Best Pacific Naval Composition

[TheCaptain]

Hey Guys,

Me and my friends are avid A&A veterans and have just gotten back into playing A&A.

I’m normally the American player and I’ve always had doubts with my buys when going for a KJF build. Normally I aim to build up a navy that has 1-2 bombardment dice (so 2 CA’s or 1BB 1CA) to take islands and then focus on a defensive Navy: Full CVs with fighters and nice DD meatshields.  I’ll also take a minimal number of assualt troops made up of 1-2 transports.

My reasoning is that your Navy will always be smaller than Japan’s initial Navy and that you’ll most likely want it defense oriented when Japan’s initial attack hits for fleet trading. Subs with their weak defensive dice just aren’t worth it (4 Subs vs 3 Destroyers) and stacking them to an effective # is just asking to be pre-emptively attacked.

Of course, I’ve been wrong before (I never knew about the power of Subs in Revised until visiting here).  What do you guys suggest?

[Gargantua]

The Navy game as the United States is easy.  There is a simple recipe that ANY noob can follow, and have relative success…

Build what your opponent already has.  Turn 1, 1 bat 2 acc.  You’ll have just as many capital ships as Japan on the first turn.

After that, add air, and light naval power (subs, destroyers, the odd carrier) and LOTs of transports (5+)

You WANT the Japs to be building ships.  Ships aren’t going to win them the game… the worse you make the “Naval” race for them, the better. and the more time they spend attacking America, the better.

eventually, you’ll just keep producing more.  Then it’s game.

And even if you want to “split” your income to each board theatre, still, build an “equal” navy US1, and just do yourself the favour for the rest of the game.

Any questions?

[TheCaptain]

Are Battleships even a good buy though?  I thought there was this big debate between whether getting a Battleship was worth it or getting a Destroyer and a Cruiser (something about Battleships not being worth the extra hit if they don’t survive).

Anyways, I’ll follow your advice:

Equal Capital ships.
Overflow the remainder with Escort ships
Whole lotta Transports once the above is complete.

Though I’m generally leery of having more than 2 transports with my fleet.  Too many experiences where the transports are sunk because there was insufficient amount of protection (b/c Japan decides to come in with everything before my fleet was ready).  Then again, that might be my OOB experiences coming back to haunt me.

[Omega1759]

Subs are very cheap, and you don’t need that many to beef up your fleet’s attacking power. True that they don’t defend as well, but they are the cheapest casualty possible (defensively, you want to stick around in Hawai and get 3 extra fighters to scramble). Sub also force your opponent to build a destroyer (destroyers are 33% more expensive for the same attack value). Once your fleet becomes powerful enough on the attack, Japan will have a hard time moving their fleet in range to attack you (because you’ll attack them first).

I would not buy cruisers and not by significant transports until I’m confident I have enough to wipe out their fleet. Signifcant transports / troops can be built a little later. I think investing in transports early is a mistake, delays putting the pressure on the Japan navy.

Subs are also good to take out blockers cheaply, in combination with planes.

I don’t normally buy battleships. Battleships are the most useful when there are several naval battles and they can take their one free hit several times (in friendly waters for repairs). I don’t think cruisers are worth it, would rather have 1 carrier with 2 fighters on it than 3 cruisers, gives you more flexibility and planes can fly over to be replaced more quickly.

[Gargantua]

TRANSPORTS ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT NAVAL UNIT

Never forget that.

Without a transport, a fleet is useless.  It can’t take territories, and can be ignored.

Subs are good to have, BUT, don’t have to many, or you risk the possibility of being attacked by JUST planes, by the Japanese.  In which case, your subs aren’t even part of the battle.

Wheter it’s land, sea, or air, it’s always good to have a mix of everything.  Personally with the navies, as I have said, I lean towards more aircraft, simply because after you win against the said navy, you can use it against ground troops, or for ground defense as well.

If your navy is the exact SAME as your opponents,  or even roughly similar, you are likely to not be attacked, your opponent will have to have MORE than you (most of the time), or his attack will fail.  And if the entire japanese fleet is in one location, that’s a VERY good thing for the Allies.

I don’t buy battleships often, but when I do, it’s to match my opponent, and add that little bit of extra OOOMF and fear that’s needed.  Said aswell, if you get enough battleships, 2 or 3, you can do “strafing” attacks.  Where you attack for a round, and retreat,  reinforcing your retreat, which then heals on the next turn, whilst your opponent may have lost ships, or also taken damage he can’t readily repair.

That said….

Transports! Transports! Transports!

Make sure you have more transports than the Japanese! And if you don’t know where to put the units,  it’s HAWAII, and Australia.  If you hold those two areas for the GAME.  The Japanese cannot win.

[BlynderOG]

Initially I focus a lot on air power when building up the U.S. Pacific Fleet. I purchase a few Aircraft Carriers and stock them and station the remaining aircraft at the various air fields. I keep my naval units close so I can scramble air units if need be. Once I feel comfortable I start purchasing naval units. When war if finally declared Japan can out muscle you, but with enough air power you can bite back pretty hard. Once at war the U.S. is now outproducing Japan so it won’t take long to recoup your losses.

I separate my fleet into 2 or 3 sub-fleets. That way, if Japan get’s brave and musters everything, they’ll have to spread out their attacks over a few turns. Of coarse, the entire time I’m ramping up my navy so an all out attack on my Navy will be very costly for them and the U.S. will be able to rebuild more quickly. Also, the more attention they are focusing on you the less they can focus on Chine. Which in my book is they key. The U.K. and China can force Japan out of the mainland, only if Japan has to pour resources into their Navy.

[Alsch91]

Hey Garg -
I agree with just about everything you’ve stated in this thread, but I question loading up on transports as US.
The 2-3 that I start with are usually enough.  Considering all the landings I’m going to probably do will only be on lightly-defended islands that contain maybe 1-2 Inf, my bombards and planes will get the job done.
More transports will just make Japan have to invest slightly less in its own warships.

[Axisplaya]

@Alsch91:

Hey Garg -
I agree with just about everything you’ve stated in this thread, but I question loading up on transports as US.
The 2-3 that I start with are usually enough.  Considering all the landings I’m going to probably do will only be on lightly-defended islands that contain maybe 1-2 Inf, my bombards and planes will get the job done.
More transports will just make Japan have to invest slightly less in its own warships.

I agree with you Alsch91, but thinking about Garg’s advice for transports, i realise that having 5 or 6 loaded tr say in Car is a much more dangerous threat for Japan than the casual 2 or 3. Now they have to defend much more heavily Japan or any island/territory that they would want to keep.

When you think of it, often, Japan can leave sz6 unprotected because you only have 2  to 6 land units that can make it plus bombard shore, so Japan just buy a few inf and land 1 or 2 planes and that’s it. If you have 6 tr loaded, then Japan will have to build much more troops on Japan, which they hate to do so…

More transports just gives you more options while in the same time reduce Japan’s ones.

I’l try Garg’s aproach in my next game.

[Gargantua]

I hear what you’re saying Alsch.

In my experience one only needs to Neuter Japan, and take a double check on the europe board, to make sure that’s going well enough.

I like the transports, for when and if it becomes aparrent that Hawaii, OR Australia are under direct threat.

All the ships in the world aren’t going to save you then.  You need men on the ground, if the japs make a significant landing.

Maybe… just build atleast as many transports as the Japanese?

I also find that I suicide my transports alot to take territories… Like JAVA lets say. You go there, you get 4, and interfere with the Japanese Island NO

The japs waste your transport, but now they have to draw ANOTHER 2 guys off to go back there, and take the island back AGAIN!

This is how you beat them…

Whatever the scenario, don’t get caught WITHOUT transports, in semi key positions.

[special forces]

@Gargantua:

TRANSPORTS ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT NAVAL UNIT

yes, and that is why you need some decent defence around them.

:)

[Gargantua]

Not always.

That’s the trick to the European Campaign!  And the old Revised days!

How to get MORE from LESS! :P :P

[special forces]

@Gargantua:

Not always.

That’s the trick to the European Campaign!  And the old Revised days!

How to get MORE from LESS! :P :P

You mean sacrificing transports or joining UK and US fleets?

Given the circumstances i’d sacrifice some transports, i guess, but the pay off really needs to be good enough.
But i suppose that is obvious :D

[Omega1759]

They are important, but one need to build naval supremacy first before the naval threat is credible. If you smash the Japanese fleet and park around Japan, that can’t be good for Japan… 11 IPCs gone with convoy interdiction. Of course, transports  and a landing will follow. You can get this supremacy and start hurting the japanese quicker if you don’t invest in troops and transports and THEN invest in transports / troops.

@Gargantua:

TRANSPORTS ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT NAVAL UNIT

Never forget that.

Without a transport, a fleet is useless.  It can’t take territories, and can be ignored.

Subs are good to have, BUT, don’t have to many, or you risk the possibility of being attacked by JUST planes, by the Japanese.  In which case, your subs aren’t even part of the battle.

Wheter it’s land, sea, or air, it’s always good to have a mix of everything.  Personally with the navies, as I have said, I lean towards more aircraft, simply because after you win against the said navy, you can use it against ground troops, or for ground defense as well.

If your navy is the exact SAME as your opponents,  or even roughly similar, you are likely to not be attacked, your opponent will have to have MORE than you (most of the time), or his attack will fail.  And if the entire japanese fleet is in one location, that’s a VERY good thing for the Allies.

I don’t buy battleships often, but when I do, it’s to match my opponent, and add that little bit of extra OOOMF and fear that’s needed.  Said aswell, if you get enough battleships, 2 or 3, you can do “strafing” attacks.  Where you attack for a round, and retreat,  reinforcing your retreat, which then heals on the next turn, whilst your opponent may have lost ships, or also taken damage he can’t readily repair.

That said….

Transports! Transports! Transports!

Make sure you have more transports than the Japanese! And if you don’t know where to put the units,  it’s HAWAII, and Australia.  If you hold those two areas for the GAME.  The Japanese cannot win.

[TheCaptain]

Hmm, that seems to make sense.

For regards with splitting between Pacific and Europe, I often like making a 1st or 2nd turn buy of a destroyer and 1-2 transports in the Atlantic.  This is simply because tanks don’t work as well in island hopping and the fact in A3 you get 4 whopping Mech infantry at the start. (obviously Mech Inf don’t work as great as they could be on islands). It seems natural to buy another 2 transports and, along with maybe the 1 tank you start with, move 5 transports (3 free inf from Brazil) worth of initial units as a minor relief package into Africa or make a strike into France.

The way I see it, it’ll take some time for your Navy to accrue to a level that can comfortably stack against Japans Navy AND air force without disproportionate transport loss. I’m talking about needlessly losing 5-6 transports at Hawaii/Carolines in a massive combined Navy/Airforce attack because you had too many transports and not enough combat ships.

In the mean time, most of your land forces (the aforementioned Mech Inf and Infantry in Brazil. I count Brazil because it’d take them 3 turns to even get to Hawaii; and that’s only after you’re attacked) will be waiting twiddling their thumbs till turns 4-6 where they can move out safely to assault the DEI, Phillipines, etc which in and of themselves normally have very few units that hold them. (The exception is the 1-2 transports you’d use as bare basic assualt troops)

[special forces]

It’s also good to have some ANZAC fighters closeby or in your US pacific fleet (they can land on a US air craft carrier).

When US troops get ashore somewhere, they can land and give a strong extra defence (in Alpha3),
and on islands where there are airbases already, they can scramble as well.

An accompanying ANZAC destroyer (and/or sub) or 2 can also be of value, in case some risky US attack doesn’t go as planned, the ANZAC units can still fix certain problems (taking out something with a sub/DD + fighters, or blocking enemy fleet if needed).

Anyway, teaming up pays off.