In all this math calculating air vs boats one must also consider that ftrs/bmbs are much more versatile than CVs and DDs. Having the latter in the Baltic will not do good on the Eastern front, whereas the air units could be relocated to africa, eastern front or attacking europe supporting amphibious landings.

That’s way air beats boats IMO. Of course the allies (+ japan) needs escorts for the transports, but germany doesn’t need transports and therefore has no incentive really to buy navy, other than it being fun to try to win with an implemented naval strategy. I certainly would love to try.

@Lynxes:

How did you reach that conclusion Lynxes?

I’m still not completely happy about the sub rules and still think they are a bit too hampered in their use. I think subs should be able to ignore even DDs when moving. In that way, it won’t be able to block German subs based in the Baltic Sea from attacking an invading fleet in the English channel just by placing one DD in the North Sea. As it is now you have to use Italian air to attack the DD block, and if USA sends in a blocking DD you’re screwed, unless you play the '42 scenario and use Japanese air!

But letting aircraft hit subs without destroyers will make subs utterly useless. At least now your subs can avoid combat in some instances and you can also use subs to make the opponent make choices of losses to take, i.e. if I take my last DD as a hit I will be facing surprise strikes. Your idea of using subs as fodder is misguided since that’s the role that destroyers are there for in this game, now that their cost is reduced!

I catch your point here, but keep in mind that air could only attack subs with DDs since without them the sub could submerge before air units fire. Subs as fodder would not be useless IMO, but I can see that it’s covered well by the DDs. I also agree that it’s frustrating that a single DD can block all your subs movement. What if one implemented a 50% chance of being undetected? Rolling one die pr sub passing a destroyer: 1-3 undetected, move ok. 4-6 detected, move blocked… This could go for both CM and NCM. I mean a destroyer couldn’t prevent a sub from moving but it could certainly detect and kill it… Would be interesting to play test this. Wouldn’t let the allies so boldly block a sea zone with a DD…

True enough, it should possibly be put under another thread.

There might be a need for a updated official rule set for AA anniversary, say if there’s no solution for plane vs air balance in the frame of todays rules.

Add only fighters can attack sea units and we could really have some great naval battles…

I must say that I am puzzled over the strong reactions on my proposal. Especially the part about it being incomprehensible. Subs can be hit by aircraft. period. All other sub rules stays unchanged. I think they have done a good job fixing sub rules, making them more clear regadring submerging, when they fire etc. Making subs being able to take aircraft hits doesn’t ruin all that. How did you reach that conclusion Lynxes?

What do we accomplish by this? We give fleets a better chance versus air which will make it more viable to buy. Take Germany for example. Buy a CV in BAL, land 2 FTrs, coupled it with some fodder-subs. The allies will hesitate to attack them with only air units, AND they will hesitate to bring their fleet into a seazone in reach of the german wolfpack, which together with the luftwaffe would pose a serious threat to the allied fleets. A normandy landing would be more difficult to accomplish. What we possibly could have here is a real “war of the atlantic” with larger possibilites for Germany to buy fleet. That could give us more fun IMO.

For sure, this would need to be playtested properly before we could conclude. In any case I hope to see some amendment that could balance out sea vs air a bit

I agree with the last comment here, subs should be able to defend against lone trps. Actually that would be more conssistent, as the trp must always be escorted, in defense and offense.

I also think a good rule change ( ot just to make things more realistic) would be to let airplanes hit subs. The sub would still be able to dive before aircraft fire if it chooses so (if DDs not present). In other words sub could be picked as cannon fodder in a bigger sea battle involving air units. It would make the power with a lot of air units think twice before attacking fleets and making fleets more worthwhile to build. (discussed under another thread)

Interesting debates going on here guys. IMO A small rule amendment allowing air units to hit subs would improve things. The subs would still have the ability to dive (unless a DDs present) before aircrafts fire or they could stay and be chosen as casulties. In that way you could trade subs for fighters as mentioned earlier here. That would be expensive for an attacker using only air units. A defending fleet consisting of CVs with fighters backed with some subs and possibly also a BB would be a hard nut to crack for an airforce.

As for realism, air units were are serious threat to uboat warfare, it’s a very strange rule as it is now that they can’t hit them at all.