USSR Invasion

[Hobbes]

Has anyone tried a Barbarossa on G2?

I was looking at this scenario. G buys 2 inf, 3 arm, attacks France and the UK navy and instead of attacking Yugoslavia sends everything to Poland. Then on G2 it invades the Baltic with everything that can reach it.

Regardless of what R buys on the first run the odds of a counterattack go against the Russians. A German stack of 15 inf, 4 art and 6 arm + 1 AA has 75% odds of winning if the Russians send everything in range (17 inf, 1 art + buy of 3 more, 2 arm, 2 mech, 2 ftr, 1 tac).

If the Germans buy 4/5 transports and infantry on G2  it can use them to bring the panzers from France (after they pulled back to Germany on G2) to Novgorod, then the odds of a successful attack on Novgorod (assuming Russia has decided to fight for it) are some 98% for Germany. It can take 6 inf and 6 arm to join the big army and the 5 inf from Finland that moved to occupy Karelia and Vyborg.

Leningrad then falls to the Axis by G3. How does that look?

[bantubob]

I think the game is won or lost on the Eastern front. Germany’s only chance is to attack the USSR by G2 and be as aggressive as possible - it’s a race against the clock before the Americans come over. Turtling worked for me in my first game of Europe 40 a couple weeks ago as the allies. I was playing against an old school A&A gamer who’s been playing since the late 80’s. He attacked USSR on G3 and since he was taking his time and being very cautious, I pulled back and was able to build hordes of infantry in Leningrad and Moscow. He attacked Leningrad in G5, however, I proceeded to roll some of the worst dice in my life, and he wiped me out with few losses.  Even though he blew me away in Leningrad, he was too slow, as by that time he had to deal with the Americans in the west and couldn’t mount a serious attack on Moscow until G7 at the earliest.

[Hobbes]

@bantubob:

I think the game is won or lost on the Eastern front. Germany’s only chance is to attack the USSR by G2 and be as aggressive as possible - it’s a race against the clock before the Americans come over. Turtling worked for me in my first game of Europe 40 a couple weeks ago as the allies. I was playing against an old school A&A gamer who’s been playing since the late 80’s. He attacked USSR on G3 and since he was taking his time and being very cautious, I pulled back and was able to build hordes of infantry in Leningrad and Moscow. He attacked Leningrad in G5, however, I proceeded to roll some of the worst dice in my life, and he wiped me out with few losses.  Even though he blew me away in Leningrad, he was too slow, as by that time he had to deal with the Americans in the west and couldn’t mount a serious attack on Moscow until G7 at the earliest.

G may conquer Moscow on G5 with a G2 attack.

I just had another look and if the Germans buy a Major IC for Romania on G1 and buy 10 armor for it on G2 then they can have enough power to conquer the Caucasus, by not attacking Yugoslavia on G1 and taking East Poland on G2. The armor on Romania will be able to hit Belarus on G3 and even if the Russians have moved everything possible to Belarus (23 inf, 2 art, 3 arm, 4 mech, 2 ftr, 1 tac) then it’s 75% odds for the Germans if they bring their 20 inf, 5 art and 13 arm. With the use of the Luftwaffe the odds get even better but the Russians will have an AA.
With the stack moving to Belarus on G3 then it’s Smolensk/Bryansk on G4 and a massive battle on Russia on G5. If G keeps buying 10 arm each turn until G4 then it should conquer Moscow on G5.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Hobbes:

@bantubob:

I think the game is won or lost on the Eastern front. Germany’s only chance is to attack the USSR by G2 and be as aggressive as possible - it’s a race against the clock before the Americans come over. Turtling worked for me in my first game of Europe 40 a couple weeks ago as the allies. I was playing against an old school A&A gamer who’s been playing since the late 80’s. He attacked USSR on G3 and since he was taking his time and being very cautious, I pulled back and was able to build hordes of infantry in Leningrad and Moscow. He attacked Leningrad in G5, however, I proceeded to roll some of the worst dice in my life, and he wiped me out with few losses.  Even though he blew me away in Leningrad, he was too slow, as by that time he had to deal with the Americans in the west and couldn’t mount a serious attack on Moscow until G7 at the earliest.

G may conquer Moscow on G5 with a G2 attack.

I just had another look and if the Germans buy a Major IC for Romania on G1 and buy 10 armor for it on G2 then they can have enough power to conquer the Caucasus, by not attacking Yugoslavia on G1 and taking East Poland on G2. The armor on Romania will be able to hit Belarus on G3 and even if the Russians have moved everything possible to Belarus (23 inf, 2 art, 3 arm, 4 mech, 2 ftr, 1 tac) then it’s 75% odds for the Germans if they bring their 20 inf, 5 art and 13 arm. With the use of the Luftwaffe the odds get even better but the Russians will have an AA.
With the stack moving to Belarus on G3 then it’s Smolensk/Bryansk on G4 and a massive battle on Russia on G5. If G keeps buying 10 arm each turn until G4 then it should conquer Moscow on G5.

If GERMANY is spending most of its income on 10 tanks, what is delaying the Anglo-American landings?

[Hobbes]

@calvinhobbesliker:

If GERMANY is spending most of its income on 10 tanks, what is delaying the Anglo-American landings?

It’s actually all of its income since 10 tanks cost 60 IPCs. Ideally that would be 10 tanks on G2 plus 10 more on G3 (if possible, depends on money saved from the G2 buy). All of those can reach Moscow on G5. The G4 buy really depends on what the UK has been up to and the US won’t be able to attack until US4.

[mikecool70]

@Hobbes:

@calvinhobbesliker:

If GERMANY is spending most of its income on 10 tanks, what is delaying the Anglo-American landings?

It’s actually all of its income since 10 tanks cost 60 IPCs. Ideally that would be 10 tanks on G2 plus 10 more on G3 (if possible, depends on money saved from the G2 buy). All of those can reach Moscow on G5. The G4 buy really depends on what the UK has been up to and the US won’t be able to attack until US4.

Can Germany still take Russia on turn 5 if the entire UK airforce lands on it on turn 4?

[Hobbes]

@mikecool70:

@Hobbes:

@calvinhobbesliker:

If GERMANY is spending most of its income on 10 tanks, what is delaying the Anglo-American landings?

It’s actually all of its income since 10 tanks cost 60 IPCs. Ideally that would be 10 tanks on G2 plus 10 more on G3 (if possible, depends on money saved from the G2 buy). All of those can reach Moscow on G5. The G4 buy really depends on what the UK has been up to and the US won’t be able to attack until US4.

Can Germany still take Russia on turn 5 if the entire UK airforce lands on it on turn 4?

It is impossible for the UK fighters to reach Moscow by turn 4 since the fighters can’t reach any of Russia’s territories while on the UK. They can reach only Caucasus through Gibraltar and Egypt on UK4. Unless the UK gives up the Taranto attack and send the fighter from Egypt and the tac from the carrier.

[mikecool70]

@Hobbes:

It is impossible for the UK fighters to reach Moscow by turn 4 since the fighters can’t reach any of Russia’s territories while on the UK. They can reach only Caucasus through Gibraltar and Egypt on UK4. Unless the UK gives up the Taranto attack and send the fighter from Egypt and the tac from the carrier.

Actually, if UK builds an airbase in Scotland on turn 1, then they can send all of their airforce to Russia by turn 4, even the one in Alexandria.  Alternatively, they can send all planes to the Med/Gibraltar on turn 1, land on Egypt or Trans-Jordan on turn 2 (perhaps after taking some casualties from destroying the Italian navy, then move to East Persia on turn 3, then Russia on turn 4.  I’m not saying either of these options is a good idea; just saying that it’s possible.

[Arminius Germanicus]

@mikecool70:

@Hobbes:

It is impossible for the UK fighters to reach Moscow by turn 4 since the fighters can’t reach any of Russia’s territories while on the UK. They can reach only Caucasus through Gibraltar and Egypt on UK4. Unless the UK gives up the Taranto attack and send the fighter from Egypt and the tac from the carrier.

Actually, if UK builds an airbase in Scotland on turn 1, then they can send all of their airforce to Russia by turn 4, even the one in Alexandria.  Alternatively, they can send all planes to the Med/Gibraltar on turn 1, land on Egypt or Trans-Jordan on turn 2 (perhaps after taking some casualties from destroying the Italian navy, then move to East Persia on turn 3, then Russia on turn 4.  I’m not saying either of these options is a good idea; just saying that it’s possible.

Airbase in Scotland cost you 15 IPC and is probarbly used only once ?
I don´t see further benefit for it than landing the 3 FIG from setup start.
IMO UK simply hasn´t got enough IPCs (especially for an early) to build Airbase in Scotland (or elsewhere). It also would only bring a benefit of 1 Round, Round 3 in Moscow while through med by UK4. But sure its the same like in the old AAeurope,
UK brings in all his Aircraft to Russia as soon as the Germans dosn´t threat the British Isle anymore. So it becomes harder (or nearly impossible) to win such a game with the germans. But remember also, that if the UK sends all FIG to Russian support, it would interfrere their ability to threaten the European coast for some turns.

[Hobbes]

Opps, forgot about buying an airbase and I also miscalculated the time for them to get to Moscow ;)

That definitely pushes the time for a conquest of Russia to G6 or later. I’m wondering if it is still worth it to buy the 10 armor on G2 and move the stack to Belarus on G3 and Bryansk on G4. That gives Germany the ability to take all those 2 IPC territories in the south.

[Van_Trump]

This G2 attack on USSR is intriguing. Threatening Sealion forces UK to build Inf stack first turn. It also deters UK from taking out the Italian Navy.

I agree Yugoslavia can wait. I just wonder if USSR concentrates on turtling in Moscow if all that German armor is enough to take it G6. Standard Operating Procedure in A&A is to wait until your German Inf stack arrives.

In the game I just finished France held against the Germans so neither this strategy nor Sealion was possible.

The critical mistake the Allies made was the Russians attempting to hold in Leningrad G5. In spite of lucky rolls (3 AA hits out of 4) the overwhelming odds of the German attack killed 17 Russian inf/art.

If I ever play Russia I hold Leningrad until the German stack arrives. Then it’s off to Moscow, comrades.

[Hobbes]

@Van_Trump:

This G2 attack on USSR is intriguing. Threatening Sealion forces UK to build Inf stack first turn. It also deters UK from taking out the Italian Navy.

I agree Yugoslavia can wait. I just wonder if USSR concentrates on turtling in Moscow if all that German armor is enough to take it G6. Standard Operating Procedure in A&A is to wait until your German Inf stack arrives.

In the game I just finished France held against the Germans so neither this strategy nor Sealion was possible.

The critical mistake the Allies made was the Russians attempting to hold in Leningrad G5. In spite of lucky rolls (3 AA hits out of 4) the overwhelming odds of the German attack killed 17 Russian inf/art.

If I ever play Russia I hold Leningrad until the German stack arrives. Then it’s off to Moscow, comrades.

If the USSR turtles on Moscow then they will lose their southern territories and be outproduced by the factories on Novgorod and Volgograd.

If the German stack arrives at Belarus then the troops in Leningrad will most likely be cut off and destroyed as they are retreating through Archangel and Smolensk by the German stack. And without them defending Moscow becomes a lot harder.

[Arminius Germanicus]

If the USSR turtles on Moscow then they will lose their southern territories and be outproduced by the factories on Novgorod and Volgograd.

Sounds so easy….  :roll:

If Germans are so lucky to get both very fast…
but if the russian player moves smart
it will cost germany to much time to get them.
Meanwhile you will have to face a invasion in the west.
So its much about timing I guess

[Latro]

@Hobbes:

G may conquer Moscow on G5 with a G2 attack.

I just had another look and if the Germans buy a Major IC for Romania on G1 and buy 10 armor for it on G2 then they can have enough power to conquer the Caucasus, by not attacking Yugoslavia on G1 and taking East Poland on G2. The armor on Romania will be able to hit Belarus on G3 and even if the Russians have moved everything possible to Belarus (23 inf, 2 art, 3 arm, 4 mech, 2 ftr, 1 tac) then it’s 75% odds for the Germans if they bring their 20 inf, 5 art and 13 arm. With the use of the Luftwaffe the odds get even better but the Russians will have an AA.
With the stack moving to Belarus on G3 then it’s Smolensk/Bryansk on G4 and a massive battle on Russia on G5. If G keeps buying 10 arm each turn until G4 then it should conquer Moscow on G5.

Never expect your enemy to do what you want them to do!

The weakness of your proposed G2 Barbarossa is that you move into the Soviet Union at top speed with minimal infantry, maximum armour and no flank protection. It’s not really interesting if the Red Army can hold in Belarus against a massed German attack, but a lot more if the Wehrmacht can hold Belarus if the Red Army concentrates behind it and counterattacks once the Germans have moved in.

After a quick count (might have missed a few) the Germans can move 13 inf / 6 art / 13 arm into Belarus on G3 and the Soviets can have a maximum of 33 inf / 6 art / 2 mech / 2 arm / 2 ftr / 2 tac ready for them in counterattack position behind Belarus. Though in reality they will have some of those guarding flank and threatening German open positions (which the Germans should be guarding as well by the way!).

The moment you move forward, you will lose your infantry screen. After that you can either wait for new troops to take the hits, losing a lot of time while the UK and US fleets are making their first landings in the West … or start trading armour for infantry against the Soviets, which is also a recipe for disaster.

By the way, not saying that a G2 Barbarossa is always doomed from the start, but that quick massed armour push to the north will fail against an experienced Soviet player.

8-)

[Hobbes]

@Latro:

Never expect your enemy to do what you want them to do!

The weakness of your proposed G2 Barbarossa is that you move into the Soviet Union at top speed with minimal infantry, maximum armour and no flank protection. It’s not really interesting if the Red Army can hold in Belarus against a massed German attack, but a lot more if the Wehrmacht can hold Belarus if the Red Army concentrates behind it and counterattacks once the Germans have moved in.

Well first, thanks for the feedback :)

That’s a very a very valid point, that the Russians would be most happy to destroy a large German stack on Belarus. It is possible for Russia to do so, depending on what it buys during its first 2 turns. However, Germany has a few options to prevent that from happening. I’ll go over them over the rest of your post.

@Latro:

After a quick count (might have missed a few) the Germans can move 13 inf / 6 art / 13 arm into Belarus on G3 and the Soviets can have a maximum of 33 inf / 6 art / 2 mech / 2 arm / 2 ftr / 2 tac ready for them in counterattack position behind Belarus. Though in reality they will have some of those guarding flank and threatening German open positions (which the Germans should be guarding as well by the way!).

G can move to E. Poland/Slovakia/Romania 19 inf, 5 art and 3 arm, if it doesn’t attack Yugoslavia. Lets assume 1 inf dies killing the Russian inf on E. Poland and another is killed by the Russians on taking Belarus, leaving 17 inf, 5 art and 13 armor on Belarus.

The Russians have initially 24 inf, 3 art, 2 arm, 2 mech, 2 ftr, 1 tac and they can add 2 rounds of builds to the attack, less 4 inf used to garrison Baltic/E.Poland/Belarus/W.Ukraine. If they purchase solely based on the offensive, they can buy 6 art on R1 and 3 art for Karelia, 2 arm and 1 mech on R2, maximizing their attack on Belarus and that will leave them with 20 inf, 12 art, 4 arm and 3 mech (plus the 2 ftrs and 1 tac), which would give them odds of 73% attack (including the shots by the German AA).

But there’s another one possibility when taking Belarus: let the Italians take it on I2 (on I1 you’d have to move the 2 armor from Albania/N. Italy to the Eastern front. It is something it should be done always since they can act as can openers for Germany). Then the entire German stack can move to Belarus, including all the planes. Odds for a successful attack by Russia? 19%, just by landing 2 German ftrs and 2 tacs there.

But let’s imagine G decides not to move to Belarus: the Italian attack failed or the Russians left more than 1 inf behind, preventing the fighters from landing.

Then G simply moves its stack to W. Ukraine. It cannot be attacked by a Russian stack on Smolensk and if the Russians pull back the stack to Bryansk then it may be attacked by the Germans. The UK fighters can’t reach Bryansk by UK3 just the 17 inf, 5 art, 13 arm of the German stack has a chance of 57% of taking Bryansk on G4. Add the Luftwaffe and the odds go higher, depending on the AA shots. So essentially Russia either risks an all out defense of Bryansk or pulls back into Moscow, essentially giving up most of Russia to the Germans. Decisions…

What other options for the Russians? The scenario above implies that Russia would focus its production in artillery to prevent the Germans from moving into Belarus. There are probably other options, such as abandoning completely Novgorod and focusing on preventing the Germans from moving their stack to Smolensk/Bryansk by G4. Meanwhile a 2nd German stack of close to 20 arm/mech (the ones used France and G3 production on Romania) will arrive at W. Ukraine by G4. Decisions…

@Latro:

The moment you move forward, you will lose your infantry screen. After that you can either wait for new troops to take the hits, losing a lot of time while the UK and US fleets are making their first landings in the West … or start trading armour for infantry against the Soviets, which is also a recipe for disaster.

The answer is not to waste infantry or tanks taking 1 IPC territories that are not in the path to Moscow (blitzing through empty territories excluded) - the Germans don’t have to fall for that Russian tactic if they don’t want to, it is a waste of resources for minimal gains. And any enemy infantry left behind the German stack can be killed by the armored reinforcements.

You also mentioned on the beginning that I am not protecting my flanks. Well, the 4 inf from Bulgaria can cover the southern flank while the Finnish infantry can push towards Leningrad - if the Russians attack them they are merely diverting units from their defensive efforts on the center.

@Latro:

By the way, not saying that a G2 Barbarossa is always doomed from the start, but that quick massed armour push to the north will fail against an experienced Soviet player.

8-)

I’m trying as well to come up with ideas for the Soviets to defend against this. Above is only a possible scenario. The Russians might decide to abandon Novgorod on R2 to concentrate further against the Germans. The UK might land on Greece on UK1 to activate those infantry, creating a thorn for the Axis on the Balkans. Who knows?  :-D

[Hobbes]

Just looked into it again and here’s a possible counter. If the UK lands 1 inf + 1 arm on Greece and activates on UK1 then the Italians will have to land units on Albania to prevent the UK from activating Yugoslavia. Otherwise, if Albania/Bulgaria are left with only 1 axis infantry then the UK can attack with its 5 inf then send the tank during non-combat to activate Yugo.
That really does not change the initial dynamic though since it is easy for Italy to block such a move although they won’t land 2 units on Africa that turn. It will divert the Italian tanks though.

[Oso]

The best way to attack the Soviet Union is to carefully make Moscow your end goal. By accumulating most of one’s forces in Poland and building a decent transport fleet, supported of course with defensive surface ships, one could steadily march the red army back to moscow and force them to literally surrender Stalingrad and Leningrad without much of a fight. The Soviet Union is simply too large for the Soviets to defend effectively. They can only stall and wait for your real problem: The Americans, which by that time should be wreaking havoc somewhere.

I personally waited and bought minimal land armies in preparation for the Soviet invasion until it actually began. The first few turns I threatened Sealion while building surface ships, focusing on disrupting England and Scotland’s convoys and getting the German fleet to the open sea to stall the eventual American Armada, possibly destroy it at least once when war comes, as the German navy was unusually large in my last game. The German Army can always threaten Leningrad through transports, which although contains a victory city, is not as strategically important as the territory that borders it to the south/southeast. The Russian Army must retreat against a constantly moving foe who only seeks a superior postion. If it does not catch what the German player is about to do very early on, it could make for a quick campaign on the German side of things, the German army can remain well supplied through its transports, and the western front can be at least stalled for several turns with a large German navy. If Italy is good to you, Germany might just survive to turn around and face the green monster.

[JamesAleman]

I have success with G2 attacks.

I drive straight for Moscow, pausing 1 turn and hit Moscow G6.

This is achieved by taking France with 5 armor, keeping the German air force in tact, and building mostly mech each turn.

As stated above ignore Yugoslavia and any Russian 1 infantry zones.
Invasion route is: E.Poland G2, W. UkraineG3, PauseG4, BryanskG5, and then MoscowG6.

G2: 18inf, 5art,4Mech,2arm; G3: 18 inf, 5art, 7Mech,3 arm; G4: 18 inf, 5 art, 23 Mech, 8 Arm; G5: 18 inf, 5 art, 26 Mech, 8 arm; G6: 18 inf, 5 art, 30 Mech, 8 arm, 4ftr,3tac,1bmb.
Builds: 1)6 mech(1 saved in Belgium); 2) 13 mech; 3) 10 mech; 4) 10 mech(does not make Moscow-novgorad+volgograd force); 5+) defensive forces

Grab Moscow G6, take other cities by G8 hopefully G7 if they are emptied in the defense of Moscow.

Axis win G7 under ideal conditions otherwise G8 if the US does not take Egypt,Berlin, Rome or France.
Note, it is technically possible to hit Volgograd and Novgorad (Not likely)  G6 if empty for a G6 win.

[Latro]

@Hobbes:

G can move to E. Poland/Slovakia/Romania 19 inf, 5 art and 3 arm, if it doesn’t attack Yugoslavia. Lets assume 1 inf dies killing the Russian inf on E. Poland and another is killed by the Russians on taking Belarus, leaving 17 inf, 5 art and 13 armor on Belarus.

The Russians have initially 24 inf, 3 art, 2 arm, 2 mech, 2 ftr, 1 tac and they can add 2 rounds of builds to the attack, less 4 inf used to garrison Baltic/E.Poland/Belarus/W.Ukraine. If they purchase solely based on the offensive, they can buy 6 art on R1 and 3 art for Karelia, 2 arm and 1 mech on R2, maximizing their attack on Belarus and that will leave them with 20 inf, 12 art, 4 arm and 3 mech (plus the 2 ftrs and 1 tac), which would give them odds of 73% attack (including the shots by the German AA).

But there’s another one possibility when taking Belarus: let the Italians take it on I2 (on I1 you’d have to move the 2 armor from Albania/N. Italy to the Eastern front. It is something it should be done always since they can act as can openers for Germany). Then the entire German stack can move to Belarus, including all the planes. Odds for a successful attack by Russia? 19%, just by landing 2 German ftrs and 2 tacs there.

The Soviet strategy would basically remain the same though. Counterattack the German army, fight one or two rounds (depending on rolls), withdraw and link-up with the reinforcements coming from Russia. This strips Germany very quickly from it’s infantry protection while the Red Army gets immediate reinforcements moving towards the front … limiting the overall reduction in strength of the frontline army.

I know it’s impossible to actually go into details, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make. As an overall strategy, I’ve had a lot of success with the Soviet Union playing a very active defence instead of just moving back and defending Moscow with one massive stack. The Red Army needs to make the Wehrmacht bleed every step of the way, without getting drawn into one big all-deciding battle.

• Engage, kill infantry, disengage, link-up with reinforcements.
• Threaten every German move with a counterattack.
• Keep your important units (airforce!) always out of the actual frontline.

@Hobbes:

Then G simply moves its stack to W. Ukraine. It cannot be attacked by a Russian stack on Smolensk and if the Russians pull back the stack to Bryansk then it may be attacked by the Germans.

No need, this creates exactly the same situation as in Belarus. The Red Army in Smolensk can threaten every move towards Moscow with a counterattack … and every turn not moving towards Moscow bring the Axis one turn closer to defeat.

8-)

[Latro]

@JamesAleman:

Axis win G7 under ideal conditions otherwise G8 if the US does not take Egypt,Berlin, Rome or France.

I find this line the most interesting. With no early sizable naval builds, all of the Luftwaffe going East, most of the other reinforcements going East as well … how can Germany ever hope to fend off the amphibious assaults coming from the West? Combined UK/US landings are pretty much guaranteed as early as turn 4 and you have nothing to push them back.

8-)