@Imperious-Leader
Really like your map that you have put together here. I’m thinking of the Phase 1 Final Map with Malta and Azores. The time is much appreciated!

Two questions:

1. When we go to have them printed, can we scale them a little smaller than the files are intended or will this cause issues to your knowledge.

2. Help me understand why you add Malta and Azores. They are not on the original game board. You have also chosen to add names to a number of islands, particularly around the boot of Italy, but also Ceylon that make them seem like you can land units there, but then only Malta has a symbol signifying it is a country that can be occupied.

Thanks!

Here are a few thoughts.

I find some of the balance issues seem to be related to the map as much, if not more to the OOB set up.  In most games by the end of round 1, Germany is making more IPCs than the US and Japan more than UK.  So adding a few pieces to the board don’t fix this.  The Axis already have a crap ton of stuff, but since their economy often can be bigger than the Allies quickly then it is almost insurmountable.  One example of this is (and one of my biggest peeves about the game), if the UK builds up a navy to hit Germany, no matter how big the navy is, you can only put 8 units against Germany b/c your production is so limited.  Even if those unites are the 4 Inf and 4 Arty = 28 IPC.

Several immediate problems are evident:

1. effectively that is the British economy unless something in the pacific is going extremely well.
2. With this minimum build in the mainland to pressure Germany, you cannot defend India.  The economic power is simply not there.  Even if you are holding ALL of your territory and have Scandinavia (+3) you would be at 34.  So you have 6 IPC to put in India… this is not enough.
3. Even when the US is manhandling Japan and you are solid in India, your 28 IPC/8 units is a joke agains Germany who is at 40+ without even making ground against Russia.  You land and you get obliterated if you even have surviving units.

So my thought process is what if you start the Britain at 10 instead of 8 on the mainland, and maybe even India at 4 instead of 3?  It gives you the ability to actually build more units at either location and either hold India or actually do more to Germany.  And still maybe not even enough b/c with an extra 3 IPC of economy you only get 1 more Inf.  Not sure where to go form there.  Bump Canada 1 IPC also just to give more underlying economy that is not going to get whisked away immediately.

Circling back to my first point - if the US/UK economy is less than the respective Axis they are faced with by the end of round 1 that is a fundamental issue that needs to be addressed.  The Axis should be able to get there, but not by taking a few territories that are givens in the first move of the game.  There are a lot of possibilities here that could be explored.  Maybe like 1941, Russia’s Eastern most territories are worth nothing so Japan cannot gain as fast.  Similar with 1-2 China territories for the US?  Too much obviously would throw things in the other direction, but I think there is something to this.

One other thing regarding the map and India.  If there was one extra sea zone for Japan traverse before they drop the mother load against India it would be a game changer.  I’m thinking SZ 36 or 61.  What if you cut one or the other in half so Japan could not land stuff directly from the mainland in Burma in a single move or get their navy there to devastate India so quickly?  These Ideas would make India more defensible and give more flexibility to the Allies IMO.  I do however wonder if this extra season would be too powerful for the Allies.

Anyway, some thoughts.  Any ideas pro or con?  I’d love to dialogue.

I agree with Argothair that there are issues with this version that need tweaking. While Larry Harris’s “patch” used for the tournament set up does not address all of these, I think it makes the game much more balanced.

I can only speak to the stats I have seen, but if I recall correctly - in the 8 GenCon tournament games I have played in using the new setup and the games went 6 Allied victories vs 2 Axis Victories.

The highest bid the Allies received in any of the games with the new set up was 8 (although I know it was higher in some games, at least still 12). The unit placement i saw varied from the sub for Britain off India to artillery & infantry in Caucasus. I was surprised how good it was for Russia with just having 2 extra infantry in the first round.

I believe Greg Smorey who runs the tournaments keeps specific stats on bids and victories since the change in the setup if more details helps.

@imperious-leader Wonderful! Thanks a ton!!

@imperious-leader I was looking for a map that is closer to the out of the box AA50 map that dracolich refers to above, but I don’t see a link. So a map with no Azores, Malta, Polesti, Cairo VC, and Japan symbol in China.

@imperious-leader Old post, but it is pinned.

Sorry if I’m missing it, but was there ever a final of the OOB map as discussed by dracolich?

Thanks!

This is really good. Anyway I can get one?!

I agree with Argothair that there are issues with this version that need tweaking. While Larry Harris’s “patch” used for the tournament set up does not address all of these, I think it makes the game much more balanced.

I can only speak to the stats I have seen, but if I recall correctly - in the 8 GenCon tournament games I have played in using the new setup and the games went 6 Allied victories vs 2 Axis Victories.

The highest bid the Allies received in any of the games with the new set up was 8 (although I know it was higher in some games, at least still 12). The unit placement i saw varied from the sub for Britain off India to artillery & infantry in Caucasus. I was surprised how good it was for Russia with just having 2 extra infantry in the first round.

I believe Greg Smorey who runs the tournaments keeps specific stats on bids and victories since the change in the setup if more details helps.

@dracolich
Thanks for working on the changes. Did you post the link or did I miss it?

@SS-GEN
I agree cruisers are over priced, but it seems some of the options laid out are nuclear and change a LOT. I agree that one change can create a domino effect, but not if you make a small change. Here are a few suggestions.

What about giving Cruisers ONE of the following:

1. Just a little bit cheaper. 11 or maybe 10 IPC. 10 probably gets them too close to destroyers, but given subs are so cheap I don’t think it makes Destroyers irrelevant.
2. Make Cruisers (and Battleships) bombard ability like a sub’s sneak attack. Defending land units don’t get to return fire. This is a nice perk, but IMO not over powered. Maybe it does not apply to air casualties.
3. Cruisers (and agains you probably have to do the same for Battleships) bombard ability go for 2 rounds instead of just the first.

I like buffing the bombard ability of Cruisers as it is what makes them different - cheaper way that a Battleship to get a 3/3 in the water and hit the coast for invasions. Just some thoughts as I have not tried any of these.

@Imperious-Leader
Really like your map that you have put together here. I’m thinking of the Phase 1 Final Map with Malta and Azores. The time is much appreciated!

Two questions:

1. When we go to have them printed, can we scale them a little smaller than the files are intended or will this cause issues to your knowledge.

2. Help me understand why you add Malta and Azores. They are not on the original game board. You have also chosen to add names to a number of islands, particularly around the boot of Italy, but also Ceylon that make them seem like you can land units there, but then only Malta has a symbol signifying it is a country that can be occupied.

Thanks!

Help me understand all - what is the obsession with using chips instead of the good old paper money?  Is it the fear someone is going to grab an extra 5 or 10 and since it is a stack of paper money the other team will not notice?

I think the work on these is amazing!  I just grew up on the paper money and think I’d have a hard time transitioning.

Thanks for the thoughts - a lot of good points.  :-)

Just to clarify - I realize I inverted this later in my first post, but I meant Germany vs US economy and UK vs Japan.  So approximates for turn 1: Germany at $45/US $39 and assume a UK hold at $30/Japan $34.  I know this doesn’t factor Russia, but to everyone’s point that is a quick downhill run.  Just trying to simply illustrate the disparity before getting to the Russian economy and the mass of Axis units!

Appreciate the feedback!