Are you proud of your country ?


  • Good point. But long term, look where Russia is now.


  • Hitler hated Jews and Catholics, mainly because his mother was Jewish and his father was Catholic. The second largest group persecuted by the holocaust were the Catholics!

    Nazis, WHite supremacists, don’t like Catholics. They don’t like Orthodox either. They only like protestants (like Crypt) Not to say that Nazis are followers of Christ at all, I have heard references that they held many pagan beliefs, which is in addition to them persecuting Christians and not following Christian teachings.

    CAtholicism is not responsible for Hitler.

    YOu could maybe say that France is responsible.


  • @CC:

    Come on Moses, i’m not that ignorant. British intelligence “leaked” documents to the Germans suggesting that America would be declaring war on Germany. Hitler declared war on America pre-emptively. I believe that Pearl Harbour was unrelated.

    Yep, leave it to those “sneaky” Brits to leak documents to the Germans. Kind of like the Zimmerman Note, no? However, I’m not exactly sure how the above comment relates to “America wouldn’t even have been in WWII if Germany hadn’t declared war on it.” There are many reasons why Germany declared war on US: Rome-Tokyo-Berlin Axis, Victory Syndrome, Active Conflicts between German U-Boats and US Destroyers, US Breaking “Neutrality” Laws, and other factors. As for Germany declaring war “preemptively,” I’m not exactly sure what you mean by this.

    At the same time, America was quite hesitent to enter WWII, and would not have landed in France earlier than 1942.

    Plausible, though if British called a D-Day Invasion a no-go, chances are America would not have “gone it alone.” In regards to the earlier statement, it was well known about America’s isolationist statement and there is creditability in it. Should we have intervened 1939? That remains to be debated. However, please read more America’s history before WWII (fighting the Great Depression, resentment of WWI, ect) before commenting on our “hesitancy.” I will say that the majority of Americans did support a form of “active neutrality” that might’ve resulted in war. Then there is the American Constitution itself, which does not permit US to enter a war unless declared upon, attacked, or invaded.

    “No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.” - Article I, Section 10, Clause 3

    ouch. You hurt me when you say that Moses. The fact is the world is getting smaller. This begs the question - what kind of Europe would the US have preferred dealing with - a Jewless/Slavic-less etc. dictatorship governed by a crazed lunatic? Or Hitler’s Germany . . . ( )

    Sorry, I have no idea what you’re saying. I merely wanted an answer to your assertion “It took a declaration of war against the US before they finally gave more than token assistance to the Allies.” I brought out America’s cash and carry, lend lease, destroyers for bases, Naval Coverage into active war zones, et al. So far your response has been less than fulfilling.

    Fair enough. Much of the developed world is perhaps not so obvious about it - perhaps America’s wealth and power exaggerate this phenomenon.

    I can only give you a penitent response that as an American and a Communist, I will try harder in the future.

    Well, as i said, there was some token assistance given early on, but only as much as Roosevelt felt was politically feasible. Too many Americans did not want to be involved, and both German elements (the 5th column) and the “American-Firsters” were quite active in delaying the American foray into the war.

    Again, Congress kept Roosevelt’s hands tied behind his back when the war broke out. He tried the best he could and as the war continued (and the Allied situation worsened), the American people began to support Roosevelt’s daring actions more and more. By 1941, many Americans were supporting any means short of war.


  • My deviant friend forgets about the massive population and industrial capacity of the Soviet Union during the war. Another product of feelings of western superiority and the cold war; the only reason the Russians where able to do so well against the Germans was becuase they had superior numbers and got rather lucky, right? Yet another reason to distrust western historians (although they seem to be getting better).

    True, USSR was of immense help to the Allied cause – that is undeniable. Allied victory would’ve still been possible without them, though those cost would’ve ranged in the many millions of Allied lives lost. However, you are also forgetting the product of “Eastern Superiority” feelings after the Cold War. Both Western and Russian history text are incorrect. It is a Western MYTH that the Russians were ONLY able to defeat to Germans due to “luck” and “superior numbers.” Superior numbers were of no doubt an overwhelming help, but without adequate Russian training and equipment [which many Western historians tend to deride], those numbers wouldn’t be as advantageous. But like Bossk said, modern Western Historians are much more truthful and objective about the Eastern Front (due in large part to the end of the Cold War and the opening up of previously classified Soviet achieves). Likewise, it is an Eastern MYTH that Russia did not liberate almost all of Europe (including France), while the Americans only liberated Italy.

    I’ve read that the Russians killed 80-90% of German forces. Indeed this may belong under the “communism does not work” thread as communist ideals contributed greatly to the Russian war machine - a populace devoted to the strength of the soviet union worked well - both in the factories and in the trenches - some might credit communism with Russia’s successes against Germany (not only the cold weather and thinned resources . . . ).

    The notion of the populace banding together and working feverishly is communistic, though communism is most beneficial in times of peace. Look what the Cold War did to the Soviet Union as a key example.


  • Well the fact hitler was christian does not mean all christian were facist, i just answer about your hateful comment about europe…

    I am sorry to break some of your dream about a clean Catholic church, but hitler WAS a Catholic. Sure some will say he was an Atheist (a very funny one), other will say he worship ancient god, backing up their thesis with some obscure conversation or comment… but the fact remain Hitler was, his hate of the jew was not purely strategical nor emotional. In “Mein Kamf” (My fight) he clearly said he was a catholic and his action as a leader can only confirm that his conviction were in some part religious.

    “Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord’s Work.”

    “Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews … The work that Christ started but could not finish, I – Adolf Hitler – will conclude.”

    Sure catholic don’t want to claim hitler as follower of their faith so they prefer to blind themself with mere illusion (like they always do by my opinion). Anyway i did not want to argue with a catholic with such thing but if you are unable to see that because of your faith, then other catholic risk to make the same mistake. I know Stalin was an Atheist, i don’t want to fall into somekind of fanatism…

    …And even the church itself is not clean in the second World War, some document are still inacessible for the public…

    Anyway i am making some distinction you are not, a christian is someone that believe in christianism. A christian is rarely a pure incarnation of christianism so you cannot blame christianism for all the crime of the christians even if christianism is clearly in accordance with the christian’s action. I am sure the basis of Christianism would not have endorse the crusades nor hitler.

    YB you are the stereotypical American… christians, conservative, you hate france without even knowing why, overtly nationalist…

    I think i know what you mean, as i am a human being first, then a european and a north german (these two are equally important for me) and then after quite some time a german.

    I am first an Human being
    Then an European
    And finally a Prussian (es ist sehr heiss hier :evil: )


  • YB you are the stereotypical American… christians, conservative, you hate france without even knowing why, overtly nationalist…

    I have no idea where you got “conservative” for stereotypical American from. From where I was raised, the stereotype was liberal Americans out to get us. Rest assured, I am sure most of America [unfortunately] is liberal, just not as liberal as Europe maybe.


  • @bossk:

    Another product of feelings of western superiority and the cold war; the only reason the Russians where able to do so well against the Germans was becuase they had superior numbers and got rather lucky, right? Yet another reason to distrust western historians (although they seem to be
    getting better).

    Yup …. it’s rarely mentioned that the soviety had, well, crappy looking, but bloody deadly arms (esp. tanks and tactical bombers).


  • @Deviant:Scripter:

    @F_alk:

    Yes, we europeans have done a lot of mistakes, but we have learnt something from that. There is no need for you to repeat our mistakes. Just listen every now and then, what others have to say.

    I hardly doubt that listening to the European’s would get us anywhere at all. Are you just trying to get a voice in somewhere, because you know that Europe doesn’t hold any real power anymore? Seems to me that you should be asking US for OUR advice.

    well, if you can show me, how power and wisdom are the same … then i will agree that everyone should listen to the US: Otherwise, think of why power and wisdom are not the same, and where wisdom might help the powerful, so that all can benefit!

    After all, wasn’t it us who saved Europe’s a.s.s in World War II? If it weren’t for the US, Europe would all be speaking German right now. Don’t be so arrogant as to assume that you have the answers to everything.

    I thought it was russian, as one of your fellow USies claimed……
    and: i speak german most of the time anyway evilgrin

    @F_alk:

    You are in your puberty, …

    No need to be mean.

    The truth hurts ?? Come on, where was it mean: hurting maybe, mean no!

    What mistakes are we repeating? Back up this awfully crappy statement.

    You really want the whole list?
    I just start with: economic dictatorship over other ppl, making them colonies effectively. Ignoring any other ppls/religions interest, regardless how important it may be for that ppl/religion! Have you really been surprised that terrorists would take the battle to your home some day…. then you have not learned anything!
    These just for starters.


  • @Mr:

    I like Americans.

    I like American bravado( I like saying that…bravado, bravado)

    The US was contributing all kinds of resoures to the war right from the start. There were plenty of American volunteers to fight in Europe.

    Did the US save everyones ass?
    I don’t know for sure, but it didn’t hurt to have them involved.

    If they didn’t join, Germany would have probably fought Russia to a stand
    still. Russia was on the offensive big time by Dec 7/42.\

    For sure, the state that Europe would have been in if America didn’t get involved would be much different than today.

    I’m a dumb ass!
    I meant it to read Dec7/41….stupid


  • excellent post SUD
    and Ghoul, i’m sure we knew what you meant.


  • im proud to be canadian:-?, well maybe im nota canadian (not citizen) but im proud i live here, im also proud to be bulgarian as i was born there. i’m not saying there the best countrys in the world but im proud as hell of them. :D


  • @F_alk:

    You really want the whole list?
    I just start with: economic dictatorship over other ppl, making them colonies effectively. Ignoring any other ppls/religions interest, regardless how important it may be for that ppl/religion! Have you really been surprised that terrorists would take the battle to your home some day…. then you have not learned anything!
    These just for starters.

    What do you mean by economic dictatorship? Define that please.
    Ignoring other people’s religion? C’mon F_alk, you know as well as I do that America bends over backwards not to step on anyone’s feet (religion wise.) Wasn’t it us who just outlawed the word “God” in our national anthem? Don’t we kill our own babies because mother’s should have a “choice”. Where’s the morality in that?

    Wow, I can’t believe what I’m reading. :o You sound like you’re justifying terrorist attacks on America.


  • @Deviant:Scripter:

    @F_alk:

    You really want the whole list?
    I just start with: economic dictatorship over other ppl, making them colonies effectively. Ignoring any other ppls/religions interest, regardless how important it may be for that ppl/religion! Have you really been surprised that terrorists would take the battle to your home some day…. then you have not learned anything!
    These just for starters.

    What do you mean by economic dictatorship? Define that please.
    Ignoring other people’s religion? C’mon F_alk, you know as well as I do that America bends over backwards not to step on anyone’s feet (religion wise.) Wasn’t it us who just outlawed the word “God” in our national anthem? Don’t we kill our own babies because mother’s should have a “choice”. Where’s the morality in that?

    Wow, I can’t believe what I’m reading. :o You sound like you’re justifying terrorist attacks on America .

    economic dictatorship: has two meanings: first the economy ruling supreme over everything else. Humanity serves the economy (which IMO is perverted) and not vice versa, as IMHO it should be: economy does not serve humanity anymore.
    Take this: “profit is all that counts”. Apply it on a world wide scale. Then the economy of a powerful country can enslave other economies. Euphemistically, you could say that this economy is an “engine” for the others. Negatively, the others are slaves and fully dependant of the first one.

    Morality and religion are by far not the same. Thinking they are shows (at least to me) how much influence religion still has in the US. And the most influential religion there is christianity.
    Have you seen the one thread made up by yb? It said (more or less) “why is islam more violent than christianity” …
    It is not that important what you do in your country, when i talk of “any other ppls/religions interest” … it is more important how you impact their country and style of living!

    And now …
    "Wow, I can’t believe what I’m reading. :o You sound like you’re justifying terrorist attacks on America "

    I asked wether you were surprised. That is not justifying.
    I have noticed that some of you are not interested in what i write, but in what they want to read.
    There is no justification! There is a question.
    You kind of disallow me to ask that question for the sake of the holy and invinciible american honour and pride.
    I claim democracy and freedom.

    Make your choice, you can’t have both:
    Either take your honour and pride, or defend democracy and freedom.

    The terrorists chose the first. The US in their reply chose the first as well.


  • Either take your honour and pride, or defend democracy and freedom.

    No. You can have both.


  • I live in the best country of the world. We’re just in a bad stage right now. Not only are we the most powerful country in the world, we have the third best standard of living, the best economy, and can do the most for the world. We could do a lot of good if we just regonized that we could do good.

    I am incredible proud of my country’s history. Until we became a World Power, we were an example for colonies of the world. The Founding Fathers were brave men, who sacrificed everything for our country.


  • @Yanny:

    I live in the best country of the world.

    That does not exist, sorry but i don’t think it is a very mature feeling.

    We’re just in a bad stage right now. Not only are we the most powerful country in the world, we have the third best standard of living, the best economy, and can do the most for the world. We could do a lot of good if we just regonized that we could do good.

    Third Best standard ? With all this pollution & violence ? It is very subjective anyway as we all have different need, but i think country like Canada, Sweden, Norway and Finland can more easily represent the universal “best standard” for the human nature.

    I am incredible proud of my country’s history. Until we became a World Power, we were an example for colonies of the world. The Founding Fathers were brave men, who sacrificed everything for our country.

    I would’nt be proud of how American the treat the amerindians… only the french were acting with honor with the native.


  • I could not ask for any more than what my country has given me. The Cradle of Democracy, Birthplace of Our Founding Fathers, and the Hallmark of Freedom… all things unite under a brave new world. I may not have been born in America, but it is the place that I can call home. America gives so much and asks for so little in return. She may have been wrought with disdain and conflict in the past (segregation, inequality of sexes and races) with problems persisting today (overseas policy), but the ideals and institutions will always remain the same.

    What then is the American, this new man?…He is an American, who, leaving behind him all his ancient prejudices and manners, receives new ones from the new mode of life he has embraced, the new government he obeys, and the new rank he holds. He becomes an American by being received in the broad lap of our great Alma Mater. Here individuals of all nations are melted into a new race of men, whose labors and posterity will one day cause great changes in the world. ~ Michel Guillaume Jean de Crevecoeur


  • Nope, we’re third. Canada is first, and either Norway or Finland or Sweden is second, depending on who you ask. Japan is right behind us at fourth.


  • If I recall during the Napoleonic Wars British AND French soldiers slaughtered many civilians…


  • @Yanny:

    Nope, we’re third. Canada is first, and either Norway or Finland or Sweden is second, depending on who you ask. Japan is right behind us at fourth.

    Whereever you get that from…

    i think these statistics are quite strange. It seems like each and every country is second or third there (noone is first :) )… at least the Aussies are somewhere in the TOP3 but first … well, that’s what they claim for themselves :)

    It’s hard to say…
    but for me a country where you build houses out of something else but stone and don’t have double glassing for all your windows can’t be rated anywhere high … IMHO

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