Ger Sub SZ8 to SZ10 combat first round?

[Paulzy]

I know its risky but, the Ger sub in SZ8 is in range of US SZ10.  Since the sub gets the sneak attack, if it hits on the first roll, it will wipe out all 3 boats!  (unless im missing something)  Of course UK has a transport that cant defend at all sitting there, attacking it is what I have been doing.  Hopefully I will get some feed back on this and thanks :)

[CptnKeener]

I have also been pulling this move when I’ve played germany. Seems like an easy wipeout  :?

[Veqryn]

50% you kill all 3 and live, 50% you die without hitting anything
bad game design for a first round battle imo

[Concealer]

I usually use that sub in conjunction with a fighter or two in order to take out the UK crusier by Gilbralter. Using it to try and take out the U.S. is interesting however. You may need to take the risk here if you strongly believe the U.S. will invade Africa in round 1.

[SilverAngelSurfer]

@Veqryn:

50% you kill all 3 and live, 50% you die without hitting anything
bad game design for a first round battle imo

Since subs hit on attack on a 2, wouldn’t it be a 33% chance of getting a hit on the surprise attack?  Then if you miss it’d be a 50% chance you die without hitting anything…  Then rinse and repeat…  Doesn’t look like a bad game design to me, especially when you have the choice of going after a 100% kill with the one UK transport, or supporting a more even odds attack on a battleship in sz2.

[Granada]

And Do you do the Bom, fig attack on the UK SZ2 then? Because if you do, the trade is to get both planes killed and still run a approx. 1/3 risk of not sinking the battleship. And as a German player I would prefer to have a allied cruiser in SZ8 to having there a battleship (together with the loaded AC and 2dd the UK may buy R1).

I would definitely use the SZ 8 sub on sinking the SZ2 UK fleet.

[habs4life9]

@Granada:

And Do you do the Bom, fig attack on the UK SZ2 then? Because if you do, the trade is to get both planes killed and still run a approx. 1/3 risk of not sinking the battleship. And as a German player I would prefer to have a allied cruiser in SZ8 to having there a battleship (together with the loaded AC and 2dd the UK may buy R1).

I would definitely use the SZ 8 sub on sinking the SZ2 UK fleet.

I used to do the Z2 attack on G1 against the UK BB and the Russian sub, but I’ve found this is entirely too risky. It is big if it works, but if the dice go bad for you you will pay dearly for it for the rest of the game. It’s similar to the R1 Norway attack, extremely high reward but much too high of a risk. I see the Z10 attack as also (too) high-risk, high-reward. 2/3 times you won’t hit your surprise strke, and then you have a 50/50 chance of losing your sub for absolutely nothing. If the Americans want to take Algeria on US1, I say let them, usually as Germany I move my Algeria units into Libya for a 2nd offensive into Egypt (I always assume UK will counter Egypt) and deadzone Algeria as bait. If I’m playing US, I usually do not go to Algeria on US1, deadzone or not, because only the cruiser would be able to accompany the shuck. This is not good if Germany has Luftwaffe positioned in Western Europe. Instead I build a proper navy and move them all out at the same time to Z12 on US2. Algeria may be an important base of Allied operations throughout the course of the game as they set up to hit West and South, but Egypt is MUCH more important for the Axis, and you can’t divide your forces so much to control both. Germany spreading her (his? Fatherland lol) forces thin is a recipe for disaster.

[habs4life9]

Also if you truly believe UK will build up navally on UK1, but you do not want to attack the Z2 BB, then why not opt for two more Baltic U-boats on your G1 buy? Then place two ftrs in Norway and two in W.Eu. (assuming 4 German ftrs are alive at the end of your turn). This way, you will pose a threat to every sea zone into which UK can build. The Allies will inevitably control the Atlantic by the 3rd or 4th rond of play, so the best bet for your Kriegsmarine is to score a tactical victory against the UK fleet with a joint Kriegsmarine/Luftwaffe attack (retreat as soon as your U-boats die, hopefully you’ll have decimated the UK fleet). For this it is essential that your ftrs are on the Western front. Remember that if UK has indeed put destroyers in the water, you CAN choose your subs as casualties of UK ftr hits for as many rounds as at least one UK DD is alive.

[Veqryn]

@SilverAngelSurfer:

@Veqryn:

50% you kill all 3 and live, 50% you die without hitting anything
bad game design for a first round battle imo

Since subs hit on attack on a 2, wouldn’t it be a 33% chance of getting a hit on the surprise attack?  Then if you miss it’d be a 50% chance you die without hitting anything…  Then rinse and repeat…  Doesn’t look like a bad game design to me, especially when you have the choice of going after a 100% kill with the one UK transport, or supporting a more even odds attack on a battleship in sz2.

do the math all the way out
it ends up being 50% win and survive and kill all, 50% lose and do nothing

the reason is because it is only 50% of the remaining 66.7%.  then you get 33% of the remaining 33%.  then 50% of the remaining 22%.  take this out to infinity, or even just 10 rounds, or even just 2 rounds, and it is 50/50.

so, for example, if you are doing only 2 rounds:
sub wins =
33% + 11% = 44%
destroyer wins =
33% + 11% = 44%
no one wins, go to next round =
remaining 12%

in fact, if you count the fact that the sub goes first, it is a little higher:
2.5 rounds:
sub wins =
33% + 11% + 4% = 48%
destroyer win =
33% + 11% = 44%
sub does not win, roll for last half of 3rd round:
8%

battles that are all or nothing, like this one (if you win, you kill 3 units and survive with no damage taken, if you lose you do not damage anything and lose everything), are VERY BAD GAME DESIGN
you might as well just play roulette

[Concealer]

A sub verses a cruiser one on one sounds like a horrible situation. Usually when I attack, I attack with enough to make sure that whatever it is I’m going after is going to die. You bring more than enough to take out your target. The only time you don’t is when you are desperate and at that point the game most likely is already lost, or close to it.

[Granada]

But dont you really do the SZ2? It goes well most of the time. If you do not do it, the Allied fleet is too strong already R1 and can land Africa already round 1. I cannot belive anybody would not take the risk of taking out the UK bb and trannie R1 for just a sub /which is going to die anyway/ and a fig.

[Violent.copper]

I say the Sz2 attack is completely necessary, it is a little risky but look at it this way the Russian sub is hits on a 1 so it killing your sub is unlikely, that leaves your sub which will probably miss but with a hit that means the allies lose the only Russian sub they have or absorb the hit and drown by a bomber, if the sub misses You can count on the bomber/fighter to score one hit witch can’t be assigned to the sub, the allies will most likely hit with the BB you lose the sub and then the Bomber/fighter combo will finsh the fleet and if the BB hits again what’s another fighter you can buy one turn 1 and still have 30 IPC witch should be infantry anyways. and if your concern is money if you win you can definantly kill 27 IPCs (BB, Trans) and lose only 16max(fighter and sub if you win) if you lose than its 28 IPCs witch is only 1 more IPC than the U.K could have lost, and with the taking of Egypt the u.ks money is toast. even with a counter on Egypt Germany can take it again turn 2, a parked air force in westE allows the air force to kill any U.S/U.K navy attempt to deadzone Algeria Rd,1.

If you don’t do the battle your looking at a u.k BB,2destroyers and a Aircraft carrier with possible two fighters on it, and at that point losing your fighters in an attempt to kill their Navy will have to happen since a U.K invasion is a guaranteed to happen sooner or later. 
@Paulzy:

I would only consider attacking SZ2 if Russia did not non combat its sub there.  1 Sub, 1 BB is too risky to me.  I wana keep my Bomber and Fighters as long as possible with Germany.  Just my opinion.

I think by Killing the BB first turn it is actually saving the air force since the U.K now needs to build a fleet instead of just invade with the already existing one.

@Paulzy:

I know its risky but, the Ger sub in SZ8 is in range of US SZ10.  Since the sub gets the sneak attack, if it hits on the first roll, it will wipe out all 3 boats!  (unless im missing something)  Of course UK has a transport that cant defend at all sitting there, attacking it is what I have been doing.  Hopefully I will get some feed back on this and thanks :)

I saw that too and I think that even if you kill the cruiser and transports, the U.S is still only 1 turn from rebuilding its Navy and can still be in Algeria turn 2 or 3, your going to lose the sub to the destroyer in sz20 and the bomber and fighter in EastU.S, and leaving the U.K fleet alive hurts germany more in the long run than a U.S Fleet thats sole purpose is africa which is only 2 starting IPCs witch 38IPCs is ok to me but the U.S will spend so much time chasing you in africa and failing in france that taking caucasus by an Infantry push in turn 3/4 is all but inevitable.