Why should we simply respect the christian faith in our government. Isn’t America a nation for all? then why don’t we pay respects to other religons too? Is our history so all important that we can’t change traditions so that they will be all inclusive? In modern times you can’t represent the entire nation when you refer to any sort of deity, so if the US is so worried about equally representing everyone the only feasable solution would be to remove all references to religion from coinage and such. Otherwise you have all sorts of cases of Americans not being represented by their own country.
but again, how about the “majority rule question”? Given that America is a democratic country, should not the lawmakers abide by the mandate of the voters? It is not communist yet, afterall.
Thanks, errr… Guest! :P
But really, most of that credit belongs to my Conservative friends who supplied most of the information. I’m just take scraps from here and there, pasting it together, editing some parts, adding a special brand of logic and humor into one organized, coherent post. And the way the Courts are going you might see Thanksgiving altered (no more saying grace). But then they’ll have to ply that turkey drumstick out of my cold, dead hands! :wink:
bossk, I see where you’re coming from. However, the Christian faith alone does not run our government (not to the extend that religion had in Europe). I do think we should at least allow religion (as said in the 1st Amendment) and its moral ethics (ie most of the Ten Commandments). And if most Americans wanted the words “Under God” removed from the Pledge, then there should be a legitimate concerned about it. While I may not always agree with what the “majority” has to say, I at least achknowledge their decision (ex once Bill Clinton got re-elected, I did not burn a life size replica of him and refuse to believe he would not be our next president). But this isn’t the case. Most Americans want our Pledge just the way it is. Instead, this is simply 2 of the 3 9th Circuit Judges making a rather brash decision without at least consulting the rest of the 9th Circuit panel.
“Otherwise you have all sorts of cases of Americans not being represented by their own country? “
What I learned is that you can’t appease everybody. What about all the ruthless convicts in jail? Maybe some of those don’t believe in having “justice for all” (meaning they could commit crimes with impunity). What about diehard white supremacist who don’t believe in “liberty for all?” What about fellow Confederates, such as myself, that don’t believe in a republic “indivisible?” Don’t we have just as much right to amend the Pledge as we see fit?
The problem is that the Catholic Schools are the only ones willing to take the poor.
You’ve GOT to be kidding me! You think catholic schools are the only ones willing to take the poor? Do you KNOW how much money I spend in taxes so some punk in the inner-city can go to school and smoke crack with his friends?
You couldn’t be more wrong. Everyone in this country pays for educaiton, whether they use it or not. This education is provided to everyone, regardless of race, religion, etc. Whereas in a catholic school, the students pay for their own education, and therefore the schools get to choose who they let in. If Catholic schools were in the business of accepting every poor person in this country, there would be no catholic schools….
so if the US is so worried about equally representing everyone the only feasable solution would be to remove all references to religion from coinage and such.
Woops…you’re wrong. The United States was formed with the understanding that you should not be prevented from believing in your own religion.
Now, by me saying the Pledge of Allegiance in school, I fail to see how this is stopping someone of another religion from practicing their beliefs.
How’s this for freedom? If you don’t want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, or don’t believe in what is says…THEN DON’T SAY IT. But to stand up and try to dismantle a part of history that our country was founded on, is wrong. I don’t give a shit whether some aitheist thinks that saying “God” in school is wrong, this country runs on the majority, and CLEARLY the majority of the people in this country believe in God.
I commend the President for standing up against those damn liberals in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
The Pledge of Alligence is a representation of what America stands for and American ideals. While most Americans are christians, it is not a christian nation and should not be veiwed as one. This would be similar to including something about being white in the Pledge; after all most americans are white. The majority does rule in America, but within certain limits. If the majority really ruled then I would not be able to express many of my opinions becuase most people think they are either stupid or simply wrong.
@TG:
Thanks, errr… Guest! :P
yes yes,
sometimes your guest is me, the Crypt.
my 'puter’s in the shop and i’m too lazy to log on. Mind you, i do find it fun and kind of liberating to be anonymous sometimes. Kind of like walking around my condo nude . . . .
So what your saying is America should be a Christian State, with Christian laws, but your aloud to practice any Religion as long as it goes along with Christian laws? Whats next, outlawing Polytheism? Making Satanism illegal? Taking away free speech rights against the church?
Just think of something. Right now, many, many Catholic priests have admitted to child molesting. People are debating whether or not they should be aloud to still be priests. If they were any other profession, each priest would be on trial right now.
So what your saying is America should be a Christian State, with Christian laws, but your aloud to practice any Religion as long as it goes along with Christian laws?
Absolutely not, I do not believe that America should be a Christian state, but I do believe America needs to retain the values that it was founded on.
As for the scandal in the church, that’s an entirely different subject. I think those priests (aka: molesters) should be punished just like anyone else in society, and that’s what’ll happen. The church can do whatever it wants on it’s side, but the plain and simple fact still remains: they are a danger to society. Anyways, this is for another thread….so i’ll leave it at that.
Well Yanny, i think that it might be thought of another way. Allowing Christians more freedom of speach, for example. Leveling the playing field in more respects. For example, “free speach” against the church in many instances would be considered a “hate crime” against another religion or culture (the two are often entwined), or at the least “not very p.c.”. Yet the Christian church must endure it for some reason (i.e. it is secured for by the first amendment).
Now true, the make up of America is different today then it was when originally a haven of refuge sought by religious persecutants, but i have a problem identifying what is wrong with maintaining its religious traditions, history, or even allowing the majority its voice. Does it suggest the persecution of other beliefs and cultures? Or the diminishment or ignore-ance of other faiths?
Of course, as a Canadian, i am afraid that my knowledge of America is limited to what i learned in school, the news, here, and Hollywood, so please forgive me for sticking my nose where it might not belong.
Cystic Crypt…Nice Post. :wink:
“sometimes your guest is me, the Crypt.”
Ha, I knew that religious banther had to come from somewhere :wink:
BTW, I enjoyed reading your previous post, it was very true to life. (Poor Christians… :cry: )
“The majority does rule in America, but within certain limits.”
I agree. That’s why we are endowed with certain “inalienable rights” that cannot be taken away. However, you’ll be hard pressed to find “separation of church and state” in the Constitution as opposed to Freedom of Speech. But just as a question, if this ruling does stick, what happens now? What if in disgust, I now recite the Pledge every single day? (as opposed to probably only once a week) What is my punishment for not adhering to the code and expressing my own freedom of expression? What “inalienable right” are the authorities now taking away?
“While most Americans are christians, it is not a christian nation and should not be veiwed as one.”
In the eyes of the world, it probably is viewed as one (well maybe in the eyes of FinsterniS [j/k] :wink:). And I’m not seeing how removing the words “under God” insure 100% that this is a Christian God we’re talking about. How do we know it’s not Zeus? Or Vishnu? Or Bokonon? I think we ourselves are responsible for making the biggest assumption of all.
But for a different (though related) subject matter, the Courts ruled in favor of vouchers used to attend private schools. What do you guys think of this? Personally, I’m pro-vouchers, though if can convince me otherwise, I will change my position. :wink: Many people believe that it is sending kids to attend Religious schools (which most private schools happen to be). However, the money is given for the student who has the Freedom to decide what school to attend. This is not money given to the religious school itself.
“While most Americans are christians, it is not a christian nation and should not be veiwed as one.”
Maybe not a “christian nation”, but at least a very religious nation with a very judeo-christian sence of moral.
UNITED STATES
So if we look at the non-religious, what we often call freethinker (Agnostic & Atheist).
US = ~8%
Canada = ~18%
France = ~50%
Germany = ~44%
UK = ~40%
Compare to France, Germany and the UK, we can consider North-america to be highly religious.
quote:
So if we look at the non-religious, what we often call freethinker (Agnostic & Atheist).
that’s a beautiful quote. does that make me a non-freethinker? This suggests something is seriously wrong with the education system over here. But question: In an atheist family, where the children are raised to believe that there is no God (or god), then why would this be a freethinking family?
a very subjective quote. Many of the Christians i know are freethinkers who came to “find Christ” in a way that either:
displeased their parents greatly
displeased their society greatly
or came after years of searching, reading, studying various philosophies, etc.
@cystic:
quote:
So if we look at the non-religious, what we often call freethinker (Agnostic & Atheist).that’s a beautiful quote. does that make me a non-freethinker?
I guess FinsterniS took Freethinker from an old synonym for masons in german and translated that literally. The term changed somewhat in its actual meaning in times though, exactly towards what he mentioned in the brackets.
playing with word ? That is just a word often use to describe the non-religious faction (Atheist, Agnostic, Humanist). I personnaly don’t like the word Freethinker, so i add “what we often call” to explain i did’nt say they necessarly were Freethinker, we just call the group of Atheist, Agnostic…, Freethinker.
@F_alk:
it uses its strength to go against muslim fundamentalist states for the reason that they are fundamentalists, .
Actually no. We are fighting Muslim Fundamentalists because they don’t lke this. Now, you can argue that they don’t like us because we support Israel or something in that vein, but the reason that we are in conflict is that they don’t like us and are not afraid to demonstrate this fact.
About the pledge, in America children pledge their alleigance to the U.S. The pledge includes the words “under God” Recently one of our courts (appellate) declared it unconstitutional, however, the decision is being overturned even as we post.
First, about the Catholic Schools, IZ you took what I said out of context.
One, we were talking about private schools, as in voucher program. One of the attacks made on the voucher program is that the only schools willing to take them are the Catholic schools. Now the Catholic schools were originally specifically for the poor. Because the Catholic immigrants were poor. Two things happened, less people became nuns and Catholics moved up in social mobility. So the schools began to cost money. However, even today anyone who wants to go can go. Those who can pay pay, those who cannot are given assistance, sometimes 100%. That is largely because the parish and diocese kick in, subsidizing the schools. Anyway, any family who wants a Catholic Education can get it.
I have a joke relating to this. A little girl was doing poorly at math at school, so in desperation her parents pulled her out of public school and put her into the local parochial school. She immeadiatly began to do much better. So her parents asked her what made the difference. The little girl said that on her first day she noticed the sculpture of the man nailed to the plus sign, and realized that these people took math very seriously, so she redoubled her efforts.
Fisternis, less than half of France is Catholic? I want to see those statistics.
A crazy American fundamentalist, and proud of it
-Me
Fisternis, less than half of France is Catholic? I want to see those statistics.
FiNsterniS. Here religion is pretty weak. France was the defensor of Catholicism, now it is more the defector :)
These stats are from survey (it was a website that is now down, it is where i took the stats on USA), so they ask people in what they believe, not how they were born.
It states;
France
Atheist 19%
Non-materialist Atheist 6%
Agnostic 25%
Deist or Christian Deist 15%
Bouddhism (reincarnationism) 17%
Catholic 12%
Other Monotheist 1%
This is pretty consistent with what i see here so i trust the statistic.
Wow, 17% Buddist? Very interesting. The only religion I have ever respected was Buddism, but I didnt think it had such a following in Europe.
