategy based on luck. They always fail.

I always assume the worst case scenario when planning ahead.