Which country is the hardest….

[zosima]

what i meant “immediate” is that the three main allied areas of productions (i.e. capital) are all a stones throw away from berlin.  So while it may take 2 turns, they can get to germany, or at least german territory that is worth some IPCs (western europe, souther europe)

[rjclayton]

True, but after the first few turns Japan’s “main” area of production (their new ICs on the mainland) are all a stone’s throw away from Moscow too.

Anyway, this debate is kinda getting old with just two participants  :-P

[losttribe04]

I have come to realize more and more since I have been on this site that there are to many variables to make a general statement like “witch country is the hardest” You not only have to include the aspects of each country but also each player. Some players may be better at tactics and outrival others as Germany others good at statistics and probability and do well conserving Russian forces wile still others talents may shine in economics and excel as the US.

So it’s hard to say because there is no true answer.  8-)

-LT04

[zosima]

true….but broad questions leave room for debate…

[losttribe04]

Touché old bean, touché

-LT04

[ankmcfly]

Here’s a vote Germany. It is usually the main target of all 3 allies. Unlike Russia, it can count on very little help from it’s teammate.
It has to maintain 3 fronts continuously, and while doing so, push the eastern front away from it’s supply lines. Because of it’s location, it’s purchase decisions are more difficult than Russia’s.

Russia does not buy ships, nor does it have consider if it needs them, so Russia  has 4 purchase options (INF,ARM,ART,FIG) I see no need for a Russain Bomber, but make it 5 if you must. Germany may need those high dollar ships, and a wrong puchase or bad dice can waste tons of IPCs quickly. Lastly, even when boxed in, Russia can expect her partners to be nipping at Germany’s heels.
Once Germany is boxed in, it’s typically over.

[rjclayton]

Yeah, I would agree that Germany is the hardest of the 5 powers to play.

But the thread was about which capital was harder to hold, and I still think Moscow is.

[Bashir]

Wich high dollar ships are you talking about nub? Germany doesn’t buy ships!

[zosima]

@rjclayton:

Yeah, I would agree that Germany is the hardest of the 5 powers to play.

But the thread was about which capital was harder to hold, and I still think Moscow is.

I would argue that Germany is BOTH the hardest to play and Hardest capital to hold.

[ankmcfly]

@Bashir:

Wich high dollar ships are you talking about nub? Germany doesn’t buy ships!

Re-read what is said. (MAY NEED)
A blanket statement about what Germany buys is funny. I’ve only been on this forum for a few weeks and I
have seen people posting all over the place about Germany buying ships, and which ones make sense.
And they are people who are not (nubs?) noobs like me (who has played A&A since the first edtion came out.)
BTW - How could Germany ever take UK Capital without ships? I know, they could take the Chunnel!

[ankmcfly]

@zosima:

@rjclayton:

Yeah, I would agree that Germany is the hardest of the 5 powers to play.

But the thread was about which capital was harder to hold, and I still think Moscow is.

I would argue that Germany is BOTH the hardest to play and Hardest capital to hold.

AGREED.

[rjclayton]

When you say the Geman capital is harder to keep, are you disagree with the below analysis?  What part do you disagree with?

@rjclayton:

I would say Russia, because proven strats have been developed where the axis either go after Germany first or Japan first (KGF/KJF), but pretty much every Allied strat involves Taking down Russia first.

If we assume Axis win 50% and Allies win 50%, then the breakdown of who loses their capital first should look something like this:
Russia - 49%
Germany - 45%
Japan - 5%
UK - 1%
USA - 0%

Blanket statements like “Germany doesn’t buy ships” are funny, and can always be proven wrong by some wacky buy, but in this case I think a statement like this is reasonably accurate.  (A statement that Russia doesn’t buy ships could also be proven wrong!)  If you have been reading about German naval buys on these forums, perhaps you were reading in the revised threads?  Since I don’t remember any threads like that in this classic area.  I agree with Bashir that any German naval buy in classic is a bad idea.

[zosima]

@ankmcfly:

@Bashir:

Wich high dollar ships are you talking about nub? Germany doesn’t buy ships!

Re-read what is said. (MAY NEED)
A blanket statement about what Germany buys is funny. I’ve only been on this forum for a few weeks and I
have seen people posting all over the place about Germany buying ships, and which ones make sense.
And they are people who are not (nubs?) noobs like me (who has played A&A since the first edtion came out.)
BTW - How could Germany ever take UK Capital without ships? I know, they could take the Chunnel!

My belief is that unless the axis can take out russia, the game is lost.  But russia is easy to play (IMO) and the US and UK SHOULD be able to take down germany and japan.

[rjclayton]

So Zosima, you think that the allies should win every time?  I am with you there is you play without a bid.  If you play with a bid I wonder why the allies would still win every time?  Are you bidding too low for the axis?

[zosima]

my conclusion is this…
Even with a bid in the 15-20 range, i think the allies should win EVERY time.  Here is my thinking on why…
IPC counts from the get go…
USSR = 24 + UK = 30 + US= 36
this means a total IPC of 90

GR = 32 + JP25 = 57.

so, hypothetically even if germany is able to get another 12 IPC and japan another12 (these are rough guesses)
the the total would be 81 and 66.

with russia buying nothing but infantry the should be able to hold out for awhile, even with germany and japan pressuring.
Aperica, using my strategy, is bombing germany strategically so germany isnt getting near the 45 IPC’s they COULD be getting.  They are getting far less.  (very often they end up collecting in the 12-19 range because of all my bombers.
And then its just a matter of time.  Pressure + time = allied victory.

[rjclayton]

So why would you or your opponent bid in the 12-19 range for axis knowing that you are going to get smoked?  On this board I’ve only seen bids in the 21-26 range.  If your group bid in this range, do you think the axis would fare better?

[DarthMaximus]

I think Germany is the hardest with Russia being a close second.

I think Germany is the hardest because even with a large bid, if you have one screw-up or bad roll it can really cost you, whereas if Russia has a bad roll it is a bit easier for the UK and US to go into full protection mode of Russia then it would be for Japan to help Germany.

Germany has a lot of first rd “must” attacks that a bid may not help, they have to kill the Brit fleet, take out the Gib BB, possibly kill the sub in the Med, possbily take out the UK trn off Ecan, and take out Egy, and that ignores Europe.  Even with a PAfr bid that is a lot of battles that can possibly go wrong.

Russia worst case, can play extremely defensive early on and still be quite a powerful force mid game.

It is always cheaper and easier to defend, thus the pressure is always on the Axis to do something and shift the momentum early on so you can make your move sometime in rd 4-8, but that is easier said then done and any delay or set back can be costly.

[ankmcfly]

Blanket statements like “Germany doesn’t buy ships” are funny, and can always be proven wrong by some wacky buy, but in this case I think a statement like this is reasonably accurate.  (A statement that Russia doesn’t buy ships could also be proven wrong!)  If you have been reading about German naval buys on these forums, perhaps you were reading in the revised threads?  Since I don’t remember any threads like that in this classic area.  I agree with Bashir that any German naval buy in classic is a bad idea.

Yes, it was most likely revised threads. I’ve seen Germany buy ships for the Med in Classic also with the idea of keeping Africa longer or to ward of Africa landings. (To varying degree of success, I might add.) But, that option is certainly more viable than Russia buying ever ships. I’ll stick with Germany being the hardest to keep, regardless.

[rjclayton]

@DarthMaximus:

I think Germany is the hardest with Russia being a close second.

To play, or to keep their capital?

[zosima]

@rjclayton:

So why would you or your opponent bid in the 12-19 range for axis knowing that you are going to get smoked?  On this board I’ve only seen bids in the 21-26 range.  If your group bid in this range, do you think the axis would fare better?

well, i think for me and my group of players, its the challenge of playing the axis.  And they dont ALWYS get “smoked”.  Its just more then likely.