Wow, I think I hit a nerve. You seem like you need some sleep Moses.
Moses, I understand that for example the legal drinking age does not stop minor use of alchohol. But I believe that it lowers it. Look at illegal drugs. Rich whites use more drugs than poor minorities. Why? Because it is easier to get them. Age restrictions add a layer of difficulty, decreasing the amount of ounces of alchohol consumed each day by minors.
I’m sorry about yelling at you. My anger is not at you, it is at the the pimps of the prostitutes on the show I watched, at the 3 boys you desacribed, at NAMBLA.
Ahh, YB, it always seems i’m disagreeing with you, except about communisum.
I drank way more alcohol before I was 18( the legal drinking age in my home province) than I ever did after.
Suddenly when it was legal for me to drink, it wasn’t as “cool” to be doing it.
The novelty had worn off.
When you can’t do or have something the more you want it.
There is a psychological term for that, but I cant think of it right now :oops:
@Mr:
Wow, I think I hit a nerve. You seem like you need some sleep Moses.
Moses, I understand that for example the legal drinking age does not stop minor use of alchohol. But I believe that it lowers it. Look at illegal drugs. Rich whites use more drugs than poor minorities. Why? Because it is easier to get them. Age restrictions add a layer of difficulty, decreasing the amount of ounces of alchohol consumed each day by minors.
I’m sorry about yelling at you. My anger is not at you, it is at the the pimps of the prostitutes on the show I watched, at the 3 boys you desacribed, at NAMBLA.
Ahh, YB, it always seems i’m disagreeing with you, except about communisum.
I drank way more alcohol before I was 18( the legal drinking age in my home province) than I ever did after.
Suddenly when it was legal for me to drink, it wasn’t as “cool” to be doing it.
The novelty had worn off.When you can’t do or have something the more you want it.
There is a psychological term for that, but I cant think of it right now :oops:
yeah, i had a much greater desire to be a prostitute when i was 15 and 16 then i do now. after a while, these kids grow up :)
“Wow, I think I hit a nerve.”
Yes, I don’t liked being branded with such discriminating and fraudulent names as “sick, mentally ill, or Fucking screwd up.” :o
“Moses, I understand that for example the legal drinking age does not stop minor use of alchohol. But I believe that it lowers it. Look at illegal drugs. Rich whites use more drugs than poor minorities. Why? Because it is easier to get them. Age restrictions add a layer of difficulty, decreasing the amount of ounces of alchohol consumed each day by minors.”
Refer to Horten’s graph on the increase of alcohol consumption from Prohibition when looking into this. Furthermore, I don’t think those graphs cover home distilleries, wine bricks, or other such methods of obtaining alcohol (many alcoholics would actually go so far as to drink the antifreeze from their car!). This would raise the “bar” even higher. Additionally, when looking at those who turn away from alcohol due to legal requirements, you most look at those who indulge in alcohol because of the very fact that it is illicit (people coveting what they cannot have). I would definitely fit in the latter category. As Mr Ghoul put it, “Suddenly when it was legal for me to drink, it wasn’t as “cool” to be doing it. The novelty had worn off.”
In the case of drugs being legalized, it would be much easier and cheaper to obtain drugs, unlike “junkies” who have to often have to result to personal debt and criminal activity to fulfill their needs. For example, the price of 1 ounce of pure opium in India can cost as low as 12 cents, while in American, that very gram it can reach 2 grand. Without a restriction on drugs, people would be able to obtain purer drugs instead of buying heavily cut drugs that often lead to overdose.
“yeah, i had a much greater desire to be a prostitute when i was 15 and 16 then i do now. after a while, these kids grow up”
I don’t know about you CC, but my desire to become a prostitute has grown even stronger! (j/k)
:wink:
Moses, Ghoul, while I agree that there is the lure of the forbidden, I don’t know that your story is neccessarily the same with everyone. Overrall, the easier it is to get Beer, the more people will drink. That is why drinking fell during prohibition. Not that limits actually stop people, but they do slow them down.
CC, what do you mean you “had” a desire becoem a prostitue. We all know that medical school was your second choice after HOE-vard.
At least Moses is being honest about it. :)
@TG:
The komet looked a bit too cramped if you ask me. When I first saw it in person, I was like, “Hey, where’s the rest of it?” Also, the problem with the Komet (besides the frequent explosions) was that its landing made it very difficult to avoid Allied ftrs. And how long was the powered flight? :wink:
wow! i envy you! I saw a v2 rocket, v1, mig 15, Me262, a bunch of planes in Arizona, but you saw a Me163!
Now we gotta break in and see the Gotha 229.
@cystic:
@TG:
No harm in asking, but how old were these “child” prostitutes? I find it disturbing grown men have to indulge themselves on little kids. That’s just wrong no matter how you look at it.
wow Moses, you’re even more naive than i am. There’s (grotesquely enough) a huge market for these girls (even younger than 10!!!).
lots of efforts are going on to clamp down on import of these girls from S.E. Asia right now . . . plus you have other girls (usually native in Canada) as well.
the younger they are, the less of a chance they have STDs. that’s why some people want the child sex.
@Horten:
wow! i envy you! I saw a v2 rocket, v1, mig 15, Me262, a bunch of planes in Arizona, but you saw a Me163!
Well here in California, there’s lot of air force bases, which means lots and lots of air shows. But I sae the Me 163 when I was quite young (maybe 12-13). At the time, I was much more into modern military planes like the F-15s and F-14s. What little World War II -type stuff I did check out was mostly American (well duh) planes like the B-17s, Wildcats, and P-51s (drool) But that ugly Me-163 did catch my eye! At first I thought it was some rocket ship straight out of some the 1950’s science fiction show. But when I came closer, it actually served in WWII! I thought this plane dominated the war. It had a large cannon, powered with rocket fuel, and was so small, probably no other Allied plane could hit it. It was about that time one of the guys told me how much it sucked… and vola, here we are today taking about it! :P
@Horten:
the younger they are, the less of a chance they have STDs. that’s why some people want the child sex
Yet another reason we need to legalize prostitution, more effective screening and safety procedures so sadist won’t dare prey on child/underaged prostitutes.
I fully agree.
@TG:
@Horten:
the younger they are, the less of a chance they have STDs. that’s why some people want the child sex
Yet another reason we need to legalize prostitution, more effective screening and safety procedures so sadist won’t dare prey on child/underaged prostitutes.
far be it for me to be using the slippery-slope fallacious argument, however if you legalize prostitution, how far are we from full-out legitimizing it? And you honestly believe that children will not fall through the cracks in this scenario? I think there is an even greater chance of children being used as prostitutes in a society where prostitution is normalized. Never mind my above-stated problems with prostitution in the first place.
No, we have to attack the root of the problem - eliminate prostitution through better social planning, rather than some band-aid plan that is just going to suck more women into this hideous life (well - maybe some of them enjoy getting paid for sex, but i mean the other ones - the ones that teach at the “john schools”).
@cc:
far be it for me to be using the slippery-slope fallacious argument, however if you legalize prostitution, how far are we from full-out legitimizing it? And you honestly believe that children will not fall through the cracks in this scenario? I think there is an even greater chance of children being used as prostitutes in a society where prostitution is normalized. Never mind my above-stated problems with prostitution in the first place.
No, we have to attack the root of the problem - eliminate prostitution through better social planning, rather than some band-aid plan that is just going to suck more women into this hideous life (well - maybe some of them enjoy getting paid for sex, but i mean the other ones - the ones that teach at the “john schools”).
Of course the legalization of underaged prostitution shouldn’t be allowed. However, for those 18 (maybe even 21) should have the right to choose if they want this pathetic life. Children will still fall through the cracks, though that number will be lessen (less demand) due to safety codes and regulation concerning STD’s, AIDs, and pregnancy. Also, I don’t think children will be as involved, as prostitution should be treated as any other business, requiring certified tanning and licensing. Those who run the risk of unlegitimized prostitution face non-effective screening. Additionally, stricter laws should be passed with serve punishments for managers caught employing such underaged/child prostitutes.
What do you expect to do with social planning? At what scale? Even if prostitution is legalized, we should still teach the consequences and moral sin of it (as in the case of abortion). Remember, legalization does not mean approval!
@TG:
@cc:
far be it for me to be using the slippery-slope fallacious argument, however if you legalize prostitution, how far are we from full-out legitimizing it? And you honestly believe that children will not fall through the cracks in this scenario? I think there is an even greater chance of children being used as prostitutes in a society where prostitution is normalized. Never mind my above-stated problems with prostitution in the first place.
No, we have to attack the root of the problem - eliminate prostitution through better social planning, rather than some band-aid plan that is just going to suck more women into this hideous life (well - maybe some of them enjoy getting paid for sex, but i mean the other ones - the ones that teach at the “john schools”).Of course the legalization of underaged prostitution shouldn’t be allowed. However, for those 18 (maybe even 21) should have the right to choose if they want this pathetic life. Children will still fall through the cracks, though that number will be lessen (less demand) due to safety codes and regulation concerning STD’s, AIDs, and pregnancy. Also, I don’t think children will be as involved, as prostitution should be treated as any other business, requiring certified tanning and licensing. Those who run the risk of unlegitimized prostitution face non-effective screening. Additionally, stricter laws should be passed with serve punishments for managers caught employing such underaged/child prostitutes.
What do you expect to do with social planning? At what scale? Even if prostitution is legalized, we should still teach the consequences and moral sin of it (as in the case of abortion). Remember, legalization does not mean approval!
I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. In a nice happy world where prostitution does not occur, legalization would, indeed, not mean approval. In the real world, the point is moot. “hey, it’s legal, so that means it is alright for me to do it”. Once something is legal, then you always have a number of people who will defend it do the death, and they will push the boundaries of it. You will have an ineffectual judge who eventually will acquit a pimp of using a very precocious 17 y/o (or 16 y/o), thereby setting a form of precedent. Of course, i am naive enough to think that improvements in the social consciousness of communitties might indeed have a long term effect on prostitution and abortion, provided that it was appropriately directed.
Also - moral teaching will not go that far. People know it’s wrong to visit prostitutes. Just suggest to them that they should tell their wives they are doing it.
Finally, my arguments vs. prostitution are largely a cover-up for the queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach that i get when something so obviously wrong is tolerated by society. I have to admit - that part of me governs much more to an extent what i do and feel is right than any part of my brain (which provides the language to justify what i feel).
@CC:
I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. In a nice happy world where prostitution does not occur, legalization would, indeed, not mean approval. In the real world, the point is moot. “hey, it’s legal, so that means it is alright for me to do it”. Once something is legal, then you always have a number of people who will defend it do the death, and they will push the boundaries of it. You will have an ineffectual judge who eventually will acquit a pimp of using a very precocious 17 y/o (or 16 y/o), thereby setting a form of precedent.
Ahhh, But you are forgetting, in a perfect world prostitution would not exist in the first place. “Hey, it’s legal, so that means it is alright for me to do it.” Interesting take on this. But, “Hey, I’m 18. I can do anything with my life,” is also a valid assumption (or the “Hand off my Ovaries” case many feminist like to use against abortion). When something is legal, you do have people trying to push the boundaries of it. Of course, these are extremist, and usually they represent a tiny fraction of the majority. You will have ineffective judges (that is a given), however this does not set a precedent. Precedent comes from the Supreme Court (or the State Supreme Federal Courts to a lesser degree), where many judges preside. This usually means that the “ineffective judge” (and there might be one or two) will be overruled.
@CC:
Of course, i am naive enough to think that improvements in the social consciousness of communitties might indeed have a long term effect on prostitution and abortion, provided that it was appropriately directed.
Also - moral teaching will not go that far. People know it’s wrong to visit prostitutes. Just suggest to them that they should tell their wives they are doing it.
Finally, my arguments vs. prostitution are largely a cover-up for the queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach that i get when something so obviously wrong is tolerated by society. I have to admit - that part of me governs much more to an extent what i do and feel is right than any part of my brain (which provides the language to justify what i feel).
Well CC, you admitted it yourself, we all know prostitution is wrong, and even if we did legalize prostitution, we would still know its wrong. But prostitution will still happen given either scenario. Same goes with cigarettes, which is why you see such heavy taxes and anti-smoking campaigns on them. Social guiding in schools (and in churches) will help those unsure whether they want to commit to such a degrading occupation, but how often does the message have to be given before it becomes completely ineffective? A good example would be the Pledge of Alliance (or whatever you Canucks call it :P ). Now I’m content with saying it once a week (reflecting on how much my country has given me), but when you start saying it every day, it does start to lose meaning to it. I agree with your feelings, but just turning a blind eye to what is happening is not the answer (something I have to admit the Conservative party is at fault here). Something has to be done. It may not be to legalize prostitution. It could be something radically different. But something has to be done. Remember (and I will quote myself on this one :wink: ), “Never let your emotions get the better of you.”
ahhhh . . . but i’m not turning a blind eye to things. quite the opposite. I am opening my eyes to the possibilities that social change might bring. I have an inkling as to the realities of the world, but just as communism has never worked properly, some contend that under the right circumstances it might. I believe that if we direct our sight at the underlying problems contributing to prostitution (drugs, poverty, abuse, pimpin’, johns) then the only prostitutes left would be the ones “giving it away”.
Also a federal Quebec judge can establish a precident on a case that a British Columbia lower court judge would have to adhere to (or risk the case later being overturned). My source on this is a Queen’s bench judge (second highest court to the appeals court).
“I am opening my eyes to the possibilities that social change might bring. I have an inkling as to the realities of the world, but just as communism has never worked properly, some contend that under the right circumstances it might.”
However, you haven’t exactly given me any clear guidelines onto what “social planning” is. At least with communism, there is a clear “plan” on what to do given the situation (except for consequences foreseeable only in the future). Also the possibilities of social change are there, but to what extent? But I’ll help you out. When my “Evil” Conservative side was still with me, I proposed the “Three Hits Law” (“Three Strikes Law” being taken already :P) where the punishments for engaging in prostitution were so severe, it would cause anybody rethink what they’re doing.
“Also a federal Quebec judge can establish a precident on a case that a British Columbia lower court judge would have to adhere to (or risk the case later being overturned). My source on this is a Queen’s bench judge (second highest court to the appeals court).”
Well you Canadians are interesting types. Usually, LA (or CA for that matter) never adhere’s to any decision by another State Federal Court (lower circuit?), unless it’s a supreme court decision. I such “important” cases such as underaged/child prostitution, the judge (or jury depending on the situation) will declare a miscarriage, appeal the decision, or overturn it (most likely).
I think that Sir Cystic Crypt was on to something when he mentioned ‘social planning’. In order to rid ourselves of prostitution, we must fight prostitution at its roots, in the ghettos and in the schools, instead of wasting precious effort and time to combat its symptons. Rarely does any person I know desire to become a prostitution because of free will but because there is nowhere else to turn. I think it should be our obligation to find some way to provide better opportunities, education, and counseling to those less fortunate then us :(
@TM:
Rarely does any person I know desire to become a prostitution because of free will but because there is nowhere else to turn.
That’s still free-will.
I’m on the same page as Moses’ sister, what we need is (and the same goes with drug addicts) special programs to bring prostitutes first out of prostitution and then out of the conditions which led them to it. Programs which treat prostitutes as the victims and not the crimminals have high success rates. Also, getting pimps out of the picture helps, most prostitutes do not return to prostitution if their pimp is taken out of the picture.
TM Moses VII wrote:
Rarely does any person I know desire to become a prostitution because of free will but because there is nowhere else to turn.“That’s still free-will.”
Tell me, if I pointed a gun to your head and I told you had the option of becomming my slave or dying, would this be free-will? If I forced you to sign a treaty under duress, would this be free-will? Similarly, if you were on the verge of straving (without any shelter or clothes) and the only option was prostitution, what would you choose?
U bet cus u still have the choice. u can either die, which is a fair option and ends ur misery or u can become someones slave for a good 10 years. u still have a choice and thats freewill
Yep, Ewok is correct. You may not like the situation, and it may not be fair. But you ALWAYS have a choice.
