100 IPC Sea Battle

[Guerrilla Guy]

OK, Spring 1942 rules, you have 100 IPC’s, all ships and aircraft purchasable (fighters must be attached to AC’s). What would your purchase be?

GG

[Guerrilla Guy]

1 AC x 14      (14)
2 FIGHT x 10 (20)
3 BOM x 12  (36)
1 DES x 8      (8)
3 SUB x 6    (18)

is the build I would work with…

GG

[special forces]

My fleet would be a little less offensive (but stronger in defense)

1 AC + 2 FIG  (34 IPC)
2 BB  (40 IPC)
1 DD  (8 IPC)
3 SUB  (18 IPC)

[Granada]

The question is so funny it reminds me of a joke. On the quiet Black Sea surface there is a Soviet cruiser. The captain calmly walks the deck and watches the horizon. Than he comes coolly to the deck phone and yells into it: “How much?” After a while a response comes from the underdeck: “Fourty!” The captain bobs his head with a renascent calm and resorts to walking the deck again. After a while he shakes his head and returns to the deck phone to yell: “And what Fourty?” The response comes again after a while: “And what how much?”

So given the nature of your question, I think I would get myself 16 subs and for the rest an art to be deployed on the banks of the sea to watch and enjoy what my subs would do with your aforementioned fleets.  :mrgreen:

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Isn’t this like asking what kind of vehicle you want.

A car….but it doesn’t have 40 seats

A bus… but it doesn’t go really fast

A sports car…but it doesn’t tow my trailer.

So you want a fleet, good on offense then subs

So you want a fleet, good on defense, the carriers with fighters

So you want a fleet, good against subs, lots of destroyers

Ummmmm, what exactly do you expect your fleet to do?  Bombers?  So you are attacking, bombers aren’t much use for fleet defense.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

I think it valuable to create a mixed fleet for defense and one for offense, plug the numbers into the simulator and then vary the mix to see what combinations work better both for offense and defense.

Carriers/fighters I feel are the best for defense.  On offense, you would be better to have 4 destroyers for 32 IPC than 34 for the loaded carrier, better yet, 5 subs for even less.  Obviously before the peanut gallery has a heart attack, obviously, a loaded carrier has way way more flexibility.  Before the peanut gallery goes into overdrive, obviously we know without destroyers a carrier is toast against subs.  I think we all know a fleet of subs isn’t much good on defense.

Battleships are a bit worse off then spending the money on destroyers or subs for offense, again, this is a fight to the death so the ability to take 1 hit and heal is not factored in.  But, when we decide to move a fleet into harms way or to destroy an enemy fleet, we run the numbers usually to the death AND a hit and run.

[ragnarok628]

i don’t get granadas joke.

i think the purposes of the exercise are clear, if you have 100 IPCs what is your dream navy? general purpose navy, a navy in a vacuum, a navy you feel will do you proud whatever it might go against.

i’ll take 2 AC’s with 4 fighters, 3 destroyers, and 2 subs.

[Guerrilla Guy]

I will admit, mine was built purposely with attack in mind. I guess if I were to build an all purpose navy, I would still go with the AC and 2 fighters, but ditch the bombers and go with cruisers.

GG

[Granada]

@ragnarok628:

i don’t get granadas joke.

Well, what the joke says is more or less the same what MrMalachiCrunch said. You cannot say what fleet would you build unless you know the purpose of the fleet. For instance in a typical large fleet you have some trannies too, beacuse the real purpose of controling seas is to conquer lands.

Nevertheless back to my buy: my 16 subs would literally massacre any of your fleets on attack. Why do I know i would be on an attack though? Because you would not be able to hit my subs unless you come to the striking distance. Why would you come? Well why would anybody build a fancy 100 IPC fleet to let it sit as a lame duck? But if you come to the striking distance of my subs, any of your aforementioned fleets would be annihilated before saying a little prayer.

The Spring 1942 rules make subs not only marvellous attacking unit but also the most cost effective buy for what I would call the dynamic defence. They cannot be hit by air and keep the 2SZ radius deadzoned for the best money.

[newpaintbrush]

What is the best this?  What is the best that?  Always without thinking about the situation.  It’s like going to the hospital and having a kidney removed, only you don’t need a kidney removed.  But then people flock around asking “what was the brand of the artificial kidney” and “did the replacement kidney have shiny letters on the side and racing stripes?”  It’s entirely besides the point.

If you want to beat the crap out of the other navy, and are attacking, you buy subs, period.

If you want to beat the other sub-heavy army up before it can even get in range of your fleet, you buy some destroyers and a lot of subs.

If you want a navy that can do stuff besides just screw around on the water, you buy fighters and carriers to put the fighters on.

Battleships, cruisers, and bombers are all hugely situational.  Bombers can’t even compose a part of a navy . . .

[ragnarok628]

i just don’t understand why several of you refuse to participate and accept the situation presented?  it depends on the situation.  we all get it.  saying so as a caveat will prevent you from being ‘wrong’ but it doesn’t mean you can’t take part in the fun little hypothetical.

as far as a 16 sub buy goes, that’s not an offensive fleet, that’s a defensive fleet.  you can’t attack anyone with it!  it’s defensive because you have to wait until an enemy fleet positions itself in range of your subs, because if you move into their range, you’re stuck with half the punch.

i think i get the joke now, let me rewrite it–
the captain asks, “how much?”
the answer: “Forty”?
captain: “Forty what?”
answer: “How much ‘what’?”

are you a native english speaker, granada?
(i realize that might sound rude, it isn’t intended that way)

[Guerrilla Guy]

Actually your 16 subs is pretty good odds. I think I have around 4.4 hits with my fleet to your 5 (the one with cruisers).

Bunny, did you never speculate on what was the best odds for a land battle during your first few games playing Original and realize, “Hey, 10 infantry are better at defense than 1 fighter, 1 tank, and 5 infantry?”

I am posing the same thing here, just with sea battles because I believe this is the most balanced game as far as sea rules go.

GG

[Hobbes]

@Granada:

@ragnarok628:

i don’t get granadas joke.

Well, what the joke says is more or less the same what MrMalachiCrunch said. You cannot say what fleet would you build unless you know the purpose of the fleet. For instance in a typical large fleet you have some trannies too, beacuse the real purpose of controling seas is to conquer lands.

Nevertheless back to my buy: my 16 subs would literally massacre any of your fleets on attack. Why do I know i would be on an attack though? Because you would not be able to hit my subs unless you come to the striking distance. Why would you come? Well why would anybody build a fancy 100 IPC fleet to let it sit as a lame duck? But if you come to the striking distance of my subs, any of your aforementioned fleets would be annihilated before saying a little prayer.

The Spring 1942 rules make subs not only marvellous attacking unit but also the most cost effective buy for what I would call the dynamic defence. They cannot be hit by air and keep the 2SZ radius deadzoned for the best money.

I completely agree with Granada, 16 subs are exactly what you need because of the sub rules - once the destroyers are gone, it’s happy time for the subs and the enemy fighters can’t participate on the battle afterwards.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

ragnarok628, the problem was, there was NO situation imagined.  What is the best army, all infantry, too bad you are 2 spaces away and can’t hit your army FAIL.

What is the best all round navy excluding transports might have been a good start.  If you are not amphib assulting, cruisers I think are a poor choice, 3 destroyers or 2 cruisers, same punch offense/defense with 50% more ‘hit points’, destroyers win in a narrow comparison AND do anti-sub.

Talking about ‘what-ifs’ is fun and educational.  Again, using AAcalc and running your fleet choice against a hypothetical fleet is rather education.  Yes we all know there is no country called hypothetical so you are never going to attack hypothetical or be attacked, its just hypothetical.

[Guerrilla Guy]

Well said Mr. Malachai… So here is the situation I present: Best 100 IPC navy for both Attack and Defense. The navy, after all, is intended to go up against another navy of equal size and strength. I guess you could attach an amphibious assault to it, but that would be irrelevant in this rule set since an amphibious assault would depend completely upon the success of the “navy” and would not participate in this battle.

I ask this question because this is the best ruleset to discuss Naval buys. I am probably still thinking in a Revised mindset (played this version just twice, and not the whole way through). I am curious because no more can you just stack Trannies with a capital ship or destroyer…

GG