Need Help to Finalize HBG Japan Set!

[WARRIOR888]

Gentlemen,
Here is another Japanese WWII pro-type heavy tank.
O-I Super Heavy Tank  The picture of this one it was almost the size of a German King Tiger II or a JadgTiger.

This Japanese prototype was a multi-turreted tank equipped with a 105 and a 45mm cannon,plus three 7.7mm machine guns.The maximum thickness of the armor was said to be around 200mm

According to Japanese sources the prototype(estimated weight 120 tons) was fielded in Manchuria for operative tests.

http://www.historum.com/war-military-history/36877-super-heavy-tanks.html

Anyone have any other ideas?

WARRIOR888

[WARRIOR888]

Gentlemen,
Here is another one, only one pro=ytpe built, no picture found yet.

Type 95 Heavy Tank
Type Heavy Tank Place of origin Japan
Specifications
Weight 26 t Length 21.25 ft.Width 8.8 ft. Height 9.5 ft.
Crew 6
–-------------------------------------------------
Armor 12-30mm
Main armament 1x 70mm tank gun
Secondary armament 1x 37mm tank gun, 2x 6.5mm MG
Engine Aircraft Type 6 cyl liquid cooled 290hp
Suspension Leaf-Spring
Speed 13.7 mph
WARRIOR888

[Yavid]

the problem with all 3 of those tanks is basically the same. they were prototypes. and other than the o-1 they weren’t heavy either. the chi-ho had thinner armor and smaller gun than the Sherman. the type 95 had armor almost half as thin as the stuart with again a smaller gun than the Sherman. And it was slow to top it all off.

I still feel we would be better off using a more iconic japanese tank such as the Type 97 Chi-Ha over prototype, one of a kinds, or dreams of an engineer. IF japan needs a heavy tank let it just be the tiger from '41 game and let HBG focus on iconic pieces that are missing or almost made the cut. I’m not a fan of the fact HBG is using the KV-2 or the Ju-488 because they have that missing X factor (mass production) that would have made it an iconic piece. I would have much much much rathered a KV-1.

I’ve heard they are only planning on 7 more sets total and after it’s all said and done I don’t want to look back and say why did they make this but this is still missing. Example I don’t want to say why a KV-2 but no B-29? Doing any of the tanks you meantioned would lead to why the O-1 but no V-2?

[WARRIOR888]

Yavid,

Understand that I am just pointing out that the Japanese were actually working on heavy tank designs.
I have even found another pro-type of a Japanese Tiger. No data but an excellent drawing.  The Germans actually were transfering several Panthers, Stug IIIs, Stukas and 88 AA guns to Japan.  The ship carrying the Panthers and 2 crated Stukas was sunk the  2 ea 88 AAs and Stug IIIs actually made it.  So there was a good chance that several Tigers could have ended up in the Japanese Army.
I am not suggesting FMG or Coach build any of them.
So if we end up using an OOB Tiger to Get a Mogami, Tony or something else actually iconic it is ok by me.

WARRIOR888

[Lunarwolf]

@WARRIOR888:

Gentlemen,
Here is another Japanese WWII pro-type heavy tank.
O-I Super Heavy Tank  The picture of this one it was almost the size of a German King Tiger II or a JadgTiger.

This Japanese prototype was a multi-turreted tank equipped with a 105 and a 45mm cannon,plus three 7.7mm machine guns.The maximum thickness of the armor was said to be around 200mm

According to Japanese sources the prototype(estimated weight 120 tons) was fielded in Manchuria for operative tests.

http://www.historum.com/war-military-history/36877-super-heavy-tanks.html

Anyone have any other ideas?

WARRIOR888

this kinda looks like the french heavy tank

[Variable]

@Lunarwolf:

@WARRIOR888:

Gentlemen,
Here is another Japanese WWII pro-type heavy tank.
O-I Super Heavy Tank  The picture of this one it was almost the size of a German King Tiger II or a JadgTiger.

This Japanese prototype was a multi-turreted tank equipped with a 105 and a 45mm cannon,plus three 7.7mm machine guns.The maximum thickness of the armor was said to be around 200mm

According to Japanese sources the prototype(estimated weight 120 tons) was fielded in Manchuria for operative tests.

http://www.historum.com/war-military-history/36877-super-heavy-tanks.html

Anyone have any other ideas?

WARRIOR888

this kinda looks like the french heavy tank

You gotta scroll down the page pretty far. It’s titled as an O-I.

[WARRIOR888]

@Lunarwolf:

@WARRIOR888:

Gentlemen,
Here is another Japanese WWII pro-type heavy tank.
O-I Super Heavy Tank  The picture of this one it was almost the size of a German King Tiger II or a JadgTiger.

This Japanese prototype was a multi-turreted tank equipped with a 105 and a 45mm cannon,plus three 7.7mm machine guns.The maximum thickness of the armor was said to be around 200mm

According to Japanese sources the prototype(estimated weight 120 tons) was fielded in Manchuria for operative tests.

http://www.historum.com/war-military-history/36877-super-heavy-tanks.html

Anyone have any other ideas?

WARRIOR888

this kinda looks like the french heavy tank

It does have similar charectristics to a French Char 2 C which actually 10 were built and used in operations.
The Germans didn’t have anything even close to it.

WARRIOR888

[Lunarwolf]

LOL I got played. it looked like it was because it was the french heavy -_-. after looking at it i still feel it’s not as needed as the other pieces that were mentioned. plus it looks more like a moving fortress than a tank.

[WARRIOR888]

Gentlemen here is another idea we can use for the Japanese.
How about using a ME-262 jet fighter for the Japanese Air Force?

U-234 on the other hand is one of the most popular examples of an aborted Yanagi mission in May 1945.[65] Amongst others, her cargo included examples of the newest electric torpedoes, one crated Me 262 jet aircraft, a Henschel Hs 293 glide bomb, and 560 kg of uranium oxide.

WARRIOR888

[Variable]

With the now 2 different oob submarines (we get a new one in AA41), do you all think we could put off doing the I-400? I’m looking for ways to fit in some of the more popular choices for Japan without sacrificing any unit types.

[WARRIOR888]

Variable,

I vote we give up the I-400 for something else we really need.  I have at least 100 each I-400s and there were only a small number built.  So you have my vote to add something we really need for the Japanese.

WARRIOR888

[Lunarwolf]

i was going to say we dont really need the sub for now for the more important pieces

[Spitfire38]

@Variable:

With the now 2 different oob submarines (we get a new one in AA41), do you all think we could put off doing the I-400? I’m looking for ways to fit in some of the more popular choices for Japan without sacrificing any unit types.

Yes, I am fine with that. In fact, please!

[Variable]

Okay, I think that’s enough votes to postpone the I-400.

Everyone have another look at the non-bolded portions of the list. Let me know if there is anything that seems wrong or you have a specific objection to. If there are choices listed (like the fleet carrier) please put a vote in for your favorite. I’d like to lock up everyone’s choices in the next few days.

Thanks again everyone for your valuable inputs!

[Yavid]

Japanese Supplement Set:

SNLF Marine
Type  94 6-wheel Truck
Type 92 Armored Car
Type 1 Ho-Ha Mech Inf
Type 97 Shinhoto Chi-Ha Medium Tank
Type 3 Ho-Ni III Tank Destroyer
Type 4 Ho-Ro SP Artillery
Ki-57 Transport Plane
Ki-43 Oscar Early War Fighter
Ki-61 Tony Army Fighter
D3A Val Dive Bomber
B5N Kate torpedo Bomber
G8N Heavy bomber
Kagero Destroyer
Nagara Light Cruiser
Mogami Class Heavy Cruiser
Chuyo Escort/Light Carrier I would prefer the Shoho but i’m 60/40 for the Shoho so if i’m out voted it’s ok
Kaga or Taiho or Unryu Fleet Carrier To me it’s 55/45 with the Unryu but the Kaga is 2nd Taiho isn’t in the race
Fuso Class Early war Battleship
Nagato Class Battleship
Yamato Class Heavy Battleship not needed but i understand

OPTIONS FOR CONSIDERATION:
Infantry Carrying Flag I would like if this is included also so it can be a paratrooper
Shoho Light Carrier instead of Chuyo Escort Carrier
A6M Zero “Zeke” Navy Fighter
Ki-100 Late War Army Fighter

Your list from page one looks really good. The notes next to units is my vote

[WARRIOR888]

Variable and Coach, first thank you for the privlage you have given us in this process.  I know I can speak for just about everyone here we appreciate and the fine work you do.
Japanese Supplement Set:

SNLF Marine
Type  94 6-wheel Truck
Type 92 Armored Car
Type 1 Ho-Ha Mech Inf
Type 95 Ha-Go Light Tank Go with this for the light tank _Type 97 Shinhoto Chi-Ha Medium Tank
Type 3 Ho-Ni III Tank Destroyer
Type 4 Ho-Ro SP Artillery
Ki-57 Transport Plane
Ki-43 Oscar Early War Fighter
Ki-61 Tony Army Fighter KI-100 for the Army Fighter
D3A Val Dive Bomber
B5N Kate torpedo Bomber
G8N Heavy bomber
Kagero Destroyer
Nagara Light Cruiser
Mogami Class Heavy Cruiser
Chuyo Escort/Light Carrier Shoho for a light carrier since it truly was a light carrier.
Kaga or Taiho or Unryu Fleet Carrier _Kaga for Fleet carrier since Taiho is not even in the runn_ing
Fuso Class Early war Battleship
Nagato Class Battleship
Yamato Class Heavy Battleship

Units in BOLD are not negotiable. Unit TYPES in Bold are not, but the sculpt itself is. These must be done.

OPTIONS FOR CONSIDERATION:
Infantry Carrying Flag
Shoho Light Carrier instead of Chuyo Escort Carrier
A6M Zero “Zeke” Navy Fighter
Ki-100 Late War Army Fighter

WARRIOR888_

[Yavid]

I forgot to ask. I’m counting 21 pieces for the set. and HBG normally does two of everything with a total set number of 28. Now by my math that means either Japanese set will be a large 42 piece set or it will have one of 14 pieces and 2 of 7 so it fits into the 28 piece set. I guess my question is what’s the thinking here? Are we getting a 28 piece set with alot of variety or are we getting a large 42 piece set at an increased price?

[korruptkaos]

So if the Sub is gone is it possible to still get the Ki-100 and the newer Zero added in?

[knp7765]

@Yavid:

I forgot to ask. I’m counting 21 pieces for the set. and HBG normally does two of everything with a total set number of 28. Now by my math that means either Japanese set will be a large 42 piece set or it will have one of 14 pieces and 2 of 7 so it fits into the 28 piece set. I guess my question is what’s the thinking here? Are we getting a 28 piece set with alot of variety or are we getting a large 42 piece set at an increased price?

Variable said earlier that the Japanese set will either be 1 large set, which of course will cost more, or perhaps 2 small sets. That hasn’t been decided just yet. Whichever way they decide to do it, HBG wants to get all the pieces made at the same time.

[DrLarsen]

@knp7765:

As for a Japanese Heavy Tank piece, I think you guys are kind of missing the point. Yes, Japanese tanks (and Italian Tanks for that matter) were a cut below similarly classed tanks in Germany, Russia and America. The Type 97 Chi-Ha, Japan’s medium tank, was totally outclassed by the M-4 Sherman and was just barely comparable to the M-5 Stuart (America’s Light tank). Heck, the Type 95 Ha-Go, Japan’s light tank, had armor so thin it could be penetrated by .50 caliber bullets and even .30 caliber AP ammo. Pretty pathetic for an “armored” vehicle.
The point I’m trying to make is this isn’t necessarily “Real World” land where we have to stick to the actual statistics and capabilities of the pieces represented. This is “Axis & Allies Game” land where we can fudge a little on actual stats yet have the pieces be representative of the country that made them. For example, in our current OOB pieces, USA has the M-4 Sherman while Germany has the Pzkpw V Panther. In actual battle conditions, Shermans really couldn’t stand up to Panthers. In fact, neither could Matildas. Also, the Type 95 was NO match for a Sherman, T-34 or Matilda. However, for game purposes, ALL tanks attack and defend at 3. So in our games, a British Matilda could end up blasting a German Panther right off the map. A Type 95 could reduce a T-34 to scrap.
So, if we get a Japanese (or Italian) tank piece that was considered “heavy” by them, even though it barely compared to “mediums” for other countries in the real world, for the game we could decide that this tank had thicker armor and a bigger gun. The main reason that I would like to see a Japanese Heavy Tank piece is because I don’t want to use a Tiger in Japanese color. I want something that LOOKS like it is Japanese made. Just like we use Carro Armatos for Italian tanks. In real life they were outclassed by most Allied tanks but at least they LOOK Italian. I can always pretend they were a little tougher than they actually were for game purposes.
That being said, I also understand that it would take a lot of time trying to research a sculpt for a Japanese Heavy tank and that time could be better spent filling that slot with something else that might be more useful as far as Japan is concerned and more accessible to research. So, if space in the set is limited and a Japanese Heavy Tank needs to be sacrificed for another piece that might work better, then I would be cool with that. I would like to see all nations get heavy, medium and light tanks, but I think most people are right that Japan probably wouldn’t use heavy tanks like other countries.

I think K’s making a fairly reasonable point, here.  What’s more, it neither takes that much research to find a Japanese heavy tank protoype that truly “looks” Japanese, nor is the pool limited to ridiculous multi-turreted steampunk monstrosities.  Options include the Chi-Nu (rather light, but heavy by Japanese standards, and built in modest #s to defend vs. invasion) and the Chi-To and Chi-Ri prototypes.  All three of these would have been well within Japanese production capabilities earlier in the war if they’d been priorities, and though all three are really more “mediums” by German/ Russian/ American standards, each would be a solid step up from the Chi-Ha Shinhoto and 2 steps up from the oob type 95.

All this is not to say that I’m fully convinced that this should be a priority.  I’m just saying that it’s a reasonable approach to take, depending on where the priorities end up.  For instance, I’d still rather have 3 BB options than 3 tank options for Japan.  But if both are possibilities, I think I’d sacrifice a 3rd fighter for a 3rd tank…

Oh, and when HBG gets around to doing Italian stuff (which is admittedly a lower priority), I sure hope he does the P40, which fills the same slot for Italy that one of the 3 above-mentioned tanks would for Japan.