The Existence of God

#1; Maybe that what he think, but he never said he think Human were god, just that we are doing thing reserve to “god”. There is a very big distinction.

#2; In term of humility, no theist can match most Atheist.

And i feel sorry too for christian, those who believe in mythological being without using their reason.

@FinsterniS:

#1; Maybe that what he think, but he never said he think Human were god, just that we are doing thing reserve to “god”. There is a very big distinction.

#2; In term of humility, no theist can match most Atheist.

And i feel sorry too for christian, those who believe in mythological being without using their reason.

there are too many things that people believe in that there is no “reasoning” for.
I’m certain that you are one of them. Of course of these things a 2000 year old event may not be one of them, but there are things you believe in with little reason for it.

That is a very simple counter-argument… i don’t believe something because it pleased me, i would be still christian. I don’t accept conclusion without knowledge of the argumentation.

It’s got nothing to do with having “proof” or “evidence” or “reason.”

Have you ever heard of “faith?”

If the fact that the sky is blue causes me to be subject to a God, then I will tell myself and others that it is green until I believe it. “Now I am comfortable.” And then I think… “If the sky is green, will that tree over there now subject me to God?”

@FinsterniS:

That is a very simple counter-argument… i don’t believe something because it pleased me, i would be still christian. I don’t accept conclusion without knowledge of the argumentation.

Then why don’t you find out the arguement? Does Christianity not encourage you to use your logic and reason to question even the very basis of the religion?

@EmuGod:

@FinsterniS:

That is a very simple counter-argument… i don’t believe something because it pleased me, i would be still christian. I don’t accept conclusion without knowledge of the argumentation.

Then why don’t you find out the arguement? Does Christianity not encourage you to use your logic and reason to question even the very basis of the religion?

No, it want you to be “faithful”, in brief to be blind to reason. Anyway i did’nt find god, i only find out lies.

@FinsterniS:

@EmuGod:

@FinsterniS:

That is a very simple counter-argument… i don’t believe something because it pleased me, i would be still christian. I don’t accept conclusion without knowledge of the argumentation.

Then why don’t you find out the arguement? Does Christianity not encourage you to use your logic and reason to question even the very basis of the religion?

No, it want you to be “faithful”, in brief to be blind to reason. Anyway i did’nt find god, i only find out lies.

I guess you learn something knew every day. That’s another difference I guess between Judaism and Christianity, It’s fascinating how Christianity has evolved so differently from Judaism, which it is based on. Comparitive religion is interesting, IMO.

@EmuGod:

@FinsterniS:

@EmuGod:

@FinsterniS:

That is a very simple counter-argument… i don’t believe something because it pleased me, i would be still christian. I don’t accept conclusion without knowledge of the argumentation.

Then why don’t you find out the arguement? Does Christianity not encourage you to use your logic and reason to question even the very basis of the religion?

No, it want you to be “faithful”, in brief to be blind to reason. Anyway i did’nt find god, i only find out lies.

I guess you learn something knew every day. That’s another difference I guess between Judaism and Christianity, It’s fascinating how Christianity has evolved so differently from Judaism, which it is based on. Comparitive religion is interesting, IMO.

“based on”? no, i don’t think that’s quite right. That’s like saying that Mennonitism is “based on” Catholicism. Certainly Judaism is the oak that dropped the accorn, and i believe in the old testament (and what i’ve read of the Talmud, heard from Martin Buber, etc.), but i would not quite say that Christianity is based on anything other than the Teachings and life of Jesus Christ.

Well christianism is very similar on some aspect to Judaism, good, evil, monotheist, heaven, hell, rigid laws from a god… It is clearly based on Judaism… and some part of judaism were taken from the egyptian (not as much as with the Christian from Judaism, but still).

That is a very simple counter-argument… i don’t believe something because it pleased me, i would be still christian. I don’t accept conclusion without knowledge of the argumentation.

I would have to agree with FS. Unless Christianity can come up with a knowledgeable and reasonable argumentation in favor of, it becomes increasingly difficult to accept it. That is when Christianity relies more on faith than in science and logic. What has blind faith accomplished? Under Christianity, God is viewed as merciful and all-loving, compassionate and caring towards humanity, that the Bible is the source of God’s word, God wants all humans to be saved, and a necessary condition for being saved is becoming aware of the word of God and accepting it. Then why would a merciful God, a God who wants all humans to be saved, not provide clear and unambiguous information about His word to humans when having this information is necessary for salvation? Yet, as we know, countless millions of people down through history have not been exposed to the teaching of the Bible. Even today there are millions of people who either remain completely ignorant of the Christian message or seriously lack in their “Christian education.” One would expect that if God were rational, He would have arranged things in such a way that there would more believers (ex God could have spoken from the Heavens in all known languages so that no human could doubt His existence and His message). It is grossly unfair to punish people for not believing in God either because they have not been exposed to His teachings or because of errors of reasoning.

@TG:

That is a very simple counter-argument… i don’t believe something because it pleased me, i would be still christian. I don’t accept conclusion without knowledge of the argumentation.

I would have to agree with FS. Unless Christianity can come up with a knowledgeable and reasonable argumentation in favor of, it becomes increasingly difficult to accept it. That is when Christianity relies more on faith than in science and logic. What has blind faith accomplished? Under Christianity, God is viewed as merciful and all-loving, compassionate and caring towards humanity, that the Bible is the source of God’s word, God wants all humans to be saved, and a necessary condition for being saved is becoming aware of the word of God and accepting it. Then why would a merciful God, a God who wants all humans to be saved, not provide clear and unambiguous information about His word to humans when having this information is necessary for salvation? Yet, as we know, countless millions of people down through history have not been exposed to the teaching of the Bible. Even today there are millions of people who either remain completely ignorant of the Christian message or seriously lack in their “Christian education.” One would expect that if God were rational, He would have arranged things in such a way that there would more believers (ex God could have spoken from the Heavens in all known languages so that no human could doubt His existence and His message). It is grossly unfair to punish people for not believing in God either because they have not been exposed to His teachings or because of errors of reasoning.

This is fair assuming:

1. We know God’s plans for those ignorant of his word. I’m working on the assumption that those people are touched by the Spirit in some way, and also given a kind of “choice” - but i really have NO idea what happens when that happy little man from Papal reaches the “pearly gates”. Again, i’m working on a compassionate just God hypothesis, rather than the angry evil arbitrary one.
2. With regards to “rational etc.” well, God provided the Bible, and Jesus provided his followers with the commission to preach the gospel to all people, making the Word understandable and reachable to everyone. The non-scary equivalent to voice in the sky. At the same time, several people on this forum have indicated their disgust/hatred for missionaries who are trying to do that “necessary condition”
3. We humans rely too much on our rational thought processes - Ours, not Gods. It’s child vs. parent type stuff (i’d keep going, but you get my idea, and i have to go biking now!)

@TG:

That is a very simple counter-argument… i don’t believe something because it pleased me, i would be still christian. I don’t accept conclusion without knowledge of the argumentation.

I would have to agree with FS. Unless Christianity can come up with a knowledgeable and reasonable argumentation in favor of, it becomes increasingly difficult to accept it. That is when Christianity relies more on faith than in science and logic. What has blind faith accomplished? Under Christianity, God is viewed as merciful and all-loving, compassionate and caring towards humanity, that the Bible is the source of God’s word, God wants all humans to be saved, and a necessary condition for being saved is becoming aware of the word of God and accepting it. Then why would a merciful God, a God who wants all humans to be saved, not provide clear and unambiguous information about His word to humans when having this information is necessary for salvation? Yet, as we know, countless millions of people down through history have not been exposed to the teaching of the Bible. Even today there are millions of people who either remain completely ignorant of the Christian message or seriously lack in their “Christian education.” One would expect that if God were rational, He would have arranged things in such a way that there would more believers (ex God could have spoken from the Heavens in all known languages so that no human could doubt His existence and His message). It is grossly unfair to punish people for not believing in God either because they have not been exposed to His teachings or because of errors of reasoning.

That’s very similar to what I’ve heard of Christianity in particular Catholicism. Until the Holocaust, it was part of the Catholic belief that I and anyone in my religion would go to hell for nto accepting Jesus as the messiah. I’m not sure if that belief is still around, but I know it was many years ago.

Christ is the greek word for “messiah” which is Hebrew for “Redeemer”. That’s why I it’s called Christianity, I guess, because the Christians believed that they were the followers of “Christ” and were the ones he would “redeem”.

2. With regards to “rational etc.” well, God provided the Bible, and Jesus provided his followers with the commission to preach the gospel to all people, making the Word understandable and reachable to everyone. The non-scary equivalent to voice in the sky. At the same time, several people on this forum have indicated their disgust/hatred for missionaries who are trying to do that “necessary condition”

Like the bible was rational… all religion can give you myth of equal valor. If God was a little cleaver (if he does exist he his not), well he would have make him visible for all kind of people… Rationalist like me, faithfull follower like you and Empirical people… to give everyone equal chance. But that is not the case, you need faith and some people have different cognitive system, i, for exemple, don’t believe only in what i can see, but in what is rational. Why god would make himself invisible to people that are using a different intellectual approch if he is all powerful ?

3. We humans rely too much on our rational thought processes - Ours, not Gods. It’s child vs. parent type stuff (i’d keep going, but you get my idea, and i have to go biking now!)

That is horrible… You want me to let a little guy not even able to make his existance look plausible take the lead of my life ? Well i have more will, and letting an irrational god take control of my mind would be rather foolish… Why not letting Cernunnos ? What you just said is so inconclusive… we should let god think for us, but we don’t know which god is the good… if you were before a Polytheist he could say exactly the same thing; “we should rely more of cernunnos, not on logic”…

@CC:

1. We know God’s plans for those ignorant of his word. I’m working on the assumption that those people are touched by the Spirit in some way, and also given a kind of “choice” - but i really have NO idea what happens when that happy little man from Papal reaches the “pearly gates”. Again, i’m working on a compassionate just God hypothesis, rather than the angry evil arbitrary one.

Well then, I hope you are right.

@FS:

Rationalist like me, faithfull follower like you and Empirical people… to give everyone equal chance. But that is not the case, you need faith and some people have different cognitive system, i, for exemple, don’t believe only in what i can see, but in what is rational. Why god would make himself invisible to people that are using a different intellectual approch if he is all powerful ?

As important Athiest have said before, it is grossly unfair to punish people for not believing in God either because they have not been exposed to His teachings or because of errors of reasoning.

To Moses and especially Finsternis,

The Bible says something about those who desire to see something with their own eyes before they believe it.

“From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see His invisible qualities– His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.” Romans 1:20 NLT

But this doesn’t help you at all, because you don’t believe in the correctness of the Bible… so here’s one for you. Set aside all religious texts, all memories or knowledge of organized religion altogether… and find a good spot in nature somewhere so that it’s peaceful and quiet. Talk to “any general God who may or may not exhist,” and ask Him to prove to you who He is. Wait for an answer, but do not look at events, looking for a “sign.” Gods says that ALL who earnestly seek Him will find Him.
Seeking out God with all that is in you is a wise move. If there were a God, wouldn’t you want to know it? If He doesn’t show up, then He simply doesn’t exhist.

“From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see His invisible qualities– His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.” Romans 1:20 NLT

And I will read to you an explanation from Quantum Physics that not everything has to have a creator and certainly not an intelligent one.

@TG:

“From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see His invisible qualities– His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.” Romans 1:20 NLT

And I will read to you an explanation from Quantum Physics that not everything has to have a creator and certainly not an intelligent one.

TM, you are a study of contradiction… one day i wish you will explain me your vision of Religion and Economy. You, a theist, destroyed the only “logical” argument for god.

But this doesn’t help you at all, because you don’t believe in the correctness of the Bible…

Why should i look at the bible and not book about the tooth fairy ?

and find a good spot in nature somewhere so that it’s peaceful and quiet. Talk to “any general God who may or may not exhist,” and ask Him to prove to you who He is. Wait for an answer, but do not look at events, looking for a “sign.” Gods says that ALL who earnestly seek Him will find Him.

That’s, as always, something only someone infested with religious belief can say… just like the whole “i feel god” thing.

But i now know that i want to feel him when i felt him, i was weak, and all these sign were ridicoulus, when i was a teen, sometime i need to get some sign so my faith could still be over my reason. I ask god for a sign, i always get one. But with more reflexion, now that i am not a theist, i just see how ridiculous (read Pathetic) i was. I was my sign, i was attentive to thing around me and i create my own sign; i ask god many time for sign, and he answer me. An illusion, inside me, answer me.

Seeking out God with all that is in you is a wise move. If there were a God, wouldn’t you want to know it? If He doesn’t show up, then He simply doesn’t exhist.

My search for god is ended, now i am a militant Atheist and a Humanist, i will devote my life to my science, my species, my family. I search for him, he was not there, any mind that really want to know if god exist, with minimal knowledge and logic; will get an answer.

TM, you are a study of contradiction… one day i wish you will explain me your vision of Religion and Economy. You, a theist, destroyed the only “logical” argument for god.

(Assuming you ment TG) What I will say is that my religion keeps me quite happy - one where I can work for the benifit benefit of society and not its hindrance (much like communism). So there, you have my two visions on religion and economy. At any point you can call me a theist though that is a bit misplaced.

Quote from FinsterniS “Why should i look at the bible and not book about the tooth fairy ?”

LOL… Ahh the classic tooth fariy dis. Thats good.