Iraq is a political subject.
Weapons of Mass Destruction and Iraq
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@F_alk:
@El:
"U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441…
Para. 5…Recognizing the threat Iraq’s noncompliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,
…The UN majority said Iraq had WMDs…
Actually, they do not say so. It appears that they do, but they don’t. Let me re-state the first, to make it clearer:
“Recognizing that as well Iraq’s noncompliance as any proliferation of WMDs pose threats”
So, they talk of 2 dangerous things … never expect that diplomats say something that could be used against them ;)F_alk,
Are you saying that because it doesn’t say…
"Para. 5…Recognizing the threat Iraq’s noncompliance with Council resolutions and
IRAQ’S proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,
…
They are talking about two different things?Another side of that argument could be that because there is no qualifier in front of “proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles,” then Iraq is still the POSSESSOR here.
…and they are talking about one topic.
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of course it has still yet to be proven that Iraq IS the possessor of these weapons.
Regardless of whether they are found at this point or not, it would not demonstrate that this was an appropriate invasion and occupation. It would just demonstrate that the US guessed correctly. -
@cystic:
of course it has still yet to be proven that Iraq IS the possessor of these weapons.
Regardless of whether they are found at this point or not, it would not demonstrate that this was an appropriate invasion and occupation. It would just demonstrate that the US guessed correctly.Huh?
Guessed correctly? It’s a little more serious than just throwing darts and hoping you score with one of them. The US doesn’t simply “hope it’s right” while at the same time sending 500,000 troops into war.
What it does is validate our case for war. The UN resolution 1441 authorized us to use whatever means neccessary to ensure that Iraq does not obtain or develop WMD’s. Finding those WMD’s will make the war legitimate in most people’s eyes. The other people who still don’t find it legitimate will never agree that the war was just (regardless of ANY facts that prove to be correct), becuase they either:
A) don’t want to see the US be correct
or
B) have a politically slanted viewpoint that makes any reasonable assessment of the situation out of the question.
CC, what WOULD demonstrate that this was an appropriate war against Saddam?
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@Deviant:Scripter:
@cystic:
of course it has still yet to be proven that Iraq IS the possessor of these weapons.
Regardless of whether they are found at this point or not, it would not demonstrate that this was an appropriate invasion and occupation. It would just demonstrate that the US guessed correctly.Huh?
Guessed correctly? It’s a little more serious than just throwing darts and hoping you score with one of them. The US doesn’t simply “hope it’s right” while at the same time sending 500,000 troops into war.
Well no. This is assuming that the actual reason that the US went to war was because of violation of res 1441. The fact is, after the US invasion, they did everything they could to divert attention away from the appearance of using 1441. They used the tragic occurrances of 9/11 as an excuse to go to war. They used the removal of an evil tyrant as an excuse. Once the invasion began, res 1441 slid into the background. For me the whole idea is a joke. The US used 1441 as a way to justify to people like you (and the rest of the world) furthering their agenda in the middle east.
What it does is validate our case for war.
no it doesn’t. And now it never will.
The UN resolution 1441 authorized us to use whatever means neccessary to ensure that Iraq does not obtain or develop WMD’s. Finding those WMD’s will make the war legitimate in most people’s eyes. The other people who still don’t find it legitimate will never agree that the war was just (regardless of ANY facts that prove to be correct), becuase they either:
A) don’t want to see the US be correct
or
B) have a politically slanted viewpoint that makes any reasonable assessment of the situation out of the question.
how can you invade someone legitimately in retrospect? A paranoid US could ultimately see French and Canadian opposition to the invasion as anti-Americanism. If they invaded and found documents that suggested that we were going to cut them off from the oil and water we supply to them, then they could turn around and justify their invasion.
I don’t care if the US is correct or not. It makes no difference to me in my little life (and i’m certain that the opposite is true as well - the US cares not if i’m correct). The fact is Cuba is not Castro, but they live with his propaganda. The US is not Bush but they live with his propaganda (i.e. right-wing news organizations). I have few feelings on my desires for the US to be correct or not - aside from the desire to see that they are correct before they invade someone. As for a politically slanted viewpoint making my ability to reason out this situation you need to ask yourself if i’m a reasonable person in general. I think that at one point everyone on this board might have agreed that i wasn’t because of my varying posts/replies. The fact is, i have yet to firmly establish a political view. I never vote the same way in federal politics, i typically do vote Liberal in t provincial politics (pretty much close to the Conservative party in Manitoba, just fewer ties to business, but less wacko then the NDP). But this all has next to nothing to do with my views on Iraq.CC, what WOULD demonstrate that this was an appropriate war against Saddam?
at this point there is nothing. The fact is that the US invaded without enough information, against the will of much of the international community (which, believe it or not, is not just France and Germany).
I suppose that if the CIA was able to demonstrate that they had information a year ago which was unequivocal in its proof that Saddam was going to invade them (or an ally) first, but was slow to release it for some excellent reason then i’d say well, if it was known that they were going to attack first then ok.
Right now there has been no solid evidence of this, and they have not even had a shred of evidence that Saddam possessed any WMD - never mind that they were about to use them. -
So, it sounds like you’re taking the position that it’s alright to allow rogue countries to possess any weapon they choose, as long as they’re not firing them at us, even given the fact that they’ve used them in the past?? :o
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@Deviant:Scripter:
So, it sounds like you’re taking the position that it’s alright to allow rogue countries to possess any weapon they choose, as long as they’re not firing them at us, even given the fact that they’ve used them in the past?? :o
I do not think you are looking at this problem the right way. the US has possesses WMD Yet it has no legitimate or logically reason to possess and use them (oh yeah you nuked us so therefore I’m going to take this nuclear warhead and blow all your women and children and you to smithereens…). We have no (or I have not heard of any) DIRECT(notice how I worded that) threat from Mr. Hussien that he was going to use them (WMD) on us… Al-queida might have said they were going to use them but not Mr. Hussien himself… as far as you mentioning Rougue states yeah rougue states are not necessarily the ones you would want to have and use WMD but thay use other forms of terror each day that you do not hear about that they use. But even worse do you know that the USG (Goverment) supports them and Quote “normal” Goverments every day… there is a document (I cannot tell the exact place it is at, but I know it is on the state department website buried…) that was released stating the horrible stuff goverments, like the ones in Central America and Mid. east do to there citizens that was terrible but you never hear about those do you. And the Goverment supports it. just something to think about…
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@Deviant:Scripter:
So, it sounds like you’re taking the position that it’s alright to allow rogue countries to possess any weapon they choose, as long as they’re not firing them at us, even given the fact that they’ve used them in the past?? :o
i didn’t say this at all.
And i have a problem with the US autonomously saying that they “allow” or “disallow” other countries privileges that the US takes for granted.
Also the US evidently does not allow certain “rogue countries” (whatever that means anymore - see Al Queda during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan) these WMD even if they do not have them anymore which Iraq insisted, and the UN had yet to determine. -
@cystic:
@Deviant:Scripter:
So, it sounds like you’re taking the position that it’s alright to allow rogue countries to possess any weapon they choose, as long as they’re not firing them at us, even given the fact that they’ve used them in the past?? :o
i didn’t say this at all.
And i have a problem with the US autonomously saying that they “allow” or “disallow” other countries privileges that the US takes for granted.
Also the US evidently does not allow certain “rogue countries” (whatever that means anymore - see Al Queda during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan) these WMD even if they do not have them anymore which Iraq insisted, and the UN had yet to determine.Sure, you’re absolutely right. They are privelages. Privelages need to be earned. Countries like Iraq and North Korea have already had their opportunity to possess WMD’s legitimately. It didn’t work, therefore they’re going to get them taken away, whether they like it or not. The problem is, you’re still putting your trust more in Saddam Hussein then you are on us and our allies (see your last sentence).
As for you guest, please log-in and I might consider dignifying your answer with a reply.
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Deviant, where are the checks and balances? You believe in the American Government system, as I do, but possibly the most important part you insist on excluding on the international stage.
Simply enough, we’re going to get into a lot of long term trouble if we go around and “disarm” half the world. Weapons of Mass Destruction are not illegal, although in Iraq they were.
The right to develope weapons is not a privelage, its a right. Its called being a sovereign nation. Just because we have more guns doesn’t mean we should be going around denying countries their rights.
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Deviant, let me add something,
Right now, Terrorism is not a big deal. Cigarettes, Beer and Drugs each kill many times more people per year than terrorism has killed in modern history. If we continue going around the world creating more terrorism, we might become Israel.
Best thing we can do? Tell Israel “You have one month to stop inciting violence and ignore Hamas, or no more 4 billion dollars in weapons per year”
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Ugh.
I tried so hard to stay out of this debate, but I have to strenuously object (A Few Good Men Reference) to those comments Yanny.
There’s a difference between choosing to drink, smoke, or do drugs and getting blown up by some nut while you’re sitting at a club, cafe or bus station.
And Israel can’t ignore Hamas etc, because they will stop at only one thing…the destruction of Israel!
And if the fair minded Palestinians aren’t going to do anything about Israel has every right to defend themselves.
Israel or the US DON’T incite or cause more terrorism by their actions. That is a false argument. I think the majority of Palestinians and people from other Middle Eastern countries are fair and good people and would be happy with a 2 state solution, Israel and Palestine, and would like a good relationship with the West.
The problem is the fanatics don’t want that and incite terrorism to deflect the blame. It is much easier to blame the US or Israel then to blame your own country and leaders. We (the US) could do everything they ask for and we would still be a target, and Isreal has gone out of its way to try and do something about it, both in the Clinton years and recently and what do they get for it…more bombs!
The reason they are stepping up the bombing and trying to derail peace talks is because they (Hamas etc.) know that their days are numbered.
There is a good reason why many Palestinians want to go to Israel to work, because they just want to earn a good living for their family and it is clear, in Israel, that they can get along and their is no reason a Palestinian state could be like that but they have to be willing and put the effort into getting rid of the terrorist who only want to destroy Israel.Sorry if I took us off topic (did I???), but it is late and I’m tired.
Oh, I’ll end on this quote I heard, I forget who said it but I like it.
“We haven’t found Saddam yet, does that mean he didn’t exist?”
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Deviant, where are the checks and balances? You believe in the American Government system, as I do, but possibly the most important part you insist on excluding on the international stage.
Simply enough, we’re going to get into a lot of long term trouble if we go around and “disarm” half the world. Weapons of Mass Destruction are not illegal, although in Iraq they were.
The right to develope weapons is not a privelage, its a right. Its called being a sovereign nation. Just because we have more guns doesn’t mean we should be going around denying countries their rights.
To follow up . . .
Call me Iraq. Now until i was 18 (give or take) my privileges were assigned to me by my parents and by my teachers etc. Now my privileges at the hospital are assigned me by the hospital and the university.
My question is what did America do for the authority of granting and removing privileges? My parents may not authorize your curfew, nor are you answerable to them. Of course my parents came by this authority honestly having given birth to me and being in a reasonable position to have my best interests at heart.
The US on the other hand has very little that i can see in the way of having any reasonable authority to act in granting or removing these so-called privileges. Unless you look on the school yard around the swings area where the biggest boy can determine who has the privilege of being on the swing and who has to go play elsewhere. They have this authority as the unwritten rule of the schoolyard. Why? Because he’s bigger.
You talk about having trust in the US as its ally. That becomes increasingly difficult to do when your ally lies to you (i.e. “here’s proof of WMD . . . Whoops - i guess not”) and when they do something that is illegal that breaches your own moral code.
Until the weapons are found, in my mind they do not exist. When they are found, then it will have been a retrospective “save” for the US on the international stage, but it will not have justified its invasion as they would have been a spurious finding at that point. -
Deviant, where are the checks and balances? You believe in the American Government system, as I do, but possibly the most important part you insist on excluding on the international stage.
Simply enough, we’re going to get into a lot of long term trouble if we go around and “disarm” half the world. Weapons of Mass Destruction are not illegal, although in Iraq they were.
The right to develope weapons is not a privelage, its a right. Its called being a sovereign nation. Just because we have more guns doesn’t mean we should be going around denying countries their rights.
Simply enough, Iraq lost their right to possess the worst types of weapons when they started going around and enciting wars and wreaking mass havoc on neighboring countries. We didn’t try to mandate Iraq’s ability to defend itself, nor did we try to completely disarm them–even after they invaded Kuwait. They were allowed to have conventional weapons, but under no circumstances were they allowed to have biological, chemical, or even nuclear. In fact, they weren’t even allowed to research the weapons.
Now if I understand you correct (and I hope I do), you’re arguing that Iraq is a soveirgn nation and is therefore allowed (by right of being such a nation) to possess said weapons. And you see no danger in this? I guess the part I disagree upon is where it comes to history repeating itself. I’d rather not get to the point of having one more madman in this world (can anyone say “kim jong-il”) who possesses weapons that can annihaliate millions instantly.
Right now, Terrorism is not a big deal. Cigarettes, Beer and Drugs each kill many times more people per year than terrorism has killed in modern history. If we continue going around the world creating more terrorism, we might become Israel.
Best thing we can do? Tell Israel “You have one month to stop inciting violence and ignore Hamas, or no more 4 billion dollars in weapons per year”
Beer, cigrettes, and drugs are all voluntary poisens that you insert into your body. Nobody asks to be burned alive at 3,000 degrees on the 75th floor of a skyscraper. Creating terrorism you say? Seems to me like it’s already there…. :roll:
Best thing we can do? Tell Israel “You have one month to stop inciting violence and ignore Hamas, or no more 4 billion dollars in weapons per year”
Ignore Hamas? LOL :P
You seriously think that if you just ignore them, that they’re going to stop? Just like that? Magically just lay down their arms and hold hands with the Israelis? Somebody please slap me so I can get back to reality… :-?
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Deviant,
Bombing Hamas into submission hasn’t worked. Its just made the process much worse. What I’m saying is continue on with the peace process despite Hamas trying to undermine it.
Weapons of Mass Destruction are simply psychological weapons. In truth, its a lot easier to aquire a crate of C-4 and blow it up near a busy intersection than release a little bit of Anthrax through the mail, and more people will die by the C-4.
Giving in to the psychological warfare is exactly how we’re going to lose this war. Terrorism is not a major cause of death, but it could be.
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@El:
F_alk,
Are you saying that because it doesn’t say…
"Para. 5…Recognizing the threat Iraq’s noncompliance with Council resolutions and
IRAQ’S proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,
…
They are talking about two different things?Exactly.
Look at GWB talking about Iraq and 9/11. He managed to make it look like they had some common ground. Very much like the above. It can easily be understood the way that Iraq is in both parts of the sentence above, but it doesn’t say so.@D:S:
The US doesn’t simply “hope it’s right” while at the same time sending 500,000 troops into war.
You still believe it was about WMDs? You must be one of the last ones to believe that, D:S. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz both said that this reason was not the main reason for them, just for the PR work they had to do. And both had this war on their agenda since 1991 (read “Rebuilding Americas Defenses” etc.). Wether 1441 authorized you is a question for lawyers. And porbably, you should take a look at that “B” option yourself.
They are privelages. Privelages need to be earned. Countries like Iraq and North Korea have already had their opportunity to possess WMD’s legitimately.
When? How can you legitimately possess WMDs, except for nuclear ones if you are one of those exceptions in the proliferation-ban-treaty? Even Israel is not legitimate to possess nuclear weapons……
And for Hamas, they offered a ceasefire yesterday. Of course, they had some contitions on Israel to be fulfilled, but doesn’t Israel work the same way with ceasefires only on contidions? I hope that this becomes one of the first steps to peace there.
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Best thing we can do? Tell Israel “You have one month to stop inciting violence and ignore Hamas, or no more 4 billion dollars in weapons per year”
Wow, that one even took me by surprise. My question would at what point can Israel go after Hamas?
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When? How can you legitimately possess WMDs, except for nuclear ones if you are one of those exceptions in the proliferation-ban-treaty? Even Israel is not legitimate to possess nuclear weapons…
When have they had their opportunity or when did they blow their opportunity?
And for Hamas, they offered a ceasefire yesterday. Of course, they had some contitions on Israel to be fulfilled, but doesn’t Israel work the same way with ceasefires only on contidions? I hope that this becomes one of the first steps to peace there.
Wow F_alk, only your blissful ignorance could mustle up enough bullshit to put the words Hamas and peace in the same sentence. Do you really not want to look at the facts? Hamas has already declared and vowed themselves to disrupting any attempt at a peace process, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE PALESTENIANS GET! HELLO?!?! :o YOU STILL WANT TO NEGOTIATE WITH THESE PEOPLE?!?! :o :o GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND!!! :o :o :o
…okay, time to settle down D:S… :wink:
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Yeah, gotta’ pseudo agree with D:S on the whole Hamas-earthquake thing. Really - those guys are pretty much evil.
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Didnt hamas release a press statement on like Friday saying something along the lines of we dont care what the prime minister agrees to, we got Jews to kill…
I am gonna dig about on the internet and see if I can find something about it.
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Ok, couldn’t find the article I was talking about but I am pretty sure I didn’t imagine it. Here is what i did find though.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=414963
blow up the Zionist entity and tear it to pieces"
"launch a series of new attacks against the Israeli people by the youths of Palestine. This crime will not pass without punishment.‘’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2983426.stm
“the first in a new series of operations… targeting every Zionist usurping our land”.
turn the Zionist entity’s state into rubble
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