Whatever makes ´em happy…
The Existence of God
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I wonder how Christianity would be viewed today if it were NOT made the official religion in Rome by Constantine. Think of it, remove the political aspects of the Vatican over the past 1700 years. What a different world we would have. No Crusades or the Inquisition; that would be just the beginning. Christianity would probably struggled for existence like Judaism, searching for identity and a country. Historical impact is difficult to speculate…
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Explain to me how being a Monotheist deity makes God more creditable than these polytheistic deities. God is supposed to be omnipotent, which seems to me a hell of a lot less realistic than a hundred vulnerable gods.
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@Field:
I wonder how Christianity would be viewed today if it were NOT made the official religion in Rome by Constantine. Think of it, remove the political aspects of the Vatican over the past 1700 years. What a different world we would have. No Crusades or the Inquisition; that would be just the beginning. Christianity would probably struggled for existence like Judaism, searching for identity and a country. Historical impact is difficult to speculate…
that’s something i wonder about too. It seems to me to be viewed (at least in Canada) as something of a curiousity by other people (Canada being a big salad of culture and religion) rather than a faith to be taken seriously by any other than close/strict adherents.
I look at the Mennonites as an example of this - for 4 centuries we have moved around the globe, searching for a place to call our home. Our identity is somewhat mixed - some view us as an ethnic group, others as a religious one. We’ve suffered varying amounts of persecution in our history until as recently as WWII when our people opted for non-killing service and were jailed for it.
Is this different from what Christ prophesied, or called for us? I don’t believe so. Christ warned us that true followers would take up their own cross in following Him. People would hate us, call us by nasty names, and even kill us. This unpleasant reality was circumvented by Constantine in 303 ad to one degree. At the same time, Christians who tried to live by the bible - who tried to live by Jesus teachings were themselves persecuted by the church. I’ve written a few papers on this, and The Martyr’s Mirror is a history of anabaptists and other believers who tried to live strictly by New Testament teaching and found themselves in opposition to the mainstream “religion” where they were persecuted (killed in ways that we can not even accuse foreign national gov’ts of today). At the same time, there is a curious paradoxical irony in this. If the church had a history of only good things - only good people were involved in it, political motivation had no place, etc. then rather than being shunned by so many people, would it not be more popular, finding a place in the mainstream?
Maybe the church’s err in the past has actually helped to separate people with true Christian ideals from the mainstream by being unpopular and holding fast to their true beliefs?? Today it is easy to be a Mennonite in Winnipeg. We make up close to 1/10 of the population, we have a good reputation in all fields of business, law, medicine, science, etc. and have an excellent rep for charitible work. It’s nice in that we don’t have to worry about being persecuted for our beliefs, however with increasing secular humanism it is getting harder to stand by them without being labelled.
But FM - volumes could be written about your question with or without regards to my little communittee. -
Explain to me how being a Monotheist deity makes God more creditable than these polytheistic deities. God is supposed to be omnipotent, which seems to me a hell of a lot less realistic than a hundred vulnerable gods.
i believe he was simply stating a difference between Christianity from other religions. Maybe there is a polytheistic pantheon of deities. Regardless, Christians worship the “one true God” the “I am”, the God of the Israelites. I’m sure that he has other names in other cultures - even polytheistic ones.
Credibility is not a consideration when becoming a Christian. One might well become Bahai when “choosing” a religion if it came to simple credibility. It is what this monotheistic deity does in the lives and hearts of Its people that matters - not if he is realistic beyond what is necessary to provoke a need and desire to have a relationship with this God. -
CC, I understand what you are saying. However, Diferent said Christian beliefs are fundamentally different from the beliefs of every other religion I named, and therefore they are true.
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It’s nice in that we don’t have to worry about being persecuted for our beliefs, however with increasing secular humanism it is getting harder to stand by them without being labelled.
Hey, Secular Humanism is an high ideals. Anyway it’s just increasing in university, you are not seeing lots of secular humanist in the street. And even if they were in power, secular humanist would not get revenge on christians other than with logic and words, at least i wish, otherwise… they are not secular humanist.
i believe he was simply stating a difference between Christianity from other religions. Maybe there is a polytheistic pantheon of deities.
You are not a monotheist if you believe there is more than one true god.
CC, I understand what you are saying. However, Diferent said Christian beliefs are fundamentally different from the beliefs of every other religion I named, and therefore they are true.
There is also something typical, Christians (and jews, and muslims) often seem to believe that as they are sometime oppressed; they are in the god way, they are “martyr”, just like those palestinians kamikaze…
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Germans (Norse) had lots of gods… Wuotan (Odin), Tyr, Loki… and very interesting stories about dwarfs… also stories with gods dying. In our mythology, Fenrir, a giant wolf, “will” kill Wuotan in Ragnarok (apocalyps), all gods knew they would die someday, it’s the core of ancient germanic philosophy; destiny. And there is a godess called “Hel”, sound familiar ?
I don’t know very much about egyptian mythology, but as far as i know they had lots of gods, but were mostly venerating only one. Ra… or Amon before (maybe after Ra i don’t remember). Judaism (and consequently Christianism) is based partially on egyptian mythology, so maybe EmuGod or Cryptic know more about it than i do.
which means your parents/guardians/caretakers are the “real problem~~” too, since they’ve raised you with some sort of preconceived bias.
Exept if they teach you to doupt, to question and to argue.
I don’t think Judaism has any bases in Egyptian mythology from what I’ve studied. It developed in a time where all religions were polytheistic and it is very different from them. But I have nto studied Egyptian mythology in detail. Unlike Yanny’s statements that all religions were started as a way to gain ower and ctonrol the masses, Judaism was not. If it were, then surely there would be missionary work, but in fact missionary work is outlawed. Judaism began many new changes to the ancient world. A good book to read about what Judaism brought into the world is “The Gifts of the Jews” by Thomas Cahill, a Christian. There are some similarities between some things in Judaism and Babylonian laws, but that is most likely due to the 70 year exile there. These things include a similarity in the name of the day of rest, which in Judaism is once a week and in Babylon was once a month and the use of the same solar-lunar hybrid calendar. But Judaism still is quite different from ancient Babylon and ancient Egypt.
As for Christianity, I’m not sure but it may have picked some thngs up from Ancient Rome. CC, could you shed some light on this?~~
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I don’t think Judaism has any bases in Egyptian mythology from what I’ve studied.
I know it is “based” or at least influenced by egyptian mythology, i just don’t know how much. Also yes it was a polytheistic religion, but centered around one core god (unlike the greek, celt, germans or romans) and there was also the roots of a manichean ethic.
But I have nto studied Egyptian mythology in detail. Unlike Yanny’s statements that all religions were started as a way to gain ower and ctonrol the masses, Judaism was not.
I think, like i said in a previous post, that yes power is a factor, but it’s at first a “primitive” explanation of the world. They did’nt have the knowledge we have, they need to explain why the sun was there, for them it was magic. They have stories for every natural phenomena, like in the greek mythology you’ll find stories to explain the sun, the seasons, how the land was created, et cetera…
As for Christianity, I’m not sure but it may have picked some thngs up from Ancient Rome. CC, could you shed some light on this?
It was influenced by Aristotle’s philosophy.
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thanks CC. i am monotheistic, and i don’t believe in a "polytheistic pantheon of gods. neither do i believe that God has polytheistic names. btw, i am a she. yanny, you asked me to explain the doctrinal difference (btw, i used the wrong terminology. it’s more like complete theological differences). i did so. i’m not trying to establish credibility. that takes more time than i have.
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I’m sorry if I misunderstood you. But, my message remains the same.
Creationism is not feasible because it has the same credibility of any other religion. There is not one shred of proof supporting it. Evolution is backed by hard facts, and unbiased analysis.
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thanks CC. i am monotheistic, and i don’t believe in a "polytheistic pantheon of gods. neither do i believe that God has polytheistic names. btw, i am a she. yanny, you asked me to explain the doctrinal difference (btw, i used the wrong terminology. it’s more like complete theological differences). i did so. i’m not trying to establish credibility. that takes more time than i have.
obviously i do not know much about theology aside from what i’ve learned about other religions and from reading the bible. At the same time if you read your pre-Chapter 11 Genesis you come across stories of great heroes, “sons of God”, the Nephilium, etc. Also in Job God has a discussion with his “sons”. Further Paul in Romans says "now we know that there are many gods . . . ". I think it possible that these might reference “gods of myth” in some way.
(i’m certain that i’ve alienated fundamentalist Christians as well as those of “rational thought” here, but i also believe that there is far too much that i don’t know or understand. Regardless “i need no other argument, i need no other plea - it is enough that Jesus died and that he died for me”). -
As for Christianity, I’m not sure but it may have picked some thngs up from Ancient Rome. CC, could you shed some light on this?
it really depends on your point of view, as well as the denomination that you are looking at. For example, i believe that many of current “anabaptist derivatives” have their basis soley on the bible, and with the exception of the fact that we celebrate Christmas at the same time as much of the rest of the world, we have taken little from the ancient world (aside from the Bible, of course and even there our worship is based on the New Testament).
Catholicism has many of its “trappings” in ancient Rome, but i don’t know all of the forms etc. Some of the protestant denominations (Anglican, Lutheran) are based in Catholicism with certain political twists to their ceremonies etc.
At the same time, they all have the same fundamental background, and i would consider a practising Catholic, Luthren, and Mennonite all brothers (or sisters - TM and dIFFERNT) in Christ. -
:lol:
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The only reason that other thread is there is because of the poll. I’m considering merging the two topics (not easy).
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CC - Schism between the replaced religions and the new Christian ways for a populace was quite necessary not to totally alienate them. Especially in the event of a conquered territory where the people needed to turn to their original faith to help them through the political and social transitions. Our modern concept and traditions associated with Christmas are excellent examples.
I believe that without the heavy political influence of the Vatican over the centuries Christianity would not be as, for lack of a better word, “divided” into various groups (Catholics, Protestants, etc.). I’m not suggesting that it would still be just one group, but far fewer than now in comparison.
I believe history saw a “shift” to monotheism to better accommodate period laws and monarchs. Multiple Gods worked well for the city-states in Greece, throw-backs from more ancient beliefs. Later, unifying countries under one monarch-one God with real law codes was more feasible (increases in trade made a lot of this necessary). Kings wanted a piece of it all, especially to pay for the armies keeping them where they were…
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CC - Lastly, Jesus was a realist. Persecution was part of any religion’s history, especially in the Roman Empire. Time for change was clear for him. Judea’s situation in world events was always difficult (militarily, mainly) now things were boiling over. Looking at his adult life from a political point of view, he new his days were numbered as soon as he took a certain form of action against the Jewish authorities…
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F_alk - any perceived similarities between Judaism and Egyptian religious beliefs i believe to be coincidental. Abraham gravitated to the “One God” well before the Israelites went to Egypt, and well after leaving they received their codes and laws.
I also concur with your more recent post in answer to FM’s - even Rome had several gods yet was an empire - they had a religion similar to the Greeks in this regard. The thing is, one God works well for a people who is scattered - as the Jews and Mennonites have been. We have one thing that sets us apart and helps us to identify with others. Also i believe that the Vatican’s historic power resulted in greater divisions within Christianity, but without it there would have a been far greater number of “Christian sects” - all adhering to their own interpretation of the bible, but sharing core fundamental beliefs. The RCC did a lot to stamp out growing anabaptist sects, and instead brought in and institutionalised certain regional beliefs as well as “politically expedient” ones. These caused deeper rifts, if not a greater number of sects. . . . -
@Field:
CC - Lastly, Jesus was a realist. Persecution was part of any religion’s history, especially in the Roman Empire. Time for change was clear for him. Judea’s situation in world events was always difficult (militarily, mainly) now things were boiling over. Looking at his adult life from a political point of view, he new his days were numbered as soon as he took a certain form of action against the Jewish authorities…
its more than that my friend. During his whole ministry he spoke of more than was in the current Jewish belief system, and yet a week before his death he was hailed as a hero.
no, he knew human nature. He knew that people would respond to the Christian gospel the way that FinsterniS “it’s all a big ridiculous and laughable myth” and many others here do “I don’t care what you believe, just don’t talk to me about it”. He also knew that people don’t like to be called on things when they are wrong, and that’s what Christianity does. It doesn’t leave a lot of room for disobedience (well if you take forgiveness into consideration than there is indeed a vast ocean of room). People don’t like that. They think that everything they do is “alright” and that they are doing fine on their own. Of course you see a Christian saying - “you’re not doing fine on your own” then the natural tendency is to lash out “what do you mean? You a**hole! Who do you think you are to tell me anything?!?!”. Tell enough people, and we start getting killed . . . . -
I’ll agree to both your responses for the ancient empires. Rome, although converted, was already falling apart. The newer monarch’s saw the marriage of church and state as a powerful tool in controling the masses. One God helped this tremendously. Enter the “Divine Right of Kings”. Monotheism made this possible. Strict laws of government and God fused together. Taxes galore. Enter fuedalism.
I’ll agree that Christianity’s rise was do to Rome’s politics. This is achieved way before the rise of the large Muslim Empires… -
CC - I’ll agree with that. Many self-professed “saviors” or revolutionaries made a stand in Roman occupied Judea. People were rebelling in any form the could against the Empire and their own leaders who were “going along with them” (not that they had much choice, looking for some sense of survival). Some were killed or disappeared if making a big enough stink. Jewish authorities would not stand for any troublemakers to take what little they had left away…
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