Hell, we need to help out that entire area of East Africa. Somalia, Ethiopia, and Sudan are 3 reasons why terrorism exists. Dictators, Terrorists, and Drug Dealers all prosper in poverty. And this region has enough poverty to go around.
American has already poured billions of dollars in food, medical, and other supplies being sent to Africa. More often then not it ends up in the hands of the wrong people or uttlerly wasted. It is easy to say help out the “needy,” but without a clear plan and a course of action these promises are worthless. Investment is needed, but in the hands of the right people. The question is what plan will work best?
We have the power, and the responsiblity, as the #1 nation in the world, to help other nations survive and prosper.
Ha, try saying that to a capitalistic country, the cause of such extreme poverty in Africa… :-?
Right. And as Kurt Vonnegut has pointed out, it is hard to feel urgent concern for the starving masses across the sea when you just had a really nice, filling meal.
You know, if police robots were sent here by superintelligent types from across the Galaxy (see “The Day the Earth Stood Still”) these powerful, mute robots wouldn’t give a sht about anybody’s religions or fanaticisms, etc. They would issue commands to lay down arms, and issue deadlines.
Or else.
That’s it.
We would have to quickly figure out ways to live together.
The freakin robots would not take down names, numbers, or hear stories about who hit who first and whose gd said to do this or not that but only under the following circumstances, etc.When is this human species gonna grow up awreddy bruddas!?
Since the robots have yet to land, we can only look into the mirror – namely, the faces of our children!
We owe it to these little heroes to stop preaching, teaching, wishing and acting hate. It’s all about getting off our duffs and doing good.
And fast.
And keeping at it.In the meantime, we inherit from our blessed (and otherwise) ancestors this current mess. What these folks in wartorn lands need to learn is the same thing: live together. To heal. And when they cannot get there on their own, then we do have to march in, if “we” are the organizations (nations, leagues, federations, clubs, armies, tribes) who have the superior wherewithal. We have to, morally – and even for our own selfish good, long-term. We have to hose them down, send them to neutral corners, get em talking again – instead of killing.
But let’s not be simplistic about the choices. There are plenty of reasons smart people, sensitive people, can differ on what to do about Iraq, for example. And how to go about it. Military solutions are a narrow channel approach. And no seasoned military commander would ever advocate a 100-percent military solution to the kinds of problems we are talking about. By definition there are political, economic, and oh all right spiritual components to human strife. We have to play hard but play fair.
Getting back to the robots, they wouldn’t wonder about any of this. Not in the job description.
Their masters might spend a few minutes pondering how human belief structures and habits of thought ever got so funky and twisted and absurd and crusty. But these programmers of the robots would ultimately be concerned only with results. Peace & quiet among the communities of the Galaxy.
Now, there is an opening here for someone to advocate world dictatorship and a single religion or some such nonsense as the only way to keep the robots from vaporizing us – “everybody form a line, repeat after me, etc. and nobody gets hurt.” Just as there is an opening for someone to advocate world democracy and tolerance and celebration of our differences, and nonviolent conflict resolution, and healing.Hope our kids are ready, got their thang together when the robots show up.
And when the filibustering is over, what are the answers? :-?
TG - while i agree w/ your first statement, your second one is far too simplistic. There are far too many reasons for the poverty in Africa, and to simply say “oh, its the fault of capitalistic countries” robs a lot of people of their responsibility. It also doesn’t work. It does not make it rain more “conveniently” in drought areas, it does not undo centuries of imperialism as well as the subsequent backlash occurring in such countries as Zimbabwe, Angola, Mozambique, South Africa, etc. It does not end skirmishs and wars between countries that seem to long have forgotten the reasons for continued violence (Ethiopia and Eritria) - the reason for increasing numbers of armed children. Despite the best efforts of missionaries, the Peace Corps, the UN and various other NGO’s and GO’s there is not nearly enough education about everything from agriculture to birth control. Throw in centuries of “denominationalism” - warring between various religious sects within one religion etc, and it becomes much more complicated then “well, the west is selling weapons and not pulling its weight”. Africa is relatively untouched by the US it seems (particularly relative to Latin and South America, the Middle East and South Pacific).
There are far too many reasons for the poverty in Africa, and to simply say “oh, its the fault of capitalistic countries” robs a lot of people of their responsibility
Of course I could give a much more indepth reply, but knowing me, is there really any need for one? Were any of these countries given proper time for developement by themselves in the face of Imperialistic exploitation? How can you encourage economic investment where the economic profits are often negative? Why produce when your supply is below your variable cost? :-?
@city:
If you honestly think that thousands of Christians don’t die annually in Muslim countries, your head is buried in the sand. … Those foreign governments hunt down and seek out ALL other religions beside Islam. Two of my family friends, Shaun and Ahmal S--------, are Christian missionaries in a country I can’t mention. They have told us in letters that if they are discovered, they will be beheaded…
Being a christian and being a missionary is two different things.
I don’t know where you get your information from, but i suspect that these thousands of christians die because they are christians.
I also supsect that all other religions are hunted down, the oil exporting countries at least have a lot of corporations from christian countries sitting there, with the ver much needed engineers etc., there are quite some tourists in these countries. I know these are no permanent residents, but it still is in conflict with what you say.
For missionaries: well, it should be well known that it is a dangerous job in islamic countries. I don’t agree with how they are treated, but i don’t see any sense in missionaric work either.
CC, ZZZ, Yanny and Fin already wrote what i would have added here.
We have not done enough to help East Africa. Its the whole “Give a man to fish, you feed him for a day, Teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime”.
We need to build educational, agricultural, and other Government infrastructure up in these countries to solve the problem. The reason Africa is in such bad condition is because of us, the Western Imperialists. We exploited them for our own needs, and left a bad legacy on the continent. We should at least try to turn that legacy into a positive one.
My dad volunteered with Frontier College back in the 60’s. I think they did a lot of the infrastructure work that you’re talking about Yanny - building hospitals and schools, water supplies, etc. I don’t know where they’ve all been - i know my dad was posted to Nigeria . . . .
And Nigeria is a lot better off because of the facilities we (and the oil companies) have built there. However, in East Africa, all we’ve done is send food. And most of the time, this food doesn’t get into the hands of the people, because there is no organized Government, and a gang of thugs with guns take the food and sell it for their own benefit.
Exactly.
“Fight those who do not believe in God and the Last Day”
-Koran
WIthin a few decades of it’s inception, Islam fought Persia, Byzantium, Mesopotamia, and Egypt, and fought 3 civil wars.
The major clerics in citites like Medina are often calling for the destruction of Jews, Hindus, and Christians.
The Koran calls the Jews Christ Killers.
“Fight those who do not believe in God and the Last Day”
I’ve also seen examples (though I don’t have a Koran in front of me) of quotes like “Accept Christians and Jews as your brothers, for they originate from the same idea”. Thats not a direct quote, its close, but if I can find the exact script, I’ll change it.
WIthin a few decades of it’s inception, Islam fought Persia, Byzantium, Mesopotamia, and Egypt, and fought 3 civil wars.
No, Islaam spread to Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Persia. The Turks were fighting the Byzantines for centuries, don’t know much about the 3 civil wars.
The major clerics in citites like Medina are often calling for the destruction of Jews, Hindus, and Christians.
These are just yahoos from one side. We have radical Christians from the south calling for us to round up Muslims and place them in “Interment Camps”.
The Koran calls the Jews Christ Killers.
It also calls Jews brothers. And hell, the Jews did kill Jesus. Christ is a prophet to Muslims. So are several Jewish figures.
The problem is that religion is so inflexible. Even if the Koran said not too, shouldn’t common humanity suggest you still treat Jews and Christians (and all humans) as brothers? :-?
@TG:
The problem is that religion is so inflexible. Even if the Koran said not too, shouldn’t common humanity suggest you still treat Jews and Christians (and all humans) as brothers? :-?
amen brother! :D
@TG:
The problem is that religion is so inflexible. Even if the Koran said not too, shouldn’t common humanity suggest you still treat Jews and Christians (and all humans) as brothers? :-?
True, TG.
That is another of my problems with any religion…
There comes a time even when even we have to amend our own Constitution to keep up with the times. :)
No, Islaam spread to Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Persia. The Turks were fighting the Byzantines for centuries, don’t know much about the 3 civil wars.
Study your Middle Eastern History. Islam spread by FORCE from the areas conquered by Mohammad to the rest of Arabia, Mesopotamia, Eqypt, Cyrnecia, Eastern Anatolia, Syria, Iran, and central Asia.
The Byzantines were fighting the PERSIANS, not the Turks, at least not in the seventh century. The Turks didn’t leave central asia until the eleventh century.
These are just yahoos from one side. We have radical Christians from the south calling for us to round up Muslims and place them in “Interment Camps”.
This is the equivalent of the Pope and the council of Southern Baptists calling for the forced conversion of the Arabs. Yahoos, Yanny?
Study your Middle Eastern History. Islam spread by FORCE from the areas conquered by Mohammad to the rest of Arabia, Mesopotamia, Eqypt, Cyrnecia, Eastern Anatolia, Syria, Iran, and central Asia.
Yes and no. It spread through force by conversion of non-jews/christians/zoroastrians. These three groups were left more or less alone. And where do you put central asia, that would be interesting to know since you yourself brought up that we speak about the seventh century, and not the eleventh…
““And when the filibustering is over, what are the answers?””
Well, TG, I agree talk is cheap. As for action, reckon each of us does what best suits our abilities and opportunities. Lead by example, etc. The guiding answer for me is to ask whether such and such an action (individual, group, national, etc.) provides more healing than hurt, and does it engender additional healing or simply eat away resources that could be better applied elsewhere. Triage, as they call it.
On the original theme of this thread, that a particular religion isnt as bad as its current and historical press might indicate, well I see the yin and yang in each of the “big faiths” – each has provided comfort and inspiration to multitudes, and each has been used to foment hate and destruction upon multitudes. Among both the fundamentalist Christians and the fundamentalist Muslims of today, one thing is held in common: the wish to send us all back to the authoritarian, intolerant, anti-intellect and anti-liberty setup of medieval times – although in great irony, both types also wish to obtain, hold and utilize all the fruits of democracy, tolerance, intellect and liberty (such as modern telecommunications, financial instruments, advanced weapons, etc.) in order to achieve this end.
Taking a long view, the ideology doesn’t matter to a starving kid. The protein does. How much our government or social club or religion should shell out to save these kids from starving is a vital question, as are the related foreign policy issues others have discussed above. Most participants in this forum seem to live within the lands where food is abundant, as are weapons and financial resources. It would be wise for us to use these resources to encourage benign stability and local self-determination and conflict resolution. It’s a case-by-case situation, and you have to have reliable people on the ground. If you find Muslims or animists or Christians or Communists or Hindus are the most trustworthy locals in a given situation, better work with em. I would stipulate that they aren’t being favored because of their faith, but because of their character.
There are reasons I started this topic.
I live in New Jersey. We have more Muslims in our state than any other state in the union. I know quite a few, some of you may remember the tragic death of a good friend of mine (and fellow Boy Scout) last year to an IDF gun.
Simply enough, Muslims are seen as scapegoats in this country. After 9/11, a beautiful mosque in Paterson, NJ, was desecrated. I had never seen an ounce of grafitee on the building until 9/11. In the weeks after, and still today, there are countless racial slurs spraypainted on the wall. The stained glass windows were stoned and destroyed. I believe it even was robbed.
This is just one of countless inicidents in New Jersey. There are almost daily protests from crazy Christians outside the American Muslim society in Paramus. People have gone to court to stop their colleges from requiring the Koran to be read, while the Bible and Old Testament are required for similar majors. People have a huge distaste for the Islaamic Religion, and blame it for 9/11. As I have said in this thread, that is not the case.
You say its All talk and No Game. For many this may be, but I know I spend a lot of my time helping out in a food kitchen, and generally doing service work with the Boy Scouts. I can’t vote yet, but when I am old enough I certainly would vote for a candidate who supports my political views.
Straight ahead, Yanny.
The world needs fewer scapegoats and scapegoaters, and more individuals willing to stand up, take responsibility for their community. Keep lending that hand and studying the issues… maybe that politician will someday turn out to be you.
