yea that’s not surprising seeing how they were the last colony to join the revolution .
At least they picked the winning team : )
Seperation of Church and State
-
So what your saying is America should be a Christian State, with Christian laws, but your aloud to practice any Religion as long as it goes along with Christian laws?
Absolutely not, I do not believe that America should be a Christian state, but I do believe America needs to retain the values that it was founded on.
As for the scandal in the church, that’s an entirely different subject. I think those priests (aka: molesters) should be punished just like anyone else in society, and that’s what’ll happen. The church can do whatever it wants on it’s side, but the plain and simple fact still remains: they are a danger to society. Anyways, this is for another thread….so i’ll leave it at that.
-
Well Yanny, i think that it might be thought of another way. Allowing Christians more freedom of speach, for example. Leveling the playing field in more respects. For example, “free speach” against the church in many instances would be considered a “hate crime” against another religion or culture (the two are often entwined), or at the least “not very p.c.”. Yet the Christian church must endure it for some reason (i.e. it is secured for by the first amendment).
Now true, the make up of America is different today then it was when originally a haven of refuge sought by religious persecutants, but i have a problem identifying what is wrong with maintaining its religious traditions, history, or even allowing the majority its voice. Does it suggest the persecution of other beliefs and cultures? Or the diminishment or ignore-ance of other faiths?
Of course, as a Canadian, i am afraid that my knowledge of America is limited to what i learned in school, the news, here, and Hollywood, so please forgive me for sticking my nose where it might not belong. -
Cystic Crypt…Nice Post. :wink:
-
“sometimes your guest is me, the Crypt.”
Ha, I knew that religious banther had to come from somewhere :wink:
BTW, I enjoyed reading your previous post, it was very true to life. (Poor Christians… :cry: )“The majority does rule in America, but within certain limits.”
I agree. That’s why we are endowed with certain “inalienable rights” that cannot be taken away. However, you’ll be hard pressed to find “separation of church and state” in the Constitution as opposed to Freedom of Speech. But just as a question, if this ruling does stick, what happens now? What if in disgust, I now recite the Pledge every single day? (as opposed to probably only once a week) What is my punishment for not adhering to the code and expressing my own freedom of expression? What “inalienable right” are the authorities now taking away?
“While most Americans are christians, it is not a christian nation and should not be veiwed as one.”
In the eyes of the world, it probably is viewed as one (well maybe in the eyes of FinsterniS [j/k] :wink:). And I’m not seeing how removing the words “under God” insure 100% that this is a Christian God we’re talking about. How do we know it’s not Zeus? Or Vishnu? Or Bokonon? I think we ourselves are responsible for making the biggest assumption of all.
But for a different (though related) subject matter, the Courts ruled in favor of vouchers used to attend private schools. What do you guys think of this? Personally, I’m pro-vouchers, though if can convince me otherwise, I will change my position. :wink: Many people believe that it is sending kids to attend Religious schools (which most private schools happen to be). However, the money is given for the student who has the Freedom to decide what school to attend. This is not money given to the religious school itself.
-
“While most Americans are christians, it is not a christian nation and should not be veiwed as one.”
Maybe not a “christian nation”, but at least a very religious nation with a very judeo-christian sence of moral.
UNITED STATES
- 265.300.000 inhab.
- Usual statistics: 22-26% Catholic, 16% Baptist, 6% Methodist, 4% Lutheran, 2% Presbyterian but in total the Protestants
are the 31.8-40%, 1.5-1.9% Orthodox, 2.6% Jewish… The usual self adscriptions are: 56% Protestant ( 6% So. Baptists,
10% other Baptists, 9% Methodists, 6% Lutherans, 3% Pentacostalists, 3% Presbyterians, 2% Episcopalians, 1% Church
of Christ and an 11% in none of these); 26% as Catholics; 1% is Mormon; and according to The 1998 Britannica Book of
Year, the non-christians are: 8.8% Nonreligionists, 2% Muslim (with Black Muslims), 2% Jewish, 0.7% Buddhists, 0.3%
Hindus, 0.3% Atheists, 1% other religionists. - Data: Appeared in ABC news, to teach creationism and evolutionism in the school: 68% yes - 29% not; to teach creationism
without evolutionism: 40% yes - 55% not; the human race was created by god 10.000 years ago maximum 44%, created with
evolution but with the providence too 39%, evolution only without god 10%. Poll of Gallup '99 shows a 33% of believers in a
literal Bible. In a survey among catholics in 1995, the 43% accept the abortion but in case of ill or violation, other 15% never;
the 76-82% a favour of the use of anticonceptives; but among all the americans (according to a poll appeared in the CBS 1995):
the 46% think that is assassination, but the half of those thinks that sometimes is necessary. Continuing with the catholics,
the 57% practice weekly and the 28% once per month min., the 83% believe that the bread and the wine of the mass is the
Body of Christ. In the Harris poll '95, 95% believe in god, 90% in the heaven, 80% in the divinity of Christ, 89% in the after life,
87% in miracles, 85% in the virginity of Mary. In another survey, among the believers in the heaven (81%), the 5% think that
after his/her death will be the end, the 6% will be the reincarnation. In a poll by the Yankelovich Partners '97, the 25% of all
americans believe in some degree in the reincarnation. Gallup '95 and '96: White protestants whom in the self description is
fundamentalist is 24% ( 28% vote republican, 20% democrat); your religion is important in your life ?, 60% all (50% men -
68% women - 48% in 18/29 age - 58% in 30/49 age - 67% in 50/64 age - 73% in more of 65 age. In the self ascription: 28%
Catholic, 0.4% Orthodox, 57% Protestants (where 19% Baptists, 6% Lutherans, 9% Methodists) = 85.4% Christians, 0.5%
Islamic, 1.8% Jewish, 9% None. Nowadays, the 40% is weekly practicing and the 89% believe in god (1997). In New York,
19% bisexual or homosexual, another cipher: By 500.000 US heroinomans, the half dwell here. USA: The 13% of the
matrimonies finish in divorce. According to Andrew Greeley, 57% believe in hell, 70% in the heaven, 80% in the other life.
Gallup '98 believing in a literal Bible 38%, inspired 45.6%, without god 13%; in others polls, they show to us that in 1998-99
the 96% believe in god. About the reincarnation vary depending the source in: 35% (CNN in '90), 20% in 1991, 20% (Gallup’98),
30% (Luitz Research, in George 12/96). According to certain calculus there are 4.000.000 Freemasons.
The Harris Polls have some different results surely because of the way to ask; the number 52 in September 2000, at the
question of beliefs was “Please say for each one if you believe in it, or not” (Negative or positive answers only) give us these
results: God 94% - Heaven 89% - Resurection of Christ 86% - Survival of the soul after death 86% - Miracles 85% - Virginity
of Mary 82% - Devil 72% - Hell 73% - Ghosts 39% - Reincarnation 20%.
If we go deeply into the american beliefs, the journalist Russell Chandler (Los Angeles Times) reports that a 40% believe
that god is all and all is god (pantheism); Gallup reports that the majority of the Christians in America believe in biblical
Trinity; and other polls report that a 62% believe the Holy Spirit do not represents a personal entity but a divine manifestation
of power… The calculations let us a big portion of people that put on the same level God and a fly (all is god), in a TRInity
composted by two persons, etc. ( ! ). - Abortions: 22.9 (1996), representing to 1.365.700 babies / Ratio: 25.9%. The 78% of the women that “aborted” their children
were unmarried. - New statistic: 2% Atheist; 4% Agnostic; 2% Pseudoatheist in ISSP98; 14% Deist; 5% Jewish and others; 4% Christian
deist; 21% Neodoukhobor; 8-0% Pseudochristian; 40-48% Christian (26% Protestant; 13% Catholic). Approximate
valuation.
So if we look at the non-religious, what we often call freethinker (Agnostic & Atheist).
US = ~8%
Canada = ~18%France = ~50%
Germany = ~44%
UK = ~40%Compare to France, Germany and the UK, we can consider North-america to be highly religious.
-
quote:
So if we look at the non-religious, what we often call freethinker (Agnostic & Atheist).that’s a beautiful quote. does that make me a non-freethinker? This suggests something is seriously wrong with the education system over here. But question: In an atheist family, where the children are raised to believe that there is no God (or god), then why would this be a freethinking family?
a very subjective quote. Many of the Christians i know are freethinkers who came to “find Christ” in a way that either:
displeased their parents greatly
displeased their society greatly
or came after years of searching, reading, studying various philosophies, etc. -
@cystic:
quote:
So if we look at the non-religious, what we often call freethinker (Agnostic & Atheist).that’s a beautiful quote. does that make me a non-freethinker?
I guess FinsterniS took Freethinker from an old synonym for masons in german and translated that literally. The term changed somewhat in its actual meaning in times though, exactly towards what he mentioned in the brackets.
-
playing with word ? That is just a word often use to describe the non-religious faction (Atheist, Agnostic, Humanist). I personnaly don’t like the word Freethinker, so i add “what we often call” to explain i did’nt say they necessarly were Freethinker, we just call the group of Atheist, Agnostic…, Freethinker.
-
@F_alk:
it uses its strength to go against muslim fundamentalist states for the reason that they are fundamentalists, .
Actually no. We are fighting Muslim Fundamentalists because they don’t lke this. Now, you can argue that they don’t like us because we support Israel or something in that vein, but the reason that we are in conflict is that they don’t like us and are not afraid to demonstrate this fact.
About the pledge, in America children pledge their alleigance to the U.S. The pledge includes the words “under God” Recently one of our courts (appellate) declared it unconstitutional, however, the decision is being overturned even as we post.
-
First, about the Catholic Schools, IZ you took what I said out of context.
One, we were talking about private schools, as in voucher program. One of the attacks made on the voucher program is that the only schools willing to take them are the Catholic schools. Now the Catholic schools were originally specifically for the poor. Because the Catholic immigrants were poor. Two things happened, less people became nuns and Catholics moved up in social mobility. So the schools began to cost money. However, even today anyone who wants to go can go. Those who can pay pay, those who cannot are given assistance, sometimes 100%. That is largely because the parish and diocese kick in, subsidizing the schools. Anyway, any family who wants a Catholic Education can get it.I have a joke relating to this. A little girl was doing poorly at math at school, so in desperation her parents pulled her out of public school and put her into the local parochial school. She immeadiatly began to do much better. So her parents asked her what made the difference. The little girl said that on her first day she noticed the sculpture of the man nailed to the plus sign, and realized that these people took math very seriously, so she redoubled her efforts.
Fisternis, less than half of France is Catholic? I want to see those statistics.
A crazy American fundamentalist, and proud of it
-Me -
Fisternis, less than half of France is Catholic? I want to see those statistics.
FiNsterniS. Here religion is pretty weak. France was the defensor of Catholicism, now it is more the defector :)
These stats are from survey (it was a website that is now down, it is where i took the stats on USA), so they ask people in what they believe, not how they were born.
It states;
France
Atheist 19%
Non-materialist Atheist 6%
Agnostic 25%Deist or Christian Deist 15%
Bouddhism (reincarnationism) 17%
Catholic 12%
Other Monotheist 1%This is pretty consistent with what i see here so i trust the statistic.
-
Wow, 17% Buddist? Very interesting. The only religion I have ever respected was Buddism, but I didnt think it had such a following in Europe.
-
Wow, 17% Buddist? Very interesting. The only religion I have ever respected was Buddism, but I didnt think it had such a following in Europe.
Buddhism philosophy turn around the elimination of suffering, and french are “bon vivant”. Also buddhism is the only religion that is not in confrontation (for now anyway) in any point with science…
-
Well, I tried to study every religion before chosing one (or choosing atheism). Buddism is a close pick. However out of the Asian religions, I think Toaism (which follows closely to Confucius teachings) comes out on top. Toaism follows very closely to my own personal beliefs (moral standards, ethics, communism [sorry had to throw that in] :wink:). It would be even stronger if not for the Chinese era of warlords and the ensuing Cultural Revolution. But from what I heard, it has a pretty good following in Canada. :roll:
BTW: Neo-Toaism fits this bill very much, though adaptations of viewing Lao-Tse as a deity don’t touch with me.
-
Asian were very evolved, they not make such simplification as Good & Evil, their “equivalent”, the Yin/Yang theory, is far more complex, deep, and even very coherent with the world around us. Sadly, some occidental “translate” Yin into Evil and Yang into Good.
-
Anyway, any family who wants a Catholic Education can get it.
I completely agree with you all the way until this last sentence. There are many families out there who would love to get a Catholic Education, but they cannot. This isn’t because they don’t have the money, it’s because they’re not accepted. For instance, yourbuttocks, here at O’Dea, you and I both know that for every student in our school, there are at least 3 or 4 other students who didn’t get in…that’s why I don’t agree that “anyone who wants catholic education can get it.”
Financially, Yes. But there are other circumstances to consider.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand. Banning “one nation under God” from our Pledge of Allegiance is absolutely absurd. First of all, an overwhelming 90% of American citizens believe in “God.” So don’t tell me that the United States shouldn’t be a Christian state. That’s b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t becuase if banning God from the Pledge of Allegiance stays, and every mention of “God” is unconstitutional, the official religion of this country will be Atheism. In turn, you’re breaking my right to “freedom of speech.”
-
Why do you need that phrase in there? Get the hell out of this country if you want to create a Religious state. Religion is Non-Secular. Who cares about “the majority”, “the majority” was in favor of slavery at one time, was that right?
The constitution says this, Your free to practice any Religion, but the Goverment will not take into account any Religion (state sponsered or otherwise) when making laws.
-
“Who cares about “the majority”, “the majority” was in favor of slavery at one time, was that right?”
Whoa, sounding much like the dictator here aren’t we? Interesting how many dictators, think that they are ruling for “what’s best” for the people before consulting the majority. This is a tall order to follow. But about slavery, yes, it wasn’t right. So what if our Found Fathers (many of which owned slaves themselves) were to write the Constitution to outlawing slavery? Would’ve saved us a whole lot of trouble right? Of course, this is assuming the Southern States would’ve signed the Constitution in the first place, a fragile issue even without slavery (many Americans were distrustful in handing over their rights to another centralized government). Also the issue of slavery isn’t black and white. Just in the North, there was also racism and prejudice. Slaves were cared for; they were a valued commodity. You never saw a homeless slave nor without food, as seen in the North.
Eventually there were enough people to say slavery was wrong (though the majority only wanted the containment of slavery in the Deep South), and this is what led to the election of Abe Lincoln. This took time, as well as many other “rights” (ex Universal Suffrage, direct election of senators). In slavery, there were many Compromises, Popular Sovereignty, intermittent conflicts (ex. Bleeding Kansas) and eventually a Civil War that led up to the “end” of slavery. However, even after Reconstruction, many blacks were still working in a sharecropping system very similar to if not worse then slavery. And how many people think alcohol here is harmful, too? Yet, because the majority supports it, it would be impossible to prohibit. Same, with the Pledge of Allegiance. However, with the Pledge, it isn’t as easy to tell what is “right.”
-
Ok, heres a majority question for you. What if we caught Osama Bin Ladin? The Majority wouldn’t mind roping him to a post and selling tickets to beat him every sunday. Is that right? No, thats why we have laws.
-
Ummmm 90% of Americans belive in God?..…somehow I do think so.
Suggested Topics
