I wasn’t going to say anything, but I like that fact that you seem to be trying to learn and I’m getting tired of what seems like every strategy session devolving into talking about how all sorts of hypothetical reactions can/will completely cancel this or that so 'll help you out, Kaufschtick. Oh and I played four games against one of my buddies who read your strategy. He tried it all four of the last games he’s played as Japan. The first one, the dice favoured me almost the whole game and I won rather handily. The second game he won with India and ANZAC falling from simply outmaneuvering me and tricking me to overextend and then destroying my combined allied fleets completely. The third game was close but also an allied victory with the Americans remaining elusive until the Japanese player was forced to commit to an attack or lose the initiative and then being attacked once their fleet was out of position to counterattack, and the fourth one was very close until I cornered his fleet with the Americans and then crushed it, great dice adding very nicely to my naval superiority (which the anzac bought dearly with the lives of their pilots). While this might be a long post, don’t worry I’ll keep it to a bare minimum of actual points to decrease the opportunities for you to highlight my real points and tell me I’m stupid 'cause you disagree/don’t get them. :p
Also keep in mind to read my post as if my tone is friendly and sincere, 'cause it is. I’m a little too old and don’t care enough for a flame war. :)
Your plan stated that you’re leaving your fleet based in Malaya. You can’t counter a North Pacific American fleet with any boats if you do that, just your planes; AND only the planes that you pulled out of attacking India/China to defend the home islands or the ones you still have in range after your last turn of attacking India. If you’re using your airforce to take India on turn X, then they are well out of range to threaten an American fleet in sea zone 6 that just landed 7 units and an AA gun in Korea also on turn X. Plus, assuming a balanced American fleet there would be destroyers to act as blockers to hold up your Jap fleet from returning to face this threat and hold on I’ll get you my calculator… there would be at least one turn of income disruption from the initial landing of the navy at Korea, so that’s -8. Then, assuming there are also subs and your returning fleet has been stalled or reinforcements built in Malaya, the American subs will cause ANOTHER round of income disruption, also -8. That’s just like taking Borneo for two turns in terms or relative IPC’s. Subs, trading subs for destroyers and convoy disruptions are the key to your income disparity problem.
Assuming the Americans stay out of trouble (which they probably won’t), and suffer no gains or losses, by turn 5 their fleet could consist of 1 battleship, 11 subs, 6 destroyers, 5 cruisers, 4 fully loaded carriers (5 fighters and 3 tactical bombers), plus 2 bombers and 4 fully loaded transports. Just to give you an of what can sail from Hawaii the turn you’re taking India. Hell, if you build them in a particular order you can drop 3 carriers and a fighter on turn 5 in San Fran and still be able to land planes based in Hawaii on them after taking part in an attack on sea zone 6 the next turn. Oh and basing out of Hawaii and having transports is not telegraphing anything. It threatens many different important areas and transports are need to take anything.
As the allies, always try to set up a 1-2 maybe even 3 punch with India, ANZAC and the US. If the Japs move in force to something like Java with a Battleship, and two carriers and a destroyer early on, and the American planes are based in Queensland, why not attack them. If the Japanese take three hits and soak all three, then if you lose your planes fine, but if you still have any retreat. Then the Brits go and lo and behold, now it’s 4 fighters and a tac vs. a damaged bb and two damaged carriers and a destroyer. Plus ANZAC still goes. If they lose navy and keep the carriers undamaged then they’re taking casualties so good for you! You need to understand the the Japanese power lies not in their airforce but in their navy. If you can knock out Japanese fleets DO IT Especially if it only costs you Indian or ANZAC units. America is the important power for the allies and they need naval superiority, so have the other two help them get it instead of just building for it. This isn’t Seafarers of Cattaan (or however it’s spelled). If Japan sends a Battleship and a destroyer to take out the ANZAC transport on turn one, send in the fighters. Every fleet you destroy could be one turn earlier that America can make a push.
Finally and most importantly learn to lose to learn. If you’re probably sure that you’re going to lose a game don’t concede, play it out. That is where you learn the really good moves, the clutch plays that turn tides and slow enemy advances to a crawl. I win many more of my games than I lose simply because I play them out. I learn new ways to turn tides, predict enemy moves and buy time to regroup. You can learn this too, but not on a forum, not by winning easily and not by reusing and perfecting one stupid set of moves over and over and over. The best part is as you do this more and more, you end up being able to win games that many others would either have conceded or had been impossible without your hard earned hard fighting never roll over skills. If you find Japan turn one attacks end you up with too easy a victory, play a Japan turn 2 or 3 attack. It’s not going easy or pitying your opponent your making the game more interesting for yourself and it’s a game so why play it if it’s not fun. If you want a challenge, before you start making changes to the rules, play a more challenging version of the game, you’ll be happier and better experienced for it.
P.S.
Go out and find the game TACTICS II. It’s awesome.
P.P.S.
I don’t know how you guys play China, but I can’t figure out how people think it’s a pushover. I always make them do extremely well or make the Japs spend way too many plastic lives on taking them out.
Your plan stated that you’re leaving your fleet based in Malaya.
Never said that I’d keep it there.
If you’re using your airforce to take India on turn X, then they are well out of range to threaten an American fleet in sea zone 6 that just landed 7 units and an AA gun in Korea also on turn X.
Never said I’m using my air force to take India. I’ve seen India go down mostly with CV air, bombers, off shore attacks and a fair amount of amphibious and land units. Depends on the game though…
Last game-fest we played, one game saw India go down on J5. Normally this doesn’t happen until about J7 or later.
J1 Japan takes the PI & Celebes
J2 they take the rest of the DEI (they’re at 60+ IPCs at this point)
J3 they take Singapore
J4 they build a major IC there
J5 the first batch of stuff shows up, with a lot just to consolidate gains (worse case)
J6 the first load of troops exclusively headed for India shows up (worse case)
J7 they move to Shan State
J8 to Burma
J9 the Japanese will have combined an amphibious assault (sometimes mech inf. follow up the first wave of men headed to India) and India is done, at the latest turn 10.
Then its Japan 78 IPCs, Allies 70 IPCs.
But like I said, it depends on the game. The Allies have enough strength to attack, but not enough to counter attack. The Japanese do, so they can take advantage of Japanese won battles (and Allied won battles) by having enough left the next turn to develope what ever the situation happens to be.
We’ve had plenty of games where the Allies have taken Truk, but were so weakened in doing so that they effectively lost the game.
Both sides have to be able to win a major battle, and then have enough the next turn to take advantage of the situation.
In the DEI, as soon as the Japanese get a major IC in Singapore, they can get reinforcements to that region way before the Allies, who are relying on them to come all the way from San Fransico, 3 moves away.
The Japanese can exchange fleets with the Allies, build a new one the next turn in Singapore, right where the action is. San Fransico is a long way off, and the US come in piecemeal.
A good Japanese player will screw with the ANZAC bonus income by taking one of the Solomons too from time to time. They can hit either side of New Guinea from Singapore. Sometimes a DD will move down to Truk with a suicide transport bound for New Britain and take advantage of the air cover from Truks airbase and planes.
The Japanese have enough, and are able to build enough as the game progresses, to move steadily toward India, defend Truk & Japan (SZ6), squeeze out China, and screw with the Allies in the Solomons (the ANZAC bonus islands).
Plus, assuming a balanced American fleet
Then, assuming there are also subs and your returning fleet
Don’t assume, you know what happens then…
Assuming the Americans stay out of trouble (which they probably won’t)
Yeah…
But there’s just too much assuming going on here.
You know as well as I do that the game takes on it’s own personality after just a few turns.
As the allies, always try to set up a 1-2 maybe even 3 punch with India, ANZAC and the US.
You can try what you want as the Allies. It doesn’t change the fact that the Japanese start the game way air heavy over the Allies. That the Japanese can take the PI, the DEI, Singapore, and on to India smartly without taking heavy casualties.
It doesn’t change the fact that Japan can go 26 IPCs J1, 40 IPCs J2, and then be at 60+ IPCs J3 & on.
It doesn’t change the fact that Britian will go 16 IPCs B1, 13 IPCs B2, 9 IPCs B3, and then be at 5 or less IPCs from then on.
It doesn’t change the fact that Japan can take out China and only need to divert a few fighters and/or dive bombers by using their strategic bombers smartly.
It doesn’t change the fact that Japan will be able to match the US and ANZAC buys early on, and then out buy them after India is done.
The biggest factor for an Allied win OOB is a poor or ineperienced Japanese player. Against a good Japanese player, it just ain’t going to happen unless there is a blue moon. :-)
Or unless the Japanese player has drunk too many Blue Moons. :-D
P.S.
Go out and find the game TACTICS II. It’s awesome.
Tactic II was a good game for it’s time, which unfortunately was a little before my time (but not by much). By the time I got into Avalon Hill hot and heavy, Blitzkreig had been released, which was the “upgrade” or “revision” to Tactics II. I did however, buy Tactics II (and just about every other A_H WWII game I could lay my hands on) and owned it a long time ago. I played a few games, but like I said, Blitzkreig just blew it away, especially when you used all the optional rules (like the air rules, and the upgraded naval rules that came out in The General).
I traded most of the the old games I didn’t play anymore in at the local gameshop here in town a long, long time ago though. A buddy of mine kept all of his, he still has Tactics II!
P.P.S.
I don’t know how you guys play China, but I can’t figure out how people think it’s a pushover. I always make them do extremely well or make the Japs spend way too many plastic lives on taking them out.
Depends on what the Japanese do, but it doesn’t matter either way. Defend Yunnan or go north. If the Japanes park their strat bombers in Hong Kong, Kwangsi or Vietnam, they can reach out and touch the Chinese (and the British and anyone else who strays too near). That, along with 2/3 fighters and or dive bombers is enough to do in the Chinese.
I even built a minor IC in Hong Kong, or was it Kwangsu (doesn’t matter) one game as insurance, and didn’t even need it. It was a 12 IPC win for the Allies as it was 12 wasted IPCs for the Japanese, who won the game anyways.
The Japanese are going… or should I say, they can start building fighters on J2. Truk gets defended with…again… I should say, Truk can be defended by Japanese air units. If the US moves on Japan, these air units are available to return to SZ 6 and attack any US ships there after an attack on Korea and land in Japan. The Japanese are…dang it!!… They can defend Japan with fairly numerous air units as well with just a modest amount of new fighters being built each turn.
I never said the Japanese fleet stays in SZ37. They go there when they’re ready to take out India sure, but the PI is where they go if there’s nothing else to pounce on at the moment.
Hell, I’ve seen the Japanese with 5 CVs by J4 before. When they are spending 60+ IPCs by J3 (that is a given), you better believe they are going to have something to say about the US making a move into SZ6, AND have enough to be getting ready to trottle the British in India.
And that’s the main problem with the game. The Japanese start out heavily advantaged in units, then zoom to an equal income level with the Allies in just two turns, as the Allies collective income is dropping like a rock in China & with the British.
By the time the US have collected up enough strength to throw a single punch at the Japanese, the Japanese are waiting with a double combination counter punch. Then it’s downhill from there.
There is a reason why there are no effective Allied Strategies being discussed on here, or on any forums.
It’s because the Japanese can counter anything the Allies can do.
And once the Japanese player gets the hang of what he/she is doing, then it’s hopeless for the Allies.
The Allies may out dice the Japanese once in a while. Or catch them making a bad move. But when the Japanese progresses to the point that they know what to do to win, and go about it smartly, you’re just wasting your time as the Allied player.
You take two equally skilled players and have them play a number of games, and you’re going to see the Japanese side start to dominate the win column.
Not the mark of a good game, or at least one that was well play tested anyway…
Hey stick,
it was my post on the Harris site, so I’ll reply here.
When India falls, and China is all but finished, all you have to be able to do is add. If that guy can’t do that, he can buy a calculator.
If China is down to one territory, the Japanese will be sitting on a major IC in Singapore, with 77 IPCs a turn. US and ANZAC IPCs will be at 70.
It’s more than just addition. Even if Japan has more income, they may have lost enough during that time to be unable to counter the coming American offensive, which would see that income unravel.
Attack Japan on US 5 with 4 transports!?! I’d leave my about 15 a/c on the island and avoid the sea battle, easily defeating the land attack. Then on my next turn I’d fall like a ton of bricks on that US fleet. Game over. On turn 3 the Japanese are earning 60+ IPCs, if the US spends the whole first 5 turns telescoping their move like that, why bother playing?
If you leave your planes on Japan, why can’t America attack Korea instead? Then build a major IC there the turn after. You can fall “like a ton of bricks on the US fleet, but you can’t take back Korea with no trannies in range. Your Chinese gains would quickly unravel.
So…if you’re leaving 15 a/c behind, how have they been participating in the India assault? If you’ve left them there, how can you stop the US from taking the Carolines and threatening multiple VC from there?
They’ll never make it back (Malaya stack) unless you move them out right on B1, leaving Singapore wide open and giving the Japanese a nice present along with their major IC a full turn earlier without even having to loose one troop.
But Japan has enough fire power moving that direction anyway. Does 4 infantry really scare Japan enough that they have to build up a sizeable force to take it?
There are a lot of things that Japan has to do, I’ve yet to see China threaten Hong Kong. A 12 IPC minor IC is all that Japan would need to help in China in a worse case scenario. I mean, come on, the Japanese have loads of air assets vs men only.
Well, the post on the Harris site wasn’t very informative, giving a simple J1: xxx J2: yyyy and did not specify what was purchased when except for the major IC, so I had to do a lot of speculating and asking questions.
But this is a good example. So do you mean that you’d use your planes in China only for J1 & J2, then pull them back to Japan because an American fleet is coming? You can’t finish off China with planes AND defend Japan/Korea from an American landing.
But they can be everywhere they need to be to win the game. It’s the Allies that can’t be everywhere they need to be to even get into the game.
They can be, but it’s not guaranteed. And Allies most certainly can be everywhere they need to win: they only need to make it to Japan while holding 3 VCs.
If you really want to find a counter or definitively proof that the game is broken, I’m open for some back and forth PMs or forum posting. I’m sorry if you’ve posted it already, but I don’t have the time search the forums in depth.
Could you post how you would move everything in a J1 move towards this strategy? (or a link to where it’s already posted) We could then hash out as many Allied counters as possible to see how reliable they all are. I love discussion strategy and could do it all day. So whenever you have the time, detail your J1 move down to the last man, Non combat, and purchasing.
I am just not convinced that the game is fundamentally broken yet.
If you leave your planes on Japan, why can’t America attack Korea instead? Then build a major IC there the turn after. You can fall “like a ton of bricks on the US fleet, but you can’t take back Korea with no trannies in range.
No transports in range?
Think about it.
Your US strat is to build an IC in Korea.
On the turn the US strike into SZ6 and take Korea, we’ll call turn A.
An IC gets built on turn B.
Units can finally be built on turn C
The Japanese have two full turns to counter attack Korea before the US can start placing units there. They have a full turn to build transports & units, and move on board units into the SZ which will cut off the Americans from outside reinforcements, and Korea will fall before the US IC can start building stuff.
The Japanese player will probably get your next beer from the fridge for you though, as it’s the least they can do to repay the favor the US did for Japan by buying them an IC in Korea.
The US doesn’t have the strength to bust into the zone, recover from the Japanese counter attack (there will be a Japanese counter attack), and then bust back in all over again on consecutive turns.
Japan does.
The Japanese can place units straight into the battle.
The US has to bring them in from two turns away, telescoping their intentions
The problem with the Korean strat, is the same problem with the “take Truk” strat, which is the same problem as all the other Allied strats. The Japanese just have too much to start with, and the Allies never can make it up.
The huge advantage in at start air units and the airbase on Japan make an IC in Korea nothing more than pipe dreams for the Allies.
The SZ to go after as the US is SZ19. It borders 4 territories worth 9 IPCs to the Chinese, which will bring China back into the game. Those Allied units can then move inland immediately to take back more Chinese territory and move away from Japanese counter attacks. Then the Allies don’t have to stand in there and fight toe to toe with the Japanese in SZ19. The Allies can shift their attacks to other areas of the board, keeping the Japanese spread out and chasing them.
Jab and move, jab and move. The Allies won’t win a punching match with the Japanese until the Japanese have been whittled down a bit, and that is no easy task against a good player.
Kauf,
I’m pleased you debunked the Korea IC strat. It’s a great objective, but I was always puzzled how the US was supposed to hold it. Like you say, the US can’t get units there until turn C, giving the Japanese ample opportunity to regather its Transports and counterattack.
Even Strat bombing isn’t as effective for the US anymore as it doesn’t “remove” Victory Points (there are none), and defending Ftrs will rip Bombers to shreds with no escorts, which the US can’t bring unless they park a carrier in sz6.
I like the sz19 idea but at the end of the day the Allies need to be in a position to fan out and capture all of the money islands (DEI, Philippines, Java etc) with Subs, and then block an additional sea zone outward with Destroyers. Tricky to say the least!
Lozza007
Kauf,
I’m pleased you debunked the Korea IC strat. It’s a great objective, but I was always puzzled how the US was supposed to hold it. Like you say, the US can’t get units there until turn C, giving the Japanese ample opportunity to regather its Transports and counterattack.
Even Strat bombing isn’t as effective for the US anymore as it doesn’t “remove” Victory Points (there are none), and defending Ftrs will rip Bombers to shreds with no escorts, which the US can’t bring unless they park a carrier in sz6.
I like the sz19 idea but at the end of the day the Allies need to be in a position to fan out and capture all of the money islands (DEI, Philippines, Java etc) with Subs, and then block an additional sea zone outward with Destroyers. Tricky to say the least!
Lozza007
That’s why Z54 is the most important zone to the allies
I like the sz19 idea but at the end of the day the Allies need to be in a position to fan out and capture all of the money islands (DEI, Philippines, Java etc) with Subs, and then block an additional sea zone outward with Destroyers. Tricky to say the least!
Lozza007
Out of the box, it’s a lost cause for the Allies. SZ19 is just something to take if the opportunity presents itself.
Van Trump is the one I saw the idea from. He always advocated a naval base on Midway, from which SZ19 is reachable for the US through SZ6. Its a good move, but the Japanese will see it and block it with a surface ship in SZ6 covered by ample air units. If the US has transports at Midway, and the Japanese block SZ6, those transports can always swing down to attack Truk if there is an opening there.
Anything the Allies do though is counterable by the Japanese. Once the players get good at playing the Japanese side without letting Japans units get picked off willy nilly, then playing the Allies is just an excercise in futility.
That’s why Z54 is the most important zone to the allies
Q.F.T. :mrgreen:
It’s very clear that no allied strategy will be able to, in your opinion, counter the Japanese plan that you’ve fine tuned over 150 hours of game so we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I find making the same moves over and over very boring so I’ll continue to enjoy the variety and challenge offered by the game and if we ever get a chance to play you can show me your unbeatable strategy. I mean at this point I can’t really lose. What your implying is that if you win using those moves it’s not that you’re good, the game is just broken. But if I win then it’s because I managed to outplay and outmaneuver you in spite of your broken game plan. Game on!!! 8-)
Oh and they’re not assumptions if that’s what I would be building. ;) I’ve personally never tried building an new complex in Korea, I never really like to build new ones, but now that you say it’s impossible to pull off I kind of want to.
But you should certainly do what Whackamatt suggested. Post your planned moves. I’m very curious to know where all your planes and naval ships are when you’re setting this plan in motion over the first few turns. Feel free to explain why you’re positioning where you are and what kind of Allied moves you’re expecting to be able to counter. You never know maybe you’ll convince me and I’ll sign your petition to make the immediate US bonus on a Japanese turn one attack. I’m almost always in favour of making a game more challenging.
But you should certainly do what Whackamatt suggested. Post your planned moves. I’m very curious to know where all your planes and naval ships are when you’re setting this plan in motion over the first few turns. Feel free to explain why you’re positioning where you are and what kind of Allied moves you’re expecting to be able to counter. You never know maybe you’ll convince me and I’ll sign your petition to make the immediate US bonus on a Japanese turn one attack. I’m almost always in favour of making a game more challenging.
Kaufschtick and others on this site have been calling for effective allied strategies from day 1.
We KNOW the J1, J2, J3, J4 moves that work. They have been posted in more than one thread. What we desperately need is someone to post the Allied counter moves instead of nebulous assurances of parity.
Specifically, what exactly does US buy their first 4-5 turns?
What is the most effective use of UK power, which decays rapidly?
Where exactly do you move and place Chinese inf? (bear in mind any defensive stack gets whacked by MJAP, massive Japanese air power)
How can ANZAC best support the growing American fleet?
My original idea for parity is simply ban the J1 attack. I’m inclined to use the caveman method developed by Kaufschtick. Regardless, when I play the allies we use OOB rules, when I play Japan, I offer game balance.
As far as sticking with a game through to its conclusion, Japan is on a tight deadline. If the game is not clearly won within a few turns it is probably an allied victory. If Japan reaches the point where it has to dodge a superior US fleet, Japan has lost.
I favor Midway because of the psychological effect it has on my opponents. They tend to overprotect Japan. A competent Japanese player can counter it.
As far as using ANZAC and UK air to whittle down the Japanese fleet, if a Japanese player allows this to happen they deserve to lose.
I have lost twice, both times as allies. Both times to less than perfect opponents. Japan can afford to make a couple of mistakes, the allies none.
I likened it to a chess match: the winning player (Japan)has any number of imaginative moves and strategies to try. The losing player (Allies) must make one perfect defensive move after another just to survive.
Umm, kauf’s J1 attack wa self-described as:
Take Philippines and Celebes, sink Z37, take FIC, and all possible chinese tt
No specific movements. EG, how many ships to Z35? How many planes attack Hong Konng, Yunan. Where to move the stuff in noncombat? What to buy?
It’s very clear that no allied strategy will be able to, in your opinion, counter the Japanese plan that you’ve fine tuned over 150 hours of game so we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I find making the same moves over and over very boring so I’ll continue to enjoy the variety and challenge offered by the game and if we ever get a chance to play you can show me your unbeatable strategy. I mean at this point I can’t really lose. What your implying is that if you win using those moves it’s not that you’re good, the game is just broken. But if I win then it’s because I managed to outplay and outmaneuver you in spite of your broken game plan. Game on!!! 8-)
Oh and they’re not assumptions if that’s what I would be building. ;) I’ve personally never tried building an new complex in Korea, I never really like to build new ones, but now that you say it’s impossible to pull off I kind of want to.
But you should certainly do what Whackamatt suggested. Post your planned moves. I’m very curious to know where all your planes and naval ships are when you’re setting this plan in motion over the first few turns. Feel free to explain why you’re positioning where you are and what kind of Allied moves you’re expecting to be able to counter. You never know maybe you’ll convince me and I’ll sign your petition to make the immediate US bonus on a Japanese turn one attack. I’m almost always in favour of making a game more challenging.
He only plays face to face, and I believe he’s only played 1 person
I’m pleased you debunked the Korea IC strat. It’s a great objective, but I was always puzzled how the US was supposed to hold it. Like you say, the US can’t get units there until turn C, giving the Japanese ample opportunity to regather its Transports and counterattack.
That’s incorrect. America can get more units there on the same turn they build the factory, because there could be a steady stream of 1-2 transports with protection. America’s income is 50+, enough to keep some transports moving in, and reinforcements for the fleet that took Korea.
The US doesn’t have the strength to bust into the zone, recover from the Japanese counter attack (there will be a Japanese counter attack), and then bust back in all over again on consecutive turns.
But if they keep the zone, they won’t need to “bust back in.”
The Japanese can place units straight into the battle.
The US has to bring them in from two turns away, telescoping their intentions
Again, let them be telescoped. If Japan sees it coming and shifts more units to counter them, that’s less units marching towards India. It makes it more difficult for Japan to hold the SZ around Japan and take India in a timely manner. Plus if America is dedicating everything to go there every turn, there will be reinforcements everyturn. So it really isn’t instant reinforcements vs. 2 turns away. Once the SZ is taken, it’s reinforcements every turn for both sides.
The problem with the Korean strat, is the same problem with the “take Truk” strat, which is the same problem as all the other Allied strats. The Japanese just have too much to start with, and the Allies never can make it up.
I agree that the Japanese can effectively counter most Allied strats, but I disagree that the Allies can never make it up.
That’s incorrect. America can get more units there on the same turn they build the factory, because there could be a steady stream of 1-2 transports with protection. America’s income is 50+, enough to keep some transports moving in, and reinforcements for the fleet that took Korea.
But if they keep the zone, they won’t need to “bust back in.”
You’re suggesting that the US can move into SZ6 and hold it?
Are you suggesting that transports are going to be able to move into SZ6 and reinforce Korea without Japanese air units in Japan having anything to say about it?
Lets look at some facts.
J1=26 IPCs
J2=40+ IPCs
J3=60+ IPCs
J4=60+ IPCs (usually 65+)
J5=60+ IPCs (Usually 67+)
Total=246 IPCs
US1=17 IPCs
US2=55 IPCs
US3=55 IPCs
US4=55 IPCs
US5=55 IPCs
Total=237
The Japanese start the game with 28 air units, and stand a good chance of loosing a fighter against the British BB at Singapore, leaving them with 27.
The combined Allies start the game with 20 air units, and will loose two of them in the PI on J1, leaving them with 18.
The difference in IPCs between the Japanese air units and the Allies combined is a whopping 100 IPCs.
Consider also that one of the Allied planes is Chinese, 5 are British and vital to them, and 4 more are ANZAC (this is actually extremely useful for the Allies). That leaves the US with 8 air units.
If you think the US are going to go into SZ6, and beat the Japanese air units there (which they might be able to do in the opening turn of combat there), operating from Japan’s airbase, and bring in reinforcements the next turn(s), then I don’t know what to say to you in response other that to say we’re not playing the same game.
I agree that the Japanese can effectively counter most Allied strats, but I disagree that the Allies can never make it up.
It’s not that I want to disagree with you, it’s just that what you’re posting we’ve “been there, done that” already, and it doesn’t work.
It sounds like it could, or should, when discussed though, because we did the same thing. Then we tried it. Then we tried it again when it didn’t work. Then we tried it over again.
Then we tried everything else we could think of, and we came here to see if anyone else had tried something that worked. We tried some stuff from here that we saw, and mixed some of those ideas with our own. Still no luck.
I’m not trying to ruin the game for you or anyone else. We’re just sharing what we’ve experienced with folks here to see what feedback we get. So far it’s not too different from what we’ve played ourselves, which isn’t good, nor what we wanted to find. We’re both long time A&A players, and love the game.
What we desperately need is someone to post the Allied counter moves instead of nebulous assurances of parity.
Japan can afford to make a couple of mistakes, the allies none.
I likened it to a chess match: the winning player (Japan)has any number of imaginative moves and strategies to try. The losing player (Allies) must make one perfect defensive move after another just to survive.
That last line there hits the nail right square on the head.
QUOTED FOR TRUTH
btw, those of you proposing to attack the sea of Japan from Hawaii should be aware it takes 2 turns to do so. So if you say you are going to attack Japan turn 6 you actually won’t reach there until turn 7. Hope the Japanese fleet is out of range, because the USN (without scrambling defense and with fully loaded transports) is definitely within the range of Japanese air.
I would normally place the bulk of the Japanese fleet at PI at this point, with maybe a few ships at TRUK and/or Singapore.
So, 2 turns to reach Japan, unless, of course, the Japanese player blunders and fails to block this very obvious build up with a DD,
OR
US Player bases his fleet out of a Midway seabase :-D
Thanks for talking Stick. I haven’t been scouring the forums for too long, so I’m trying to catch up and understand everything. As you say, “you’ve been there and done that” while I’m still in the brainstorming phase. Lol.
So if you’ll humor me, I don’t think I have too many posts left on the subject, but continuing on:
You’re suggesting that the US can move into SZ6 and hold it?
Yes.
Are you suggesting that transports are going to be able to move into SZ6 and reinforce Korea without Japanese air units in Japan having anything to say about it?
Yes. All this is with the assumption that Japan has only planes in Japan. Fighters can’t reach the Hawaiian SZ without carrier support. Bombers could land in the Marshall Islands, but America is still building mostly navy. Whatever bombers Japan has on it would have to destroy 40IPCish worth of protection before the transports die.
If America does attack SZ6, the Japanese planes can either scramble to defend against the landing. If America does take Korea, I don’t see how the once defeated Japanese airforce can counter attack AND destroy the Hawaiian transports.
Hmmm. I suppose it all depends on how well the Indian assault is going. If Japan no longer needs to spend money in that direction, than their 60ish IPCs would be enough to counter America’s naval reinforcements because they also lose money in buying transports.
Lets look at some facts.
J1=26 IPCs
J2=40+ IPCs
J3=60+ IPCs
J4=60+ IPCs (usually 65+)
J5=60+ IPCs (Usually 67+)
Total=246 IPCsUS1=17 IPCs
US2=55 IPCs
US3=55 IPCs
US4=55 IPCs
US5=55 IPCs
Total=237
So…does this assume that Japan spends absolutely nothing that goes towards India? Wouldn’t the Major IC subtract 30 from Japan’s totals? Then 10 infantry would subtract 30 more. And for each fighter sent against India and China is another -10 for Japan.
Here, I can give you better statistics:
Japan
Cost Qty IPC total
Infantry 3 29 87
Artillery 4 6 24
Mech 4 1 4
Tank 6 1 6
IPC total 121
Cost Qty IPC total
Sub 6 2 12
Transpor 7 3 21
Destroye 8 4 32
Cruiser 12 2 24
Carrier 16 3 48
Battleshi 20 2 40
IPC total 177
Fighter 10 14 140
Tac Bom 11 10 110
Bomber 12 4 48
IPC total 298
Grand Total 596
Starting income 27
Production 27
America
Cost Qty IPC total
Infantry 3 5 15
Artillery 4 1 4
Mechan 4 1 4
Tank 6 1 6
IPC total 29
Cost Qty IPC total
Sub 6 1 6
Transpor 7 3 21
Destroye 8 2 16
Cruiser 12 1 12
Carrier 16 1 16
Battleshi 20 1 20
IPC total 91
Fighter 10 3 30
Tac 11 3 33
Bomber 12 3 36
IPC total 99
Grand Total 219
Starting income 17
Production 55
War Production 57
Difference 377IPCs
Turns at war economy to make up the difference 9.425
(Assuming no changes in income)
If you think the US are going to go into SZ6, and beat the Japanese air units there (which they might be able to do in the opening turn of combat there), operating from Japan’s airbase, and bring in reinforcements the next turn(s), then I don’t know what to say to you in response other that to say we’re not playing the same game.
But I don’t understand what’s to stop the reinforcements if America actually wins the battle. At this point in the game, has the Japanese navy usually finished mopping up and is now in position to help with the counter-attack? If you start throwing in extra Japanese ships then I’m not sure America could really take it in the first place.
It’s not that I want to disagree with you, it’s just that what you’re posting we’ve “been there, done that” already, and it doesn’t work.
I can respect that. And thanks for taking the time to answer. I would still like to see a move by move, as that may help people come up with a counter. Something that seems insignificant to most people may actually make a difference.
I have tested against this strategy yet, so I can’t commit to my opinion.
I am, however starting to see that if a certain strategy requires this much in-depth analysis to develop a counter, then the game may indeed be imbalanced.
It sounds like it could, or should, when discussed though, because we did the same thing. Then we tried it. Then we tried it again when it didn’t work. Then we tried it over again.
Well, at least you have friends that are willing to play! I have to drive 4 hours and set up a weekend to play with somebody live. :p Broken or not, I’m still jealous. Using Edit mode in Triple A or moving all of the pieces by myself isn’t as fun (though I still do it.)
I’m not trying to ruin the game for you or anyone else. We’re just sharing what we’ve experienced with folks here to see what feedback we get.
Well, it won’t be ruined for me until I’m able to put in as many hours as you in the game. It’s still fresh and new in my mind, and none in my group know about this strategy. :evil:
Well, it won’t be ruined for me until I’m able to put in as many hours as you in the game. It’s still fresh and new in my mind, and none in my group know about this strategy. :evil:
We’re not about to let the game get ruined for us. It’s just a question as to whether or not the OOB set up and rules are worth playing any longer.
rwthe US their 40 IPC national advantage immediately when Japan attacks. Will this be too much? Who knows, but after 7 games, each one has been competitive for both sides and all 7 have been a blast to play. That’s with one easy change.
In the OOB rules, I was also against giving Japan 5 extra IPCs each for controlling India, Sydney and Hawaii. I thought the 5 extra for Hawaii was OK, but the Japanese get all of the countries IPCs on the IPC track when they capture a capital.
My beef was that if India does fall, the Japanese are going to be at 78 IPCs to the US - ANZAC 70. Remember, if India falls, there goes the Burma Road for China. If they aren’t knocked out of the game by then, they woun’t last long without the boost gained from the Burma Road.
So if the game is to continue on after India falling, it isn’t going to be much of a game with Japan bringing in 78 IPCs a turn to the remaining Allies 70.
So my thinking was that if Japan didn’t get the extra 5 a turn for India, then the game would be worth playing on. I felt that the Japanese should only get the 5 extra for hawaii, not India or Sydney.
Also, I though, why in the world do the Japanese need the added advantage of the 6 Kamikazie shots when they have so many advantages already. I thought that needed to go too.
BUT…
In the games where the US gets their 40 IPCs right away, all the above stuff seems to make sense. So by making that one little change, move the US IPC marker up 40 the instant the Japanese attack, we’ve seen the games to be fun for both sides, and everything else in the game made perfect sense, gamewise.
The OOB rules are kinda ruined for us until somebody shows us some strategy that we’ve not seen ourselves for the Allies that makes them competitive.
Talking doesn’t get it, it has to be play tested.
I would normally place the bulk of the Japanese fleet at PI at this point, with maybe a few ships at TRUK and/or Singapore.
After Singapore falls, the Japanese mainly stay at the PI as you say, moving back east when they are set to attack India.
So, 2 turns to reach Japan, unless, of course, the Japanese player blunders and fails to block this very obvious build up with a DD
Those blocks can be a rude shock to the US too. :evil:
OR
US Player bases his fleet out of a Midway seabase :-D
I like the Midway naval base as a means to get at SZ19, which I think is the Japanese weak spot, not SZ6. The drawback with having too much based at Midway for the US is that it can’t make it to SZ54 in one move. To me, if the US wants to threaten SZ6, then do it from Pearl, and if the Japanese block, the US gets to snack on a DD for every turn the Japanese block.
By my way of thinking, Midway makes the Japanese commit ships to SZ6 to block a possible Midway->SZ16->SZ6->SZ19 US attack. This can be done with just transports. This assault doesn’t require the US to stay and fight on follow on turns either. The transports can be lost. The troops don’t have to stand in place and fend off Japanese counter attacks, they can move inland revitalizing the Chinese.
To me, this is the dagger to the heart the Japanese don’t want to see happen. Americans liberating Chinese territories, which in turn allows Chinese troops to pop up in territories with the US troops.
If US troops can move off the coast in one turn, they are going to be a big factor in freeing Chinese territories, which the Chinese are going to recieve IPCs for on their following turn.
Building an IC in Korea requires the US to hold off Japanese counter attacks, and is too slow to develope.
All the stuff discussed in this thread as far as what the US can do, or should try to do is really stuff. In games we’ve played using the 40 immediate change, it all becomes very relevant strategies.
I mean, the US has to carry the ball as far as the Allied power to take the fight to the Japanese. With only 17 IPCs on turn one, it means the Americans won’t even be able to place a decent force on the board until turn 2, which won’t move to a position of relevance until turn 3!
The Japanese have 3 CVs, 2 BBs, 2 CAs, 4 DDs, 2SSs, 3 trns, 28 freakin’ air units, enough troops in Asia & Japan to do what they need for the first 3 turns. They will spend 126 IPCs in the first 3 turns.
Against this, the US start with a meager 1 CV, 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD, 1 trns, 1 SS, 8 air units & 8 land units. This and 17 IPCs is all the US has to take on the Japanese for the first 3 turns.
They will spend 127 IPCs over the first 3 turns, but the first big 55 IPC buy of that won’t even move into position to do anything until turn 3.
By giving the US the 40 immediately, the Japanese only get a free hand for two turns, not three, and it makes a big difference.
It’s unfortunate that WOTC couldn’t spot this but it seems to me you are right kauf.
The US is always just 1 turn behind no matter what they do. Having production 1 turn from the theatre is enough of a disadvantage without the income lag.
To return to the previous chess analogy: it seems like the OOB setup is a little like giving the white player 2 moves before the black player gets one.
Thanks for all of your time spent researching the matter… though I wish I had the time and opponenets to log 200 hours of AA in half a year. ;-)
It’s unfortunate that WOTC couldn’t spot this but it seems to me you are right kauf.
The US is always just 1 turn behind no matter what they do. Having production 1 turn from the theatre is enough of a disadvantage without the income lag.
To return to the previous chess analogy: it seems like the OOB setup is a little like giving the white player 2 moves before the black player gets one.
Thanks for all of your time spent researching the matter… though I wish I had the time and opponenets to log 200 hours of AA in half a year. ;-)
Lets see, my best friend, who goes by Buckeyeboy on here, well, we’ve known each other for damn near 30 years. He works around Dayton, and he’s off again like on the 27th & 28th. So we have yet another potential to game for a couple days.
He recently relocated to Dayton from Columbus, and has the ole’ bachelor pad going. Its too far from Columbus to drive out and back in one day, for the most part. So when I go out, he has a big condo and I just stay over. That way we can booze it up responsibly without having to worry about any driving going on.
So what happens is a butt load of game time! On the 6th & 7th, I went out and got to his place at 7:45pm Monday night, and was there until 7:45pm Wednesday night. I figured we logged about 28 or so game hours!
I think we’re set to do that again in about another week and a half, as I’m hoping to be on vacation that week. I was keeping loose track of our game hours, but we passed the 200hr mark some time ago, and I’ve since lost track.
We’re hoping that we don’t discover a flaw in the immediate 40 that tips things too far the Allied way, but if we do, we’ll just modify the immediate 40 to like…say, immediate 30, bank 10, or something like that for the first US turn.
We’ll see, and we’ll keep playtesting.
Who knows, maybe some intrepid soul will find a good strat for the Allies in the OOB set up that makes that play out better? You never know.
