thanks CC. i am monotheistic, and i don’t believe in a "polytheistic pantheon of gods. neither do i believe that God has polytheistic names. btw, i am a she. yanny, you asked me to explain the doctrinal difference (btw, i used the wrong terminology. it’s more like complete theological differences). i did so. i’m not trying to establish credibility. that takes more time than i have.
obviously i do not know much about theology aside from what i’ve learned about other religions and from reading the bible. At the same time if you read your pre-Chapter 11 Genesis you come across stories of great heroes, “sons of God”, the Nephilium, etc. Also in Job God has a discussion with his “sons”. Further Paul in Romans says "now we know that there are many gods . . . ". I think it possible that these might reference “gods of myth” in some way.
(i’m certain that i’ve alienated fundamentalist Christians as well as those of “rational thought” here, but i also believe that there is far too much that i don’t know or understand. Regardless “i need no other argument, i need no other plea - it is enough that Jesus died and that he died for me”).
As for Christianity, I’m not sure but it may have picked some thngs up from Ancient Rome. CC, could you shed some light on this?
it really depends on your point of view, as well as the denomination that you are looking at. For example, i believe that many of current “anabaptist derivatives” have their basis soley on the bible, and with the exception of the fact that we celebrate Christmas at the same time as much of the rest of the world, we have taken little from the ancient world (aside from the Bible, of course and even there our worship is based on the New Testament).
Catholicism has many of its “trappings” in ancient Rome, but i don’t know all of the forms etc. Some of the protestant denominations (Anglican, Lutheran) are based in Catholicism with certain political twists to their ceremonies etc.
At the same time, they all have the same fundamental background, and i would consider a practising Catholic, Luthren, and Mennonite all brothers (or sisters - TM and dIFFERNT) in Christ.
:lol:
The only reason that other thread is there is because of the poll. I’m considering merging the two topics (not easy).
CC - Schism between the replaced religions and the new Christian ways for a populace was quite necessary not to totally alienate them. Especially in the event of a conquered territory where the people needed to turn to their original faith to help them through the political and social transitions. Our modern concept and traditions associated with Christmas are excellent examples.
I believe that without the heavy political influence of the Vatican over the centuries Christianity would not be as, for lack of a better word, “divided” into various groups (Catholics, Protestants, etc.). I’m not suggesting that it would still be just one group, but far fewer than now in comparison.
I believe history saw a “shift” to monotheism to better accommodate period laws and monarchs. Multiple Gods worked well for the city-states in Greece, throw-backs from more ancient beliefs. Later, unifying countries under one monarch-one God with real law codes was more feasible (increases in trade made a lot of this necessary). Kings wanted a piece of it all, especially to pay for the armies keeping them where they were…
CC - Lastly, Jesus was a realist. Persecution was part of any religion’s history, especially in the Roman Empire. Time for change was clear for him. Judea’s situation in world events was always difficult (militarily, mainly) now things were boiling over. Looking at his adult life from a political point of view, he new his days were numbered as soon as he took a certain form of action against the Jewish authorities…
F_alk - any perceived similarities between Judaism and Egyptian religious beliefs i believe to be coincidental. Abraham gravitated to the “One God” well before the Israelites went to Egypt, and well after leaving they received their codes and laws.
I also concur with your more recent post in answer to FM’s - even Rome had several gods yet was an empire - they had a religion similar to the Greeks in this regard. The thing is, one God works well for a people who is scattered - as the Jews and Mennonites have been. We have one thing that sets us apart and helps us to identify with others. Also i believe that the Vatican’s historic power resulted in greater divisions within Christianity, but without it there would have a been far greater number of “Christian sects” - all adhering to their own interpretation of the bible, but sharing core fundamental beliefs. The RCC did a lot to stamp out growing anabaptist sects, and instead brought in and institutionalised certain regional beliefs as well as “politically expedient” ones. These caused deeper rifts, if not a greater number of sects. . . .
@Field:
CC - Lastly, Jesus was a realist. Persecution was part of any religion’s history, especially in the Roman Empire. Time for change was clear for him. Judea’s situation in world events was always difficult (militarily, mainly) now things were boiling over. Looking at his adult life from a political point of view, he new his days were numbered as soon as he took a certain form of action against the Jewish authorities…
its more than that my friend. During his whole ministry he spoke of more than was in the current Jewish belief system, and yet a week before his death he was hailed as a hero.
no, he knew human nature. He knew that people would respond to the Christian gospel the way that FinsterniS “it’s all a big ridiculous and laughable myth” and many others here do “I don’t care what you believe, just don’t talk to me about it”. He also knew that people don’t like to be called on things when they are wrong, and that’s what Christianity does. It doesn’t leave a lot of room for disobedience (well if you take forgiveness into consideration than there is indeed a vast ocean of room). People don’t like that. They think that everything they do is “alright” and that they are doing fine on their own. Of course you see a Christian saying - “you’re not doing fine on your own” then the natural tendency is to lash out “what do you mean? You a**hole! Who do you think you are to tell me anything?!?!”. Tell enough people, and we start getting killed . . . .
I’ll agree to both your responses for the ancient empires. Rome, although converted, was already falling apart. The newer monarch’s saw the marriage of church and state as a powerful tool in controling the masses. One God helped this tremendously. Enter the “Divine Right of Kings”. Monotheism made this possible. Strict laws of government and God fused together. Taxes galore. Enter fuedalism.
I’ll agree that Christianity’s rise was do to Rome’s politics. This is achieved way before the rise of the large Muslim Empires…
CC - I’ll agree with that. Many self-professed “saviors” or revolutionaries made a stand in Roman occupied Judea. People were rebelling in any form the could against the Empire and their own leaders who were “going along with them” (not that they had much choice, looking for some sense of survival). Some were killed or disappeared if making a big enough stink. Jewish authorities would not stand for any troublemakers to take what little they had left away…
There are similarities between Egyptian and Judasism just as there as a ton of similarities between Roman/Greek and Christianity. Both evolved from the same culture, and it would be ignorant of one to deny that they have many things in common.
@Field:
CC - I’ll agree with that. Many self-professed “saviors” or revolutionaries made a stand in Roman occupied Judea. People were rebelling in any form the could against the Empire and their own leaders who were “going along with them” (not that they had much choice, looking for some sense of survival). Some were killed or disappeared if making a big enough stink. Jewish authorities would not stand for any troublemakers to take what little they had left away…
Really? Can you name some for me? The Jews complained against Jesus because he was causing a disturbance. It would be just as though you were having your birthday party and some guy comes in and starts telling you that you’re a horrible person and will go to hell. He starts disturbing the whole process and won’t stop. What will you do if not call the police on him? I mean, what they do to him afterwards is none of your concern. About the idea of the Jews wanting Pontius Pilate fo kill him, I don’t believe a word of it. There’s tons of bias in those stories. I mean, who wouldnt be bitter at a people who just refused to accept your new religion. f course you’d be angry with them, maybe even to the point of portraying them as horrible people.
Why is it so unbelievable that the Jew want Jesus to die ?
emugod - John the Baptist was probably most popular after Jesus…
Yes, but he was a follower of Jesus. According to the above post, there were others besides Jesus and his movement. I’d like to here some examples of these others.
Yes, but he was a follower of Jesus. According to the above post, there were others besides Jesus and his movement. I’d like to here some examples of these others.
there were a good 12 others, in addition to people who were spawned off of them.
Of the 12, only John son of zebbeddee did not die a martyr’s death.
Why is it so unbelievable that the Jew want Jesus to die ?
Because it really doesn’t reflect Jewish society of the time. Also, the New Testament depicts a large crowd at his death and I highly doubt this. he was not that important that so many people would go and see him and cheer for him to die. It seems very imbellished as to how the evil Jews wanted to kill Jesus. Also, the bias of the authors of the New Testament also makesi t hard to belive that the story is true. I’m sure there were those who wanted him to die, but on a large scale, I highly doubt it. The Jews of the time were religious and the religion doesn’t teach to publicly cheer and call upon someone to die. Quite the opposite in fact. Nobody in Jewish history has ever been given the death sentence by a Jewish court, the way they work is different from the courts of today.
Why is it so unbelievable that the Jew want Jesus to die ?
Because it really doesn’t reflect Jewish society of the time. Also, the New Testament depicts a large crowd at his death and I highly doubt this. he was not that important that so many people would go and see him and cheer for him to die. It seems very imbellished as to how the evil Jews wanted to kill Jesus. Also, the bias of the authors of the New Testament also makesi t hard to belive that the story is true. I’m sure there were those who wanted him to die, but on a large scale, I highly doubt it. The Jews of the time were religious and the religion doesn’t teach to publicly cheer and call upon someone to die. Quite the opposite in fact. Nobody in Jewish history has ever been given the death sentence by a Jewish court, the way they work is different from the courts of today.
I thought Roman executions were spectator sport’s regardless of the victim’s celebrity status. Jewish leaders at that time were very weary of troublemakers (regardless of their message) who could be listed as “revolutionaries” by the Roman authorities. They wanted to hold onto what little control and power they still retained. Some versions of the story make it seem that the Jewish leadership was “out to get Jesus”, but it may be more that they were trying to keep their own puppet positions while they still could. More “people” oriented leadership feared strict fallout from the Romans…
You think that Jews are evil? Or why did you add that adjective?
Me thinks you’d have a hard time with “Ol’ Blood and Guts.”
