If the Japan player does J1 and pulls it off then by J4 they out spend the allies combined…after that its all down hill for the allies. The allies have no stratgies that work at this point and America can’t build a fleet that can’t be beaten sorry.
J1 attack very tough on allies
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I’ll say this again. If you play AGGRESSIVE, there is no reason NOT to attack on J1.
If by AGGRESSIVE, you mean RISKY (or at least RISKIER) then I’m inclined to agree 100%. It’s more of higher risk/higher reward option IMO. I do think it leaves you more open to being zapped by the dice, but if that doesn’t happen you are probably in a superior position depending on how the Allies respond. But ‘aggressive’ does not always mean ‘better’….
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Here’s what I mean. If you are willing to lose planes (4th commandment of A&A has always been do not use planes as soakers, I know!) then you can run over the mainland of Asia.
We have a game going right now. I think we’re in turn 6, it might be 7 and Japan is earning 75 a turn. Japan has a fleet sitting at the Phils consisting of 6 CVs with 6 of each plane, 3 BBs, 2 CAs, and 14DDs. There is NOTHING that can be done against that by the US/ANZAC who are earning 65. I could care less that the US has a Fleet of 3 CVs, 3 BBs, 1CA and 18DDs sitting in Queensland. I’m making 10 more per turn. I can dump 7 zeros and an infantry down in the homeland if he thinks about heading north, and my fleet can cut his off. Again, Japan is making 75, US 55, ANZAC 10. This is not “atypical” for a game around these parts.
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With the low number of units the Allies have at the start of the game I also thought of trying a J1 push.
some thoughts:
Burma road - it enables the Chinese to buy artillery instead Infantry - would that be so bad? China starts with 12IPC = 4 INF OR 3 ART/INF mixture. Art is also only hepling in attack (wouldn’t Japan like it that China attacks?).
IIRC then a lone Trsp (Hawaii) does NOT provoke combat - leavr trsp alone and focus on the Island - enables shore bombardment - so JP fleet could go to Hawaii and block out the US fleet (IIRC the JP is larger)
Securing Malaya and/HK is prime priority - could you “ignore” Phillies for a turn (no chance to build there)? we are used to attack phillies first, but is it necessary?
Instead of an minor IC in China - I’d buy a 3rd transport for shuttling troops from Japan (quite a stack there)
IC then on J2
If you take Hawaii and Hongkong J1 and Phillies J2 you have 5 VCs
From there you can deceide wether you go after India or Australia - depending on how many trs you have fully loaded.
i this scenario China and teh DEI would NOT be prime targets as they supply IPCs and this strategy focusses on speed
If you capture enough VC it does not matter how much US produces.
I might add taking Hawaii and splanting your J fleet there allows (fly planes to Hawaii for scrambling ;)
to delay the US fleet for some time (even strike out at the West Coast initial fleet - US can’t build too much on US 1) at J2I know its risky, but this stratregy mirrors somewhat the original Japanese plan in 1941. Strike Quick and Strike hard - then the war is over.
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Here’s what I mean. If you are willing to lose planes (4th commandment of A&A has always been do not use planes as soakers, I know!) then you can run over the mainland of Asia.
We have a game going right now. I think we’re in turn 6, it might be 7 and Japan is earning 75 a turn. Japan has a fleet sitting at the Phils consisting of 6 CVs with 6 of each plane, 3 BBs, 2 CAs, and 14DDs. There is NOTHING that can be done against that by the US/ANZAC who are earning 65. I could care less that the US has a Fleet of 3 CVs, 3 BBs, 1CA and 18DDs sitting in Queensland. I’m making 10 more per turn. I can dump 7 zeros and an infantry down in the homeland if he thinks about heading north, and my fleet can cut his off. Again, Japan is making 75, US 55, ANZAC 10. This is not “atypical” for a game around these parts.
Interesting. We NEVER see those kind of build ups in our games! Good lord, no wonder the Japanese are winning easily - it sounds like the US is just sitting around trying to outproduce the starting Japanese fleet + reinforcements. Well that is never gonna work…
In any case, that game is already over - the Allies have lost. They lost it turns and turns ago and THAT is where the vulnerability is in a J1 attack. And the Allies in that game have totally missed that opportunity. You can pack that one up and start again. ;)
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The big thing about these heavy hitting J1s is they are gimmicky, once you have seen the plan once then you will know how to stop it a second time. The allies will be prone to making mistakes, but after enough games I feel you will see how to exploit each and every J1 plan.
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Hey guys, I dont mean to sound like a neophyte here, but I assume when you say J1, you mean Japan attacks the US on the 1st turn, presumably in the Phillipines. My own experience says this is not sound judgment. Let say you commit forces to grab the phillipines. You just dropped US production by 7 and increased yours by 7. That’s a 14 IPC difference in favor of the empire. Now of course you just increased US production by 40 two rounds early. By my count, that’s 28 vs 80 over those two rounds. Economically speaking, it’s not sound, so let’s talk about strategic value…
The phillipines cannot produce. They have to be reinforced by ships that take 3 rounds to arrive. During those first 3 rounds, the allies use peacetime to send the biggest fleet possible down to support the phillipines while rebuilding Western US fleet for the eventual assault on Japan (supported by at least 4 bombers on Midway, three of which were grabbed from the phillipines, hawaii and west-usa). Once all that is done, you have a noteworthy fleet in the phillipines and some nice IPC (7) to support the war effort). That sounds nice, but…
If that fleet ever leaves the phillipines, the phillipines are vulnerable. So they are stuck there, providing only IPC protection and the threat of a sneak attack deterrent. They certainly dont have the units to perform some kind of an asian invasion. Since the phillipines cant produce, I’m not even sure what the value of the island actually is, other than the 7 IPC. The usa cant trickle more ships down there after peacetime ends, so their effectively cut off from reinforcements as well. Unless you later decide to send down a big protected fleet, but that will take 3 turns, ruin your offensive, and give away your plans long before they come to fruition.
Based on all of that, if I was japan, I would not attack the phillipines until round 4. And if the US had a sizable fleet down there, then I’d just let em sit there the whole game until they decided to foolishly attack my fleet and leave the tasty IPC production of the phillipines unprotected.
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Yes, that is what a ‘J1 attack’ refers to. :)
But the goal is to prevent the Allies in Asia from increasing their econ. By attacking on J1, you can kill both Brit TRs and 2 of the 3 US TRs starting out as well as deny the Brits their bonus income from control of their 2 starting major ports. So in essence you are trading that US income boost for a reduced Brit income (and the ability to kill the BB and TRs while they are vulnerable alone).
I think the timing for a Japanese attack will vary from game to game based on Allied responses. Of course that is irrelevant if you are attacking on J1, but IMO a J1 attack is not as weighted of a blow and it is subject to reverses if the dice dont cooperate in any of the battles.
I’ve tried the J1 attack and while I won the game as Japan, it was largely due to the Allies not making a cohesive response. I’m guessing that is probably true for a lot of people playing against the J1 attack at this point and thus it looks so successful. But I’ve also beaten the J1 attack as the Allies twice in a row now and it was a far easier road than when I played against a good J2 attack previously.
This is probably one of those issues that people will debate for a long time (and that’s a good thing IMO). It helps keep the game from getting stale since there is less of a ‘scripted’ opening.
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REALLY wish the pac40 triplea map was finished.
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But the goal is to prevent the Allies in Asia from increasing their econ. By attacking on J1, you can kill both Brit TRs and 2 of the 3 US TRs starting out as well as deny the Brits their bonus income from control of their 2 starting major ports. So in essence you are trading that US income boost for a reduced Brit income (and the ability to kill the BB and TRs while they are vulnerable alone).
Ok, this is what I was missing. I didnt realize that attacking the britons brought the US into the war. The britons can attack japan and bring ANZAC into the war, but not the US. In my two simulations, I conquered Kwangtung on J1, but did not move the US production marker. This changes things significantly, as you can imagine. It takes at least 6 rounds to wipe out the british without their Kwangtung support. Giving them 3 rounds of an additional 8 IPC (3 for Kwangtung and 5 for the bonus) doesnt sit well with me. I think I’d rather attack them and bring the US into it. I’ll have to see.
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REALLY wish the pac40 triplea map was finished.
U and me both. Running solo simulations by hand is taxing. Unfortunately, my regular players keep not being able to show up in the 11th hour and I dont want to wait for their arrival to develop strategy. With the frequence of rules changes, I wasnt overly upset about it, but the errata has been stable for the past week or so, so I’d really like to get a game going.
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yeah, and i keep trying to get behind this abattlemap thing but the ridiculously small icons is too much for me to deal with
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Here’s what I mean. If you are willing to lose planes (4th commandment of A&A has always been do not use planes as soakers, I know!) then you can run over the mainland of Asia.
We have a game going right now. I think we’re in turn 6, it might be 7 and Japan is earning 75 a turn. Japan has a fleet sitting at the Phils consisting of 6 CVs with 6 of each plane, 3 BBs, 2 CAs, and 14DDs. There is NOTHING that can be done against that by the US/ANZAC who are earning 65. I could care less that the US has a Fleet of 3 CVs, 3 BBs, 1CA and 18DDs sitting in Queensland. I’m making 10 more per turn. I can dump 7 zeros and an infantry down in the homeland if he thinks about heading north, and my fleet can cut his off. Again, Japan is making 75, US 55, ANZAC 10. This is not “atypical” for a game around these parts.
Interesting. We NEVER see those kind of build ups in our games! Good lord, no wonder the Japanese are winning easily - it sounds like the US is just sitting around trying to outproduce the starting Japanese fleet + reinforcements. Well that is never gonna work…
In any case, that game is already over - the Allies have lost. They lost it turns and turns ago and THAT is where the vulnerability is in a J1 attack. And the Allies in that game have totally missed that opportunity. You can pack that one up and start again. ;)
That’s exactly what I thought after reading that post. The Allies lost that game eons ago…18DDs, I had to do a double take on that one. :-o
The Allies have to be like that tank factory in the battle for Stalingrad, where the tanks rolled right off the assembly line and into the battle. There is no time to waste posturing; “action this day”.
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With the low number of units the Allies have at the start of the game I also thought of trying a J1 push.
some thoughts:
Burma road - it enables the Chinese to buy artillery instead Infantry - would that be so bad? China starts with 12IPC = 4 INF OR 3 ART/INF mixture. Art is also only hepling in attack (wouldn’t Japan like it that China attacks?).
IIRC then a lone Trsp (Hawaii) does NOT provoke combat - leavr trsp alone and focus on the Island - enables shore bombardment - so JP fleet could go to Hawaii and block out the US fleet (IIRC the JP is larger)
Securing Malaya and/HK is prime priority - could you “ignore” Phillies for a turn (no chance to build there)? we are used to attack phillies first, but is it necessary?
Instead of an minor IC in China - I’d buy a 3rd transport for shuttling troops from Japan (quite a stack there)
IC then on J2
If you take Hawaii and Hongkong J1 and Phillies J2 you have 5 VCs
From there you can deceide wether you go after India or Australia - depending on how many trs you have fully loaded.
i this scenario China and teh DEI would NOT be prime targets as they supply IPCs and this strategy focusses on speed
If you capture enough VC it does not matter how much US produces.
I might add taking Hawaii and splanting your J fleet there allows (fly planes to Hawaii for scrambling ;)
to delay the US fleet for some time (even strike out at the West Coast initial fleet - US can’t build too much on US 1) at J2I know its risky, but this stratregy mirrors somewhat the original Japanese plan in 1941. Strike Quick and Strike hard - then the war is over.
Re: Burma road. people worried about J1 attacks being risky take a close look at the China attacks to reopen Burma road. Talk about risky! Fighter + 5 inf attacking 2 inf, 1 arti? And this is generally the book move for China 1.
Re: Hawaii J1 attack. US can scramble the tac fighter to eliminate bombardment so you are left with 3 inf, 2 art vs 2 inf, 1 fighter, 1 Bomber. At least with Phillipines J1 attack you have the Truk fighters + 1 extra inf to help with the land battle.
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I thought that scrambling was not possible if you ignore the Trp - I stand corrected now ;)
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Not sure why having 5 soakers and a fighter is “risky”. Odds dictate you will score 1.5 hits on your first turn v. 1 hit for Japan in the 3 defender scenario you described. Now you’re down to 1.2 hits v. his .5 hits etc etc. You should retake burma road as china w/5 inf and a fighter v. 2 inf and and arty…as for risk, the reward is 6 more IPCs, killing 3 Japanese ground units, etc.
All you should do J1 in hawaii is send a sub from SZ6 to take out the LC.
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Yeah, we’ve only seen that attack fail once and it was utterly ridiculous luck (including not killing anything on the initial Japanese attack into Yunnan).
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Next time I play Japan I want to do a J1 attack, attacking Phil, Kwangtung and invading Midway.
Why Midway? Essentially if you take it you’ve secured the route from transports from Japan to reach Hawaii (a US DD can block it otherwise). It also gives you an airbase to use on the Hawaiian assault.
To the Phil send 2 transports, one from SZ33, another from SZ6 with 1 ftr and 1 tac from AC on SZ33. The trick is that you need to lose both planes during combat in order for the AC on SZ33 to reach Midway during non-combat movement and join the fleet from SZ6 there.When the US plays it will have to choose the least bad option:
- Reinforce Hawaii with all the planes and 1 inf + 1 arm from the US. This might still not be enough against Japan’s force of 3 ftrs, 3 tac. 4 inf, 3 art and 1 arm (assuming a 3 trn buy for J), 37 points, 14 hits against 3 ftrs, 3 tac, 2 bmr, 3 inf, 1 arm (31 points, 12 hits), so ANZAC needs to send 1 or 2 ftrs to shore up Hawaii’s defenses.
- Or abandon Hawaii. Least likely if the Allied player knows what he’s doing.
Concerning the US fleet, will have to pull it back south to prevent destruction or leave it on SF. The optimal move would be to buy 1 AC and keep it on SF fully loaded with planes (and move all ANZAC fighters to Hawaii).
On J2 it really depends on what the US/ANZAC has done. Assuming US/ANZAC took the moves described above, then J can simply move all loaded transports to the Hawaiian SZ and land at least 3 ftrs and 3 tac there, with a couple of bombers and leaving 1 DD for protection against shore bombardments/blocking US DDs.
The US now has 2 options again, to land the carrier planes to boost defense or pull back from Hawaii. First option it’s 7 ftr, 3 tac, 3 inf, 1 arm, 2 bmr (48 def points, 16 hits) against 6 ftrs, 6 tac, 2 bmr, 4 inf, 3 art, 1 arm (66 atk points, 22 hits) plus additional transports from the Japan.
What do you think?
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I dont think you’ll have the lift capacity to make all of those attack on J1 with any certainty. IIRC, you’ll have 3 TRs total. You’ll need at least 2 for PI for any hope of a non-costly attack. That leaves 1. And if you dont ship anyone else into SE Asia, you’ll quickly be out of troops there too.
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2 transports go to Phillipines, 1 to Midway. Kwangtung is attacked with 3 inf 1 art already present in Kiangsu (or Kiangsi, can’t remember which is the name) - bring 2 of those to Kwangtung and the other 2 to Hunan to hit the Chinese inf there (both backed with plenty of planes).
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Yep, that’ll prolly leave you weak against SE Asia for a while.
Question: What do you have at Midway? The bulk of your fleet? If so, who is suppressing the Brits and/or taking the DEI? I dont think it’s wise to leave all that income untaken. And if I’m the UK and the Japanese are sitting at MIDWAY with the bulk of their fleet? I’m building a TR and taking the DEI (even if it’s suicide runs) Ditto for the Anzacs…they can be in that area on A2 and a Japanese fleet at Midway would be powerless to stop it.
The advantage here is that you pin the US back away from the DEI, but you have to make sure that arent just allowing the ANZACS/Brits in instead.
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