Tech problems

[VonDox]

I am wondering if my group is playing the tech wrong in this game. Here are some issues I am having with the 1936 set-up and tech.

First question: How many roles do you need to make to complete a tech? Is it 4 or 5 roles? Most tech you have to roll at least a 7 or better to move your market to the first stage of tech. Then there is stage 2 and stage 3 and then finally stage COMPLETE. Since you have to make a ROLL to start on STAGE 1 is it reasonable to assume when you reach the COMPLETE stage you have to make one LAST role to get the tech moved OFF off of the chart? So a total of 5 rolls rather than 4?

Also, in the 1936 V3 rules ( Germany and the US have 5 or 4 tech roles to start ) BUT they have to stop advancement when they reach stage 2 tech until they reach a certain time frame (July of 1939). So as an example, the German player is lucky and gets all 5 of his tech to stage 2 by turn 3 of JULY 1937.
Can the German player BEGIN 5 new techs then and then they have even average luck and now they have 10 techs by July of 1939 at stage 2! If you go by the chart they could have 5 techs playable by Jan of 1940 or for sure by Jan. 1941 and then another 5!! So 10 techs on the board by Jan 41!! That seems crazy to me. ( and we had this actually happen )

So, is it that they have to complete a tech BEFORE they start a new one or upgrade a factory to a Major to gain a new tech roll?? So start 5 and then when you hit stage 2 you have to wait until you COMPLETE those techs which will resume in July of 1939 which means the earliest you could bring a tech into play is 1940? Or can you start 5 techs, stop in 1937, then start 5 more techs in 1938, reach 2nd stage in July of 1938 and then start 5 more techs if your that lucky???

Building off of my last paragraph… Just to be clear… once you start a tech line you have to reach completion BEFORE you start another tech line? So in GW36 it’s possible to reach stage 2 in techs for as many rolls as you have. Do you then wait for July of 39 to make rolls to complete those techs making the earliest possible date of completion Jan. 1940?? That seems really fast for a tech advancement like Radar and Jets and rockets?

Lastly, when does TECH come into play? Example, I am Germany and we are playing GW 1936 and I got better than average rolls and make all 5 rolls to level 2 ( I am assuming 5 rolls to move a tech off of the chart to completion) of my techs to stage 2 by Jan 1937. I wait, then in July of 1939 I start again and make my roll in July of 39 and Jan 1940 to the COMPLETE stage then 1 more roll to move it OFF of the COMPLETE column in July of 1940. So does TECH become ACTIVE the minute I make that last roll so on the next action which is PURCHASE units I can then BUY jets, heavy armor, adv. mechs and adv. artillery??? OR since the discovery was made at basically the very beginning of my turn I have to have the tech for 1 FULL turn so that tech can be purchasable and goes into effect on the following turn?? This is how we have played it A&A for a long time. Your tech has to be completed for 1 full turn following your completion before you can start buying units or getting the benefit of the upgrade.

The steps are:
Roll for peacetime income increases
Make tech rolls
Purchase new units and (REPAIR units?) Is the correct stage that damaged facilities get repaired?
Diplomacy
Pay to more units along
Declare lend lease

The weird thing is that the rules state if you repair a factory you GET the technology die roll in the same turn?? So wouldn’t that imply that FACILITY REPAIRS HAVE to take place BEFORE tech rolls?

A lot of nuanced questions here but a group of long time A&A players I game with were really frustrated by the tech in this game and after a few games want to make substantial changes to fix what they see as run away tech.

BTW, when does repairs fit into the order of sequence???

Here is what I think…

1. That you need to make 5 rolls to advance a tech off of the chart to become active. 1 roll to get on the chart, 3 rolls to move it to stage 2, then 3, then COMPLETE then 1 MORE roll to move it OFF the chart to active.

2. You can’t start a new tech until you FINISH a tech that has been already started.

3. Tech becomes ACTIVE 1 full turn AFTER you achieve it. So, if you roll just above average ( 1936 start ) and make your (5th roll). The first chance to buy or have a tech ACTIVE would be January of 1941 ( 2 rolls before July of 39 then in July of 39, Jan 40 and July of 40 3 more to make a total of 5 ). You wait 1 FULL turn before the NEW techs become active but you can START NEW tech rolls on the chart in July of 41. In JULY of 1941 your first 5 techs become active and purchasable units can be paid for and placed on the board at the end of your turn to become active in Jan of 42. You can start 5 NEW techs in July of 41 (Germany) that would then become active in July of 1944 ( assuming you got lucky and made every roll perfect ). So at the most, if Germany made every roll for tech perfectly by that date they would have 10 techs in July of 44. That seems much more reasonable to me than having 10 techs become active as early as July of 41 vs 10 techs active in July of 44. That would mean that unless you use the variable ending rules the chances of getting another 5 more techs before game end would be next to impossible unless you got the war to go to 1948!

Again, thank you for all of your input for those who respond…

[Aldrahill]

@vondox definitely think you’re over complicating tech.

You need four successful rolls to complete a tech - Stage 1, 2, 3 and then complete. You leave the token in the ‘complete’ section to remind all players what you have.

You can roll only one dice per turn per tech. Meaning one roll for advanced arty, one for advanced mech, etc.

You can only get to stage 2 before July 1939, which slows everyone down nicely.

Techs take effect immediately on receiving them, as the rules state. If you got long range aircraft, all planes immediately receive the bonus.

New units unlocked by tech, however, such as advanced arty or heavy tanks, require building separately from the units already present on the board, but can definitely be done on that same turn.

[Trig]

@vondox

Here is how tech works:

The production phase is at the start of the turn. In it, you may do actions in any order you like. This means you may repair a facility, finish a tech, and then build that tech, all in the same turn. There is no “cooldown” turn for tech. Once you have it you have it.
References:
7.6 “If you repair a damaged factory, you get the technology die roll in the same turn.”

Secondly, you roll as die to advance to the next stage, it only takes 4 rolls to get a tech. Once your roundel is on “complete” you have completed the tech.
References:
7.7 “Rolling the indicated value of higher on a d12 results in success and the player places a roundel on that stage of development to show that the stage is complete.”

Major factories are not tied to a specific tech. They just grant one tech roll. This is nowhere even hinted at in the rules. Tech rolls may be used for any tech, with the only criteria that a) a tech may be only rolled for once a turn, and b) you can’t move techs past stage 2 before Jul 39.(section 7.6) You may change up your research as much as you like to suit the changing war. There is no sunk cost.

Thus, as Germany, you start with 4 tech rolls in Jul 36. You roll one dice for wartime income, heavy armor, advanced mechs, and long range aircraft. You hit wartime income and heavy armor. You place a roundel on stage one of each.
Next turn you have upgraded the Med. Factory, and you get 5 rolls. You roll of the above, along with advanced artillery. You hit wartime income and long range aircraft. You move your roundel to stage 2 of wartime income, and stage one of long range aircraft.
Next Turn in Jul 37, you roll for the above, but instead of advanced artillery and wartime income, you roll improved construction and improved factories.
This continues till Jul 39. You have 7 techs currently sitting at stage two. You roll for five of them, and hit wartime income, advanced mechs, and long range aircraft. You move the roundels on those techs to stage 3.
In Jan 40,with good luck you roll and hit long range aircraft and advanced mechs again! You move your roundel to the last box: “completed.” As of this point, you now have long range aircraft and advanced mechs. This turn your planes get the bonus. This turn you may build advanced mechs.

I hope that makes sense.
You may house rule as you like, but this is the official rules.

[VonDox]

@trig Okay… So, based on the replies…

1. It’s 4 rolls to get to a tech. A roll to get on the chart to stage 1, 2 more for stage 2 and 3 and then 1 more for complete. Once you reach COMPLETE you get the tech immediately on that round so you build JETS or get wartime income ALL in that turn.

2. What I am NOT understanding yet is that if you start in 36 and you start 4 techs then have to hold at stage 4 can you start ‘researching’ four MORE techs and get them to stage 2 as well? It would seem to me that once you start a tech, if you stop and switch to another tech you should lose that tech advance you had been working on. Otherwise, Germany and the US run amok in tech advances. The only problem is that Germany gets a HUGE jump on the US on units built and the advantages of having that tech which is a huge game imbalance. I can find no rule in the game that states you have 1 roll per major factory and once you start researching a tech you can’t stop and switch to another tech and keep the advancement level of that previous tech at whatever stage you were at.

[Aldrahill]

@vondox No, you can switch between techs as you like, you don’t HAVE to stick to a tech each time.

The idea is that you spend 36-39 getting to Step 2 on as many different techs that you consider useful, and then you work on completing them.

You can easily get to STep 3 on one tech, but then want to spend your dice elsewhere. Think of it like assigning scientists to working on specific weapon specs and technologies - their notes don’t just get deleted if they get sidetracked and start investigating advanced artillery instead!

Germany and the US are indeed meant to be pretty tech heavy, yes. But that’s the point! The US will peel ahead and be able to lend lease units to Britain and USSR once they’re able to, which helps keep them strong.

The rolls themselves come from your major factories - every Major gives you 1 dice roll, plus Germany gets an extra one for free. USSR also gets one if they sign the Molotov-Ribbontrop pact.

A common move for Germany and USA is to immediately upgrade one factory on turn 1 to get access to an extra roll, as Germany is sitting on a medium factory in their home country.

Also, something I tripped up on, remember that captured Major factories act as a Minor factory, so after taking Paris’s Major, Germany does NOT get an extra tech roll.

[VonDox]

@aldrahill My A&A group has always struggled with TECH and it doesn’t seem any different in GW36. In our last game Germany had 13 of the 16 techs by the end of 1941. While the US had 8 of the 16 techs because of some bad rolls. I guess we might need to make a house rule that once a tech is started you can’t stop researching it unless you want to lose that advance OR you have to move back 1 stage so you can start another tech. So even if you get lucky in make 10 rolls in 2 turns and you want to switch over to a new tech those stage 2 techs drop down to stage 1. Does anyone else have an issue of run-away tech OR is that what everyone expects/wants in this game?

[Aldrahill]

@vondox Assuming Germany upgrades their Medium to a Major straight away, Germany gets a total of 54 tech rolls by the end of 1941.

They’d have to have literally succeeded on 52/54 rolls to end up with 13 out of 16 techs :P If they manage to defy probability like that, I say kudos to those German scientists.

Are you sure they weren’t accidentally adding the French Major to their tech rolls, giving them a total of 6 rolls?

[VonDox]

@aldrahill Yes, our german player was very lucky in our last game… While I, the USSR was not and had only 3 techs on the board by the time he attacked me in 1940. Nothing like changing history when jets, heavy armor, advanced artillery and advanced mechs are pouring over your border. He blasted pass and me drove into the Caucasus and got Turkey and Iran both on his side. The game was over by then since he had upwards of 90 IPPs and Japan had all of the Netherlands Islands and most of China and was over 70 IPPs.

I look at the 1939 set-up charts and none of the nations have tech beyond stage 2 except Japan with heavy BB’s at stage 2. Since many of the tech rolls are 7+ it’s almost 50/50 odds you make it a tech or not. I think my group could solve it’s tech issues by not allowing a nation to research more techs until they finish a tech line. This would slow the introduction of tech (if your playing the 36 opening ) to something similar to what is shown in in the 1939 tech levels for that opening set-up. There is nothing in the rules that state you are allowed to switch to a new tech line if your playing the 36 game and there is nothing to say that you can’t.

[insaneHoshi]

@vondox said in Tech problems:

@aldrahill Yes, our german player was very lucky in our last game

There is lucky and there is a player getting 52/54 rolls which has a chance of 00.0000000000082% occurring.

You guys were probably doing something wrong, and if you weren’t, you shouldn’t be trying to balance it around an exceptional set of luck.

There is nothing in the rules that state you are allowed to switch to a new tech line

The part of the rulebook that says “For each tech roll, select a tech and roll…” (paraphrasing) lack of conditions regarding switching, says you are allowed to switch.

[VonDox]

@insanehoshi Germany upgraded the factory in eastern Germany to a major and then built another factory (major) in East Prussia. So he had a total 6 rolls a turn! ( not all starting in 1936 of course ).

One of the things that attracted me to this game was the tech and how it’s played. What I had not expected/failed to understand was the ability to stop researching a tech line and then start a new one. If agree 100% with you that before I start making house rules we need to play more and we are planning to do the 1939 start this time and with the tech positions as indicated. We will see how it goes… Yes, I did want to throttle the german player because of the luck he was having…

[insaneHoshi]

@vondox Are you playing v2 or v3?

As far as I am aware the 39 setup’s doesn’t have starting techs.

[VonDox]

@insanehoshi It does… For example if you look at the set-up chart for GERMANY in 1939 they start with the following techs ALL at stage 1: Adv mechs, heavy armor, jet fighters, adv. subs, strat rockets and heavy battleships for a total of 6. USA starts 1939 with the following: Heavy bombers, heavy carriers, heavy battleships and attack transports all at stage 1.

I guess, based on the fact that GERMANY has 6/ea tier 1 techs to start off with in 1939 would indicate that you CAN STOP researching 1 tech line and start another.

I have toyed around with the idea that no tech can NOT go beyond tier 1 (July 1939) instead of tier 2 in the 1936 scenario. So you could have, maybe, if you were Germany or the US 10 or 12 tier 1 techs in 1939 if you got slightly above tech rolls. This would mean the soonest techs could hit the game if you got all 3 rolls would be July of 1940… Which would mean the first TECH/advanced units wouldn’t hit the board ( moveable ) until Jan of 41. To me that is more reasonable

[insaneHoshi]

@vondox I see now, ty.

[Trig]

@vondox Just a note, Germany can’t build majors in East Prussia. It isn’t German Home country.
That said, if you have 6 factories, you will be getting absurd amounts of tech. But 6 is also overkill on the most part. You usually can get what you want with 5 at most. I don’t see many nations going above 3 or so. Maybe 4 for the UK and 5 for Germany, US and USSR.

[VonDox]

@trig Wow… you’re right… I guess I should have double checked that when they were building I just assumed they read were reading the sheets. I just looked at the Japanese sheet as well and the minor factory in REHA is not in home territory as well… BIG MISS… Well, it was our first full game play through and for some of the others they didn’t even get a chance to review the rules before they arrived.

[TheVeteran]

@vondox no issue with tech in this game at all ever