Not always, there have been times of the Allies winning even with the Moscow taken.
True, but the Axis have also won with Russia taken.
Yes it’s more of the double edged sword. Granted, Moscow has to be taken in order to win the game (A EC victory is possible, though very hard the achieve with veteran Allied players). But it serves no use for Japan if they collapse right when Russia has fallen. This is why a constant supply of inf into the Japanese inf to the mainland is needed. I don’t want to take Russia and suddenly find myself cut off as my flanks arehit had from a UK buildup in India. Taking Russia does no good if you aren’t also in a position to take Africa and Asia Minor when this happens.
That’s why you take India on T1.
As the Axis, I ussually try to hit the U.S.S.R. as hard as I possibl can, because once they go under the game is over. In the first four turns, the Axis can take Karelia, Soviet Far East, Yakut, Novosbirsk, Event Nat’l Orkug, and Kazakstan, while suppressing Allied navies enough to prevent a major counter-attack. With that much pressure on Moscow, Russia doesn’t last long.
As long as you have Allied support in Eastern Europe, not the country, the theater, I can make Russia hang on for along while in Asia.
After Russian first turn, I have 6 infantry and 1 armor in Event Nat’l orkug.
And I sometimes stack the typical Karelia stack in the Caucuses with just one Infantry left in karelia.
This helps the overly aggressive German player from pounding you on a all out attack early.
If you want Karelia that bad, take it. :wink:
You could also attack Hawiian Islands SZ w/ NO big ships using 1 SUB from Solomons, up to 3 FTRs, or any combination of 1-3 FTRs and a BMR, depending on your other plans (the attack starts to get pretty risky below 1 SUB, and 3 planes). The planes have to come from Japan HI, Manchuria and the CV, but 3 FTRs are possible 'cuz the FTR from the CV can land on a nearby island. After the attack, your CV can move to the Solomons, out of reach of USA planes, and may land surviving planes; or if there’s only 1, since your last FTR will be the one w/ 2 moves remaining, fly it back or land it on an island freeing the CV to move wherever you wish.
Now, this attack will lose most likely lose you at least 1 FTR, quite possibly 2. In its 1 SUB, 3 plane mode, it leaves only 2 planes available in Asia for operations–again basically limiting you to 1 major strike on the mainland (I still recommend China–but if the UK TRs not there, India becomes the better choice). But in this case, you can get WAY more units on Asia T1 for attacks T2 and still destroy the Hawaiian Islands fleet w/ little or no risk to your own fleet from US counterattacks. If you haven’t already, T2 you could hit India w/ an amphibious attack featuring 2 BBs (screeeeeeeeeeeBOOOOOMM!!! :o )! That’s always fun…
Just an idea for a way to compromise between the “No-Hawaii” and “Pro-Hawaii” camps. Sorry Lilo…
Ozone27
I am only an average Axis player :(, but what I was taught was that Japan’s air force is the most important unit in the game. Without it, Imperial Japan has no way to supplement its offensive drive west of Asia and into the Russian borders. So, sincerely, I warn against any attack by Japan that involves risking the loss of one or more planes. There is over a fifty percent chance Japan will lose at least one plane and a twenty five percent chance they will lose two. Sir Ozone wrote this leaves only two aircraft left for in Asia, simply not enough if I plan on taking the Soviet Far East, China, and India on the first turn.
Teah, Japan’s ftrs are vital to the game. Just losing 1 or 2 may be enough to throw you off course.
Ok how about this :D ; you send 1 SUB, 3 FTRs, 1 BMR to attack Hawaiian Islands SZ and NO PLACE ELSE! You take no territories 1st turn and make no extra money. But you will then probably only lose 1 FTR, land the remaining 2 on the CV which sails to Central Pacific. Land 4 INF on Manchuria, build 1 TR, 3 INF save 8 IPCs (since you don’t need a fourth TR this turn–if you want it, buy it.).
T2 you hit Yakut w/ 7 INF, 3 FTR and a BMR, hit SFE w/ 2 INF 1 FTR and 2 BBs–or any combination thereof depending on the Russkies 1st move. Now at the end of T2 you are in Yakut w/ ~ 5 INF w/ more on the way–on T3 you are poised to just RAPE Russia.
Also if India looks threatening you can beef Burma up w/ extra INF T1, rolling them down the Kwangtung Conveyor.
Basically this odd 1st move looks like you are foregoing a strong opening move in favor of building up a massive strike T2. You could go in a number of different directions T2, but your main object is Russia. This would accomplish the object of hurting USSR severely by T3, but leaves India pretty open to being built up by the Allies as a base.
This is a pretty wierd opener! I’ll have to keep tweaking it to see if anything cool can happen…
Ozone27
:lol:
Ok how about this :D ; you send 1 SUB, 3 FTRs, 1 BMR to attack Hawaiian Islands SZ and NO PLACE ELSE! You take no territories 1st turn and make no extra money. But you will then probably only lose 1 FTR, land the remaining 2 on the CV which sails to Central Pacific. Land 4 INF on Manchuria, build 1 TR, 3 INF save 8 IPCs (since you don’t need a fourth TR this turn–if you want it, buy it.).
T2 you hit Yakut w/ 7 INF, 3 FTR and a BMR, hit SFE w/ 2 INF 1 FTR and 2 BBs–or any combination thereof depending on the Russkies 1st move. Now at the end of T2 you are in Yakut w/ ~ 5 INF w/ more on the way–on T3 you are poised to just RAPE Russia.
Also if India looks threatening you can beef Burma up w/ extra INF T1, rolling them down the Kwangtung Conveyor.
Basically this odd 1st move looks like you are foregoing a strong opening move in favor of building up a massive strike T2. You could go in a number of different directions T2, but your main object is Russia. This would accomplish the object of hurting USSR severely by T3, but leaves India pretty open to being built up by the Allies as a base.
This is a pretty wierd opener! I’ll have to keep tweaking it to see if anything cool can happen…
Ozone27
Whoa, no territories taken! This is the most radical departure from strategy since Japan moving its navy into the Atlantic by taking Brazil! However, when testing a new strategy, you must ask always yourself if it can at least hold ground with professional strategies. The major problem I see here is the lack of income that Japan receives T1 and T2. By T2, I at least expect Japan’s income in the mid-30s. (Usually 30 and 35 respectively for 65 IPCs). Under your strat I would only be making 26 and 30 for 56. This is a 9 IPC difference, pretty major. However, you might lose less inf (and therefore, IPCs) in the end by using combined operations on T2. Well, at least, good job for trying! :wink:
Most of the games I play, the UK vacates India to hit Egypt and knock Germany out of Africa or to reinforce Syria for attack on the German navy on UK2. Sometimes they vacate to South Africa. Of course ocassionally they will build a factory in India, or rarely hit Kwang - but other than that India is ripe for the taking.
I can’t remember ever seeing a UK player just leave his stuff in India without reinforcing it and building a factory. If he did, I would definitely hit both India and China, leaving the Far East for later.
Most of the games I play, the UK vacates India to hit Egypt and knock Germany out of Africa or to reinforce Syria for attack on the German navy on UK2. Sometimes they vacate to South Africa. Of course ocassionally they will build a factory in India, or rarely hit Kwang - but other than that India is ripe for the taking.
I can’t remember ever seeing a UK player just leave his stuff in India without reinforcing it and building a factory. If he did, I would definitely hit both India and China, leaving the Far East for later.
Finally, someone who has experienced what I have and likes to take India and not Hawaii! How about we form our very own “We Do Not Take Hawaii On T1” Fan Club? :wink:
Ok so maybe when you’re the 2nd most powerful/2nd poorest country on the board, siezing NO territory on T1 isn’t such a great idea. Here’s my latest modification to the developing “Hawaii compromise” :) :
So T1 you buy 1 ARM, 1 TR, 1 FTR. You move 3 INF 1 FTR from Manchuria to China, plus 1 FTR from F I/C Burma. What you do w/ the WangChung guys depends on what UK did–if India was evac’d, throw both of them into China; or use just 2 INF from Manchuria, both from Kwantung. If India was beefed up, use 1 INF from Kwantung in China and move the other to F I/C Burma on NonCom. Or whatever. You should attack in China w/ 4 INF, 2 FTR.
In Hawaii, attack w/ 1 SUB, 2 FTRs, 1 BMR. You may lose 1 or 2 FTRs. Regardless land the Philippines FTRand whatever else is left on the CV(which has moved to Central Pacific). If the USA were able to withdraw their SUB, you might wanna add a BB or 2 there for further protection.
On NonCom, have TR in the Philippines p/u 1 INF from Philippines 1 from Okinawa and land them on Manchuria. TR from Japan moves to Wake Island, p/u 1 INF there, move back to Japan, load another INF and land them both on Manchuria. FTRs in China should split between F I/C Burma and Manchuria, depending on the relative strengths of India and USSR. Place all units on Japan.
Now lets assume UK is quiescent in India, and USSR have 5 INF Yakut, 1 INF SFE. Now T2 you strike the coast of SFE w/ 2 ARM, 2 BBs. You hit Yakut w/ 4-5 INF, 4-5 FTR, 1 BMR–as you can see: overwhelming force! Assuming the Soviet Yakut force hits twice (and the BBs conquered in SFE T1), on T3 you can get 2-3 INF, 2 ARM into Novosibirsk no problem, with a lot more on the way. Each turn spend 17 IPCs on 4 INF, 1 ARM to land on Asia and use the rest for whatever else you want.
This offer is subject to change without notice. Cancel anytime.
Ozone27
I like it! :)
It seems like nowadays, I am the only one to try out new and interesting battle plans. I hope you succeed at what you’re trying to accomplish. I hope you succeed at what your new approach. But if India is quiescent, how come you just don’t take it on the first turn? I once tried a similar method of splitting my forces between Asia and Hawaii at the same time, although I used my naval ships to attack the island and sent all my planes to hit the Allies in continental Asia.
Your second draft of the “Hawaii Compromise” does look much better than before. But what options are there if the Allies mount still resistance in SE Asia?
@TG:
Your second draft of the “Hawaii Compromise” does look much better than before. But what options are there if the Allies mount still resistance in SE Asia?
:D Simple: there aren’t any! :D
If you may indulge me a bit, I will delve into some A & A theory to justify my actions:
OK, so (rereading my plan) “Hawaii Compromise v3.0” isn’t something one would probably wanna use if the Allies built up India. Basically, the Axis have to look at a couple of things the Allies did T1 to get a clue to their intentions (good intelligence is a must in war, of course 8) ). One is; what did UK do in India? If they brought in an INF or 2 (or obviously if they added an IC), they probably are not intending to mount a “Germany 1st” strategy. In that case, this opener would be a bad move, because the Allies are obviously planning a strong defense in Asia and if you leave an opening (i.e. in F I/C Burma), they will then try to go on the offensive, possibly wreaking havoc.
However, most of this thread has been focused on what apparently is a “Germany 1st” opener by USSR/UK. USSR turtles w/ the INF in the East, while UK either evacuates or abandons her Indian forces in Asia, concentrating on Africa. This tells a decent Japan player 2 things:
1.) The pressure on him/her will be light.
2.) The Western Allies want to invade Western Europe by T3/4.
In this case this opener would be good because it forces USSR on the defensive in a major way by the end of T2–not to mention crushing the US fleet in the Pacific before it can (presumably) be withdrawn to the Atlantic. The Allies have basically abandoned East Asia to Japan by not heavily defending India, so why take the bait? The Allies’ theory is to crush Germany while you are rolling through Asia–in a perfect “Germany 1st” strategy, Japan is just reaching the outskirts of Soviet territory while Western Europe is being invaded by USA/UK. But as everyone knows, a decent Germany player can hold Western Europe (and fight USSR) for at least 3 turns, so T3 is the magic number.
Would I use this theoretical opener in a real game? Sure, but only if the circumstances were just right. As TG points out, it is pretty inflexible regarding India/China and is not a money-maker. I dunno…
I’ll keep working on it… :lol:
Ozone27
AAhhhhh… I see now. This strategy might be a good “trick” from the Magician’s Hat on the unsuspecting Allies. :wink:
Now I see where you ARM purchase fits it. On, I probably forgot already, but where is the Imperial Navy during all of this?
OK, so (rereading my plan) “Hawaii Compromise v3.0” isn’t something one would probably wanna use if the Allies built up India. Basically, the Axis have to look at a couple of things the Allies did T1 to get a clue to their intentions (good intelligence is a must in war, of course 8) ). One is; what did UK do in India? If they brought in an INF or 2 (or obviously if they added an IC), they probably are not intending to mount a “Germany 1st” strategy. In that case, this opener would be a bad move, because the Allies are obviously planning a strong defense in Asia and if you leave an opening (i.e. in F I/C Burma), they will then try to go on the offensive, possibly wreaking havoc.
Ozone27
This is still a GF strategy! It’s just a GFwGBDJ variation. That’s Germany First with Great Britain Delaying Japan. TRY AGAIN.
Uh no offense, but wasn’t Ozone’s strat a way for the Axis to couteract the “Get Germany First” strategy that the Allies throw at you? Also, I consider Ozone’s strategy very different with previous theory. Xi, you have to read all of it before you can grasp what Ozone is trying to do (AKA the “Hawaii Compromise”)
