@SuperbattleshipYamato Yeah I get you 100%. Alternate History is a niche interest in the first place so finding other people willing to go down the rabbit hole is always tough.
Japan in WW I
-
The only major thing they did was take Tsingtao. Germany tried to get it to help Mexico attack the US, but this was impossible. What could Japan attack? Even with a huge navy, without a good army(something they lacked even in WW2-they didn’t have the logistics to take China or India), they can just take small costal territories.
Seriously?
Japan was call the Prussia of the east during the Great War era, and their armed forces were top knotch. Better yet, all that bushido-mongering hadnt taken place and Japanese troops were actually well behaved.
Wether or not their involvment would have caused the European alliance to shift enough forces to change the deadlock on the western front is doubtful, espically as Japan would have been faced with fighting Britian, France and Russia simultaniously, they may have been overwhelmed. No commander at that time understood what a modern war would entail and how their new weapons of war would effect battles.
Japan, did have some experiance in this field, having fought with Russia about a decade before hand, but how well, or what if any, lessons were learned by Japanese commanders of the day has been lost to history. You cannot discount what impact Japan may have had because of having a poor army. If anything, the skill of their army may be the best thing going for themI agree that they had a strong NAVY, but I’m not sure of it’s army, since 20 years later, they were unable to take more than one third of China
-
Now although Japan did crush the Russian navy one needs to look at context. The russian navy equipment wise was no Great Britain though the brit battlecruisers had a glass jaw and tended to blow up quite nicely, a lesson not learned with the Hood. In any event, the russians had poor training, low morale and motivation and had just sailed around the world to get to the pacific coast where the Japs were waiting. With the presense no surpise the Japs could pick and choose the timing of the engagement.
Nothing in the Pacific really affected the trench warfare situation in Europe. Japan was not going to be able to blockade Britain in the Atlantic nor could they break the blockade on the Germans which ultimately is what took Germany down. Remember, when the Germans signed the armistace, no Germany territory was held by the allies and russia had sued for peace giving up lots to the Germans.
I am sure if the Germans had not been starving they would have eventually lost to the greater numbers, by the end of the war the US was adding 10,000 men per day to the combat rolls. But it would have been perhaps by 1920 and the French army had nearly revolted a few times even by 19166, who knows what would have happened had the French gotten tired of the war. They really had born the brunt of the damage and losses and could not be expected to keep doing it indefinately.
-
I did read on wikipedia that the Japs helped crush a mutiny by Indians in Malaya and bolstered the defense of the Royal Navy in the Pacific.
Anyway, Japan was not likely to join the central powers, since it had an alliance with Britain
-
Dylan, do you just randomly say things? China could take care of Japan during the period of WWI? First of all, Japan was on the side of the allies in WW I. Japan mopped the oceans with the russian fleet in 1905, russian cried uncle and Japan became a serious player in world affairs. Japan played it smart and got the modest german possessions in the east for taken sides with ‘the good guys’.
China had NO navy so I am not sure how you think China was going to project power. The best China could hope for is that Japan would invade them and get tired of killing Chinese perhaps running out of bullets and would eventually give up and leave.
Well first of all were talking about if Japan wasn’t an ally, and boats don’t matter if you don’t have any land. The US would also fight them in the pacific and they were weaker then in WW2, so really thats what would happen if Japan was a Central Power.
-
The Japanese armies inability to take China had much more to do with their occupation policy and the fierce resistence this fostered and their logistical limitations/difficulties. Tacticaly, the Japanese army was far superior to most, in not all, Chinese forces, and were seldomly defeated in battle by them.
During the Great War ear, this was even more pronounced, and was a time where a few victories scored in a major campagin, could have won a war in China for Japan, espicaly with a better behaved army.
What impact this would have had against the European Alliance is unclear, but given the way in which the Imperial Armed Forces of Japan had preformed earlier, during this time period, it could have been major -
Dylan, if you don’t have any land, you don’t have a country nor an army so…… I kinda think boats matter if your nation expects to go anywhere other than on the defensive. If you figure letting the enemy sail up and down your coast raiding ports and coastal towns is a great way to win wars, then don’t have boats to fight enemy boats.
-
The US alone good defeat Japan quite easily, their navy was stronger, their air force was stronger, their army was stronger. It would change WW2 quite a bit if they did that. China could hold off on any Asian assault (maybe with Russian assistant.)
-
@Dylan:
The US alone good defeat Japan quite easily, their navy was stronger, their air force was stronger, their army was stronger. It would change WW2 quite a bit if they did that. China could hold off on any Asian assault (maybe with Russian assistant.)
I dont think China stood much of a chance aginst a Japanese invasion during the Great War era. The Chinese we’re too dis-unified, and the Japanese of the day were much more flexiable diplomatically in those days, and could have manouvered better. Also their amry was far better behaved and their occupation would have been nothing like what they did in WW2. I think Japan could have conqured China during that time period.
What im unsure of is how Japan would have impacted the fighting in Europe or against the Eorpean Powers in the far east. -
@Dylan:
The US alone good defeat Japan quite easily, their navy was stronger, their air force was stronger, their army was stronger. It would change WW2 quite a bit if they did that. China could hold off on any Asian assault (maybe with Russian assistant.)
I dont think China stood much of a chance aginst a Japanese invasion during the Great War era. The Chinese we’re too dis-unified, and the Japanese of the day were much more flexiable diplomatically in those days, and could have manouvered better. Also their amry was far better behaved and their occupation would have been nothing like what they did in WW2. I think Japan could have conqured China during that time period.
What im unsure of is how Japan would have impacted the fighting in Europe or against the Eorpean Powers in the far east.farmers could wack them on the head, like they have more people then Japan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1907
-
Numbers are great, But China didnt have the arms, and more importantly, given how the chinese people reacted the the warlords running around, the will, to resist. The Great War era was a different time, and you cant apply WW2 thinking and examples to a WW1 setting
-
@ABWorsham:
The only major thing they did was take Tsingtao. Germany tried to get it to help Mexico attack the US, but this was impossible. What could Japan attack? Even with a huge navy, without a good army(something they lacked even in WW2-they didn’t have the logistics to take China or India), they can just take small costal territories.
How would the threat of Japan in the Pacific effect the North Sea showdown?
Not at all? The best the Japs ever did in putting navy far away was subs in the Med
I’m not suggesting the Japan would have ships in the North Sea. How would England react to a serious Pacific threat.
Spee’s cruisers caused considerable problems to the Allies in 1914.; enough of a problem to justify the stationing of battlecruiser in the Port Stanley. The Allies would have to counter a Japanese threat with a massive fleet. This could have even the odds in the North Sea and allowed Germany to actually use its navy.
Had the 400,000 Australia troops had to fight in the Pacific and not againist the Ottomans and in France how would this effect the war?
-
@ABWorsham:
@ABWorsham:
The only major thing they did was take Tsingtao. Germany tried to get it to help Mexico attack the US, but this was impossible. What could Japan attack? Even with a huge navy, without a good army(something they lacked even in WW2-they didn’t have the logistics to take China or India), they can just take small costal territories.
How would the threat of Japan in the Pacific effect the North Sea showdown?
Not at all? The best the Japs ever did in putting navy far away was subs in the Med
I’m not suggesting the Japan would have ships in the North Sea. How would England react to a serious Pacific threat.
Spee’s cruisers caused considerable problems to the Allies in 1914.; enough of a problem to justify the stationing of battlecruiser in the Port Stanley.
Japan involving itself on the side of the Central powers may of very well won the central powers the war. Although this greatly depends on whether or not the Americans would end up getting involved or not. If in 1914 Japan went to war with the Triple Entete the possibility of a central powers victory would greatly improve.
After the humiliation of the Ruso-Japanese war of 1905 I dont think that Russia would of been in any position to challenge Japans navy in the pacific or make any meaningful commitment of their ground forces there either. Also the Russians were defeated WW1 so I dont think they would of entered the equation too much.
The real death blow to the central powers was the blockade by the Royal Navy that caused the starvation of 750,000 Germans, with all the German and Austro-Hungarian troops fighting on the Western front as well enough food for all the soldiers and civilians a central powers victory goes from being a possibility to a likelyhood.
With the combined power of the battle hardened IJN and the German high seas fleet an engagement like Jutland would likely be a victory for the Central powers especially considering the British having to commit dozens of ships to the protection of their possesions in Asia. With control of the seas the central powers could of invaded Egypt with the help of their Ottoman allies they could cut Britain off from the Suez canal and their Asian empire.
To those of you who say China would fight the Japanese i’m not so sure. At that time in history relations between Japan and China were amicable and the Chinese had no love for the British or French empires in Asia, the Chinese may very well of joined the central powers if the wind was blowing that way and the price was right.
So in my opinion I think Japanese involvement in world war 1 may of very well got the central powers across the line.
-
Japan wouldn’t sacrifice their ever so precious Anglo-Japanese Alliance that they strived for in 1902. But if Japan did, an alliance with Germany and the other Central Powers wouldn’t have helped, and in terms of Japanese national security, it would’ve been an utter disaster. Not much to be gained in battle concessions (that could be feasibly taken), and the price of defeat would’ve been quite high
Honestly, Japan tried to stay neutral in the Great War, but the aforementioned alliance drew them in. If the alliance had not been signed, perhaps Japan’s ultimatum on the Republic of China, the Twenty-One Demands, could’ve gone smoother. Of course, that is an entirely different topic.
-
Speculative scenarios like this are always so much fun, but they are also very subjective. What one could say is a weakness, another might see as a strenght. This makes it very difficult to define the paramaters of any given scenario. I think Japan’s entry into the war, on the central powers side, can be divided accordingly.
Japans reasons for Entry: Japan had several cases to enter the war against the Allied powers. Firstly, Britian had stayed out of the Russo-Japanese war earlier in the century, and then worked, seemingly, aginst the Japanese during the peace, denying Japanese war gains and reperations payments. All this despite the “friendship” fostered by the Anglo-Japanese alliance of 1902. Also, the Russian Empire in the region was weaker then ever, and many Japanese felt that they had been cheated out of their rightful gains in their 1905 war with them. German diplomats could have made a strong case to the Japanese to join them, with the possibility of gains against the Russian and British Empries. Also this could have been the Japanese chance to gain domanant status of China.
(the browser acts funny when I get down to a certain lenght of post, so i’ll divide this up into several posts, sorry of the inconvienence :( )
-
China
Regardless of what Japan might have done, it couldnt go anywhere unless it had some form of control or influence over China. This does not mean that Japan would have to conqure China. China then was a dysfunctional republic, and Sun Yet-sen was still very much involved in its political life. The Japanese goverment of the day respected and liked Dr. Sun, offering all kinds of aid to his various endevors. A strong case could be made by Japan to the republic to join them on the central powers side. At that time, the warlordism that would later come to be epidemic in China’s early republic, was limited to only a few provinces. Also One of Dr. Sun’s stances was on throwing out the forigner enchrochments on China’s soverginty. Britian, France and, to a lesser extant by this time, Russia held control over a number of Chinese cities and ports. British positions streched as far inland as Hankou and Wuchang, while French encrochment into southern provinces of Guangxi and Yunan was at its hieght. If Japan were to offer China the chance of getting rid of these forigen devils, with Japanese aid, Chinese leadership would be hard pressed to not accept. Also, curcial to this would be some kind of guarantee for Japan to respect Chinese sovereignty and halt further expansion. Being far more open minded and flexiable, politically and diplomatically at the time then they would be a generation later, Japanese diplomats could have offered sometihng like this to the Chinese leaders. Along with material aid with its industry and military expansion China may well have agreeded and Joined the Central powers at Japans suggestion. Including a nationalistic goverment like Dr. Sun’s Republic could have only strengthed Japans claims to be fighting for an “Asia of the Asians”, and having a well behaved army, unlike the Imperial army of 20 years later, would also strenghtin this claim. -
Plan of Attack
Japanese plans for an attack would be agressive, but limited, as logistics, terrain, and great distances would hamper them more then anything else. There attacks would, as all had, begin with a major attack against enemy forces before a formal declaration of war. This would most likely consist with the combined Japanese fleet hitting the British pacific fleet at anchor in either Hong Kong or Singapore (i’ve been having trouble finding detailed information on where it was located and its exact size). This attack would be followed up by massive attacks on the isolated European concessions throughout China and on the British crown colony in Hong Kong. This would be done in conjunction with Chinese formations, which would mostly come from the Beiyang army. This formation would be more then a match for the limited number of european soliders they would be facing in their isolated concesions across China. A major Japanese thrust could be expected in the maritime province in Russia, supported by their northern warlord ally Zhang Zoulin and his Fengtian army, which was second in China in terms of training and equipment, to the Beiyang. A small number of Japanese troops would be sent to re-inforce German positions across the pacific as well. After the initial attack, the Japanese fleet would roam the seas seeking out what remained of the allied surface fleets, and attack allied shipping across the pacific, while smaller detachments of the fleet would more then likely be snet to support minor army actions around the theater as well. This would constitute the opening moves for Japan. -
The Japanese Imperial Army
The Japanese army of the time was built along German lines, and had larger infantry formation then their western European counter-parts. High in moral, well trained and cared for, and exceptionally well led at all levels of command, the Imprial army was a forced to be reckoned with. Their war with Russia had taught them many lessons. First of which was the importance in artillery. Imperial army leaders became aware of it importance during the Russo-Japanese war, and purchased 2 massive 240mm mortars from Germany to help their assaults. They also learned the futility of frontal assaults and adopted tactics of siege, and night attacks, which reduces casualties. The Japanese could also concentratre its forces more so then their europeans counter-parts, whos main focus was their own backyard.
The Allied powers in the far east were spread thin. Britian had only 1 Battalion of light infantry in Hong Kong at the time, with a further 2 or 3,000 men more in Malaya and Singapore, half of which were low moral sepoys of the Indian army who munitied in 1915, to reinforce them. The French had about 2,500 men spread out around their Indo-China holdings, most of them being positioned in the southern part of the territory. The Russians had the largest land force consisting of around 6,000 men formed in 2 army corps. One was positioned in Chita, on the western edge of Manchuria, it was 3,000 men strong and was made up of 3 Cossack regiments. The second was in the maritime province bordering eastern Manchuria and Korea. It was made up of a Dragoon regiment, 1 full and 1 half strenght cossack regiments and 1 battalion of Mountian Artillery. The Japanese army could deploy between 400 to 500,000 men with a further 200 to 300,000 that could be called upon as re-inforcments to replace losses. -
The Imperial Japanese Navy
The Japanese navy of the day was a highly effective and very modern force, having only been created with in the last 20 years, with most of its ships being buitl with in the last 10. It consisted of 2 Deradnoughts, 1 modern and 2 2nd class battlecruisers, 10 pre-dreadnought battleships, 8 armoured cruisers, 15 protected cruisers, 6 light cruisers, around 50 destroyers, 12 submarines, numerous smaller costal and torpedo ships, and an aircraft and seaplane carrier. Most of these ships had been originaly built in European shipyards, only being constructed in Japan later. However, by 1910 only 20% of the parts needed to build these ships were comming from Europeans. The Japanese stratgey of “copy, improve, innovate” ment that by 1914 there was nearly no difference in the quality of ships comming from Japanese shipyards, as those comming from British ones. The battles against the Russians had taught the Japanese commanders the value of big gun ships, and most of the ships designed and built after this period reflect this. The battle of tsushima taught them the value of keeping their fleet concentrated and coordinated. The Japanese fleet was also the first in the world to use wireless telegraphy helping giving them an edge in intership communications and coordinations.
The greatest advantage for the Japanese fleet was that their European counter-parts were scattered and small in number, concentrating most of thie ships in European waters. The allied forces arrayed against them were small and would have been no match for a combined Japanese fleet. They were, for the most part, a mix of cruisers of various qualities, light, armoured, and protected, along with destroyers and other smaller vessles. The British pacific squadron had the largest ship on the allied side, with a battle cruiser stationed, I believe along with the few other escorting ships, in Singapore.
Japans opening strike on this force would see this, the only real allied force capable of stoping the Japanese, sunk rapidly with most likely limited Japanese losses. Also this combined fleet, re-inforced and working in conjunction with the German pacific squadron, would seek out any other large concentrations of allied warships and sink them. This would cause the Allied command in Europe, espically the British, to have to send more ships to protect its holdings and its commerical shipping, which would be at the central powers mercy in the pacific. -
Japanese Industry
Japanese Industry of the day was still in its early life. The had developed rapidly and were of the more modern and effiecnt industries. The one thing that really hampered Japanese industry was its total lack of raw materials. However, with China brought into the fold, so to speak, in this scenario, Japan would have access to a large untaped resource . Moreover, China’s industry was so small and backwards that, for the most part, Japan could exploit and take what it needed, with out it really being missed by the Chinese. In exchange for this access, Japan could have traded arms and munitions, manufactured goods, industrial equipemnt and other things to China. Under the guise of helping the Chinese, Japan could have set up numerious large firms as joint “Sino-Japanese” enterprizes to further gain access to Chinese resources. Japan was far more adaptable to circumstances then then they were in the 30’s, and perhapse the political leadership of the day could have found a better way then the infamous “21 Demands” to work with China.
Also, in 1914, America and the Netherlands were neutural and could have been potential trading partners. The Dutch east indies were rich in all sorts of raw materials and the Dutch could have done a brisk bussiness with the Japanese, espically after their initial attack.
Ameirca is, of course, the wild card. Though not willing to or wanting anything to do with the European war, America had been jockying with Japan for position in the pacific since the 19th century. American politicians and army commanders would have been made very nervious by a Japanese attack on the Allies, but would have been hampered enough by lack of popular will to go to war. Also, by bringing China under their wing, and apperaring as though they were trying to help China get back on their feet, would have strenghted Japans position in the eyes of the American home front. For some odd reason, Americans seemed to have a soft spot for China around this time, and it would continue until the communist take over in 1949. As if they felt bad for China being forced to ceede so much to the Europeans, yet blind to the fact that their goverment was doing pretty much the same thing. So, a Japanese attack would worry and scare some Americans, espically the top military, political, and financial leaders, your average American might see it as Japan trying to help their “brother asian” neighbor, get out from under the heel of the Europeans, and would score a major propaganda victory. -
Very few of the actions in the Pacific affected the war overall. The only use of the German colonies that Japan attacked was to serve as coaling ports, and they were seldom used for that as it was. Even on the side of the Allies Japan didn’t devote their entire military to the war effort, as most of the other powers did. Had Japan joined the Central Powers, the most they likely would have done would be to disrupt British Southeast Asian trade, which may have encouraged Britain to deploy a battle squadron to the region but would not have had a major effect on the the war.
On a side note, though, if Japan did join the Central Powers, the alliance would have to re-name itself (as they would no longer only be Central European powers).
Suggested Topics
