AARHE: Phase 3: land Combat

The on going discussion:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=40520.msg1693864#msg1693864
on Transport with defense roll makes me wonder about actual combat strength of Classic Transport and an escorted TP:

Transport and Destroyer A2 D2 C15, 1 hit
Offense & Defense factor:
36*(2/15^2) = 0.32

Transport and Cruiser A3 D3 C19, 1 hit
Offense & Defense factor:
36*(3/19^2) = 0.30

Classic Transport A0 D1 C8, 1 hit
Defense factor:
36*(1/8^2) = 0.5625

I revised the opening post.
As comparison points, a Fighter A3 D4 C10 off/def is 1.08 / 1.44

Destroyer A2 D2 C8, 1 hit
Offense & Defense factor:
36*(2/8^2) = 1.125

Submarine A2 D1 C6
Offense:
36*(2/6^2) = 2.00
36*(3/6^2) = surprise strike 3.00
Defense:
36*(1/6^2) = 1.00
36*(1.33/6^2) = surprise strike 1.33

You need to send 2 Destroyers to get a similar defense value with Classic Transport strength 0.5625:
Transport and 2 Destroyers A4 D4 C23, 2 hits
Offense & Defense factor:
36*(2/11.5^2) = 0.544

Or make defenseless Transport a 4 IPCs unit:
Transport and Destroyer A2 D2 C12, 1 hit
Offense & Defense factor:
36*(2/12^2) = 0.50

Now, if you want to introduce a Classic TP with the same strength of actual DD+TP combo 0.32:
You need to make TP cost 10,5 IPCs:
Classic Transport A0 D1 C10, 1 hit
Defense factor:
36*(1/10^2) = 0.36

At 11 IPCs, it would be 0.30 though.

Transport defending A0 D1 would be interesting at a clean 10 IPCs.

Hello Zaibach,

Sorry for the late response.  Yes, the UK takes a major Turn 1 hit in the Med from this system.  It also prevents the UK from launching a “Taranto Raid” against Italy in Turn 1.

However, this is later counterbalanced by the Allies ability to attack together simultaneously.  It is a lot easier for the US and UK forces to unite and launch an attack into N. Africa and the Med in Turn 3 or Turn 4.

We’ve played about 10 games now with the 3-Turn system and have had wins on both Axis and Allied sides.

There is some modifications compared to the opening post of this actual thread (mostly about AAA, TcB, Cruiser and BB anti-air capacity):

Here is the most preeminent 9 features which revised actual units combat value and interaction in play:

First, except for 4 specific units: AAA’s, TcB’s, Fgs’ and Subs’ casualties, all casualties are now chosen by the owner and there is no specific order for any units, including Transports.

Anti-Aircraft Artillery now defends almost as OOB but in every round against up to 2 aircrafts,

Fighter A2 D2-3 M4 at 6 IPCs (hit plane first) and
a weaker Tactical Bomber A3 D2 M4 C8, aiming at AAAs first and applying Combined Arms only to support Tank +1 offense or defense.
This makes two different planes with distinctive functions.
This fighter unit (remotely related to his 1914 counter-part) is the long awaited answer to this question: “why planes can’t hit planes in A&A?”

This also includes a still acceptable historical Strategic Bombing Raid escort and intercept combat values in which:
Fighter gets A2 D2-3,
Tactical Bombers A1 first strike
Strategic Bombers A1 first strike against up to 2 Fgs, whichever the lesser (works like the new AAA, for a single combat round).

3-planes Aircraft Carrier at 14 IPCs with 2 hits and defending @3 (carrying up to 3 planes whether Fighters or Tactical Bombers).
The defense is highered up to D3 to keep with a full 3 Fgs load a similar advantage (to OOB) over attacking Carrier with 3 TcBs.
In addition, G40.2 Carrier at 16 IPCs also receive an additional single opening first strike defensive AA capacity against up to 2 planes, similar to AAA unit.

A costlier Submarine A3 D1 at 7 IPCs with same offensive and lesser defensive combat value compared to OOB but an increase elusiveness against Destroyers,

Destroyer A2 D2 blocking submarines’ Surprise Strike as OOB, but 1:1 for Submerge (1 round only) and Stealth Move
In addition, any hit by planes against submarines is treated normally: planes need no more special presence of Destroyer to hit submarine.

Transport able to defend: A0 1D1 maximum per TPs group, 1 hit, at 8 IPCs and get a combat value which simplify interactions with other units.

A reduced cost structure for warships mostly based on Advanced Shipyard Tech,
keeping the OOB scale cost ratio between warships: 1 DD+ 1 CA= 1 BB.
Increasing Naval actions while keeping a high 8 IPCs for this transport unit, thus making it a more expensive sea-fodder (if someone choose to use them as such).

Also, it contains 2 additional units from HBG (to get a more complete historical roster of weapons) such as:
Mechanized Artillery A2-3 D2-3 M2 which becomes a substantial and competitive units at 5 IPCs,
Escort Carrier D2, carrying 1 plane (Fg or TcB) (an historical 1/3 ratio of Fleet Carrier capacity) with Anti-Sub Vessel capacity same as Destroyer.

So, now you get my simpler complete A&A units historical roster incremented scale by 1 IPC from 3 IPCs to 10 IPCs, then 14, 16, 17 IPCs, and a smoother game mechanics.
It is as balance (within itself, IMO) and as close as possible from historical feel dynamics without too much sacrifice toward complexity.

The more interesting feature is the Fighter unit at same cost with Tank.
It is more able to figure the usefulness of Tank, Tactical Bomber and Fighter (3 important driving machine-weapons of WWII) on the battleground, not just Tank, and make them almost equivalent loss, from IPCs POV.

Tank (A3-4 D3-4 M2 C6) gets a better offensive and defensive punch and can be shielded by AAA, Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Artillery, Mechanized Artillery and Heavy Artillery units as fodder. Also, the Tactical Bomber is giving it a +1 Air Support bonus.
This make now Tank the most important unit in ground combat.

Fighter (A2 D2-3 M4 C6) is more versatile on Sea / Air / Land but have a lower offensive and defensive punch than Tank, and is unable to conquer land territory by itself while being directly vulnerable to AAA unit and other Fighter.

Tactical Bomber A3 D2 M4 C8, applying Combined Arms to support 1:1 Tank +1 offense or defense. But very vulnerable against Fighter while able to directly destroy AAA ground units.

This is a summary of their special abilities (some are house rules I already used and tested):

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY A0 D1 CM1 Cost 3, 1 hit,
Each round, up to 2 preemptive defense @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever the lesser, works similar to OOB AAA but can defend each combat round.
Stop any blitz, and defend itself @1 against enemy’s ground units, if no attacking air unit is present.
Can move during combat move phase, can be taken as casualty (owner’s choice).

INFANTRY A1-2 D2 M1 Cost 3
Get +1A if paired 1:1 with Artillery or Mechanized Artillery

MECHANIZED INFANTRY A1-2 D2 M2 Cost 4,
Get +1 if paired 1:1 with Artillery or Mechanized Artillery
Can Blitz when paired 1:1 with a Tank

ARTILLERY A2 D2 M1 Cost 4
Gives +1A to 1 Infantry or 1 Mechanized Infantry

(MECHANIZED ARTILLERY) (Self-Propelled Artillery / Assault Gun) A2-3 D2-3 M2 Cost 5 added for completeness
Gives +1A to 1 Infantry or 1 Mechanized Infantry when paired 1:1 with.
Tank Hunter as a Tank Support capacity: gets +1A/D when paired 1:1 with a Tank.
Both bonus can work at the same time.

TANK A3-4 D3-4 M2 Cost 6
Can Blitz
Allow Mechanized Infantry or Mechanized Artillery to Blitz on 1 on 1 basis or a 1:1:1 basis.
Gives +1A/D to Mechanized Artillery when paired 1:1 with
Gets +1A/D from Tactical Bomber when paired 1:1 with
Both bonus can apply.

FIGHTER A2 D2-3 M4, same in SBR Cost 6
Air combat unit, Fighter as an Air Superiority aircraft: All hits are allocated to aircraft units first, if any available, then AAA, and finally other kind of units.
Fighter as part of an extended Air Defense System:
1 Fighter units receive +1 Defense if protecting a territory with an operational Air Base, (for 1942.2, 2 Fgs can scramble from a Victory City instead.)
SBR/TcBR Attack @2, Defend @2, or even Defend @3 for 1 Fg if an operational Air Base is present.
Can scramble in adjacent SZ up to 4 Fgs: 3 defend @2 and 1 defend @3, getting the +1 Defense bonus from an operational Air Base.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.

SUBMARINES A3 D1 M2 Cost 7
Surprise Strike, (blocked when at least 1 Destroyer or Anti-Sub Vessel is present),
Submerge, instead of rolling for a Surprise Strike attack (blocked by ASV on a 1:1 basis for the first combat round only),
Stealth Movement: No Hostile Sea-Zone (except ASV can block Submarine Stealth movement on 1:1 basis),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an Anti-Sub Vessel.
Re: Reality wrecking destroyer rules need a revamp…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34169.msg1372793#msg1372793

DESTROYER A2 D2 M2 Cost 7
Anti-Sub Vessel: each ASV blocks Surprise Strike capacity of all enemy’s Submarine units present.
Cancel Sub’s Submerge on 1 DD:1 Sub basis for the first combat round only
(When it occurs, defending Subs rolls a Defense @1 in the first round, and any surviving Subs can submerge at the beginning of the second combat round.)
Cancel Sub’s Stealth Movement on 1 DD: 1 Sub basis for Combat or Non Combat Move, all additional Sub units can perform a Stealth Movement as usual.

TACTICAL BOMBER A3 D2 M4 Cost 8
All hits are allocated to Anti-Aircraft Artillery units first, if any available, then other kind of units.
Combined Arms bonus with Tank, Tactical Bomber as a “Dive Bomber” and “Tank Buster”:
Gives +1 Attack or Defense to any 1 Tank when paired 1:1.
SBR/TcBR Attack @1 first strike,
Allowed to do escort mission of Strategic Bomber without doing Tactical Bombing Raid on Air Base or Naval Base,
Bombers (StB or TcB) are the first targets destroyed by interceptors.
Cannot do interception mission on defense,
TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.

TRANSPORT A0 1Def@1 Maximum per TPs group M2 Cost 8, 1 hit
A transports group get a single defense roll @1/round along with defending warships
(for this single defense roll, friendly transports are all considered being part of the same defending player’s group),
and each transport unit can be taken individually as casualty. As long as their is still 1 TP remaining, it can roll this single defense @1.
OPTIONAL: CONVOY protection
To get less impact on the opening set-up battles, a lone transport at the start of a combat gets no defense roll but can be used as a fodder, since it still has 1 hit value. If a transport becomes single during a battle, it still get a defense roll @1, for the duration of the combat.

Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1320853#msg1320853
Must be escorted by a warship when making an amphibious assault in an enemy’s Submarines infested SZ or Transports infested SZ, so to be able to ignore them/ or fight them with combat units.
Otherwise, Submarines and Transports may be ignored during Transport Combat Move or Non Combat Move.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1373212#msg1373212

(1942.2 or G40.2 ESCORT CARRIER) A0 D2 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, added for completeness
Carry 1 Fighter or 1 Tactical Bomber,
Anti-Sub Vessel, working the same as a Destroyer,
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with Battleships or Cruisers: each Cruiser or BB get up to 1 preemptive shot @1 against up to one plane.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34985.msg1359001#msg1359001

CRUISER A3 D3 M2 Cost 10
Shore bombardment @3
Combined Anti-Air Defense when at least 1 Carrier is present: each Cruiser gets up to 1 preemptive shots @1 against up to 1 plane.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34985.msg1359001#msg1359001

Strategic BOMBER A4 D1 M6 Cost 10
Strategical Bombing Raid (SBR*)/ TBR : Attack @1 first strike against up to 2 fighters, whichever the lesser, similar to AAA.
SBR/TBR damage: 1D6+2 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base
Bombers (StB or TcB) are the first targets destroyed by interceptors.
If destroyed by IC’s, AB’s or NB’s AA gun, a minimum SBR damage apply: 2 IPCs.
No damage if destroyed by Fighter interceptor.
Can hit submarines without Anti-Sub Vessel.
Re: Rethinking Air Units
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34502.msg1331015#msg1331015

1942.2 FLEET CARRIER A0 D3 M2 Cost 14, 2 hits
Carry 3 planes (Fgs or TcBs)
Damaged Carrier can still carry 1 plane.
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with Battleships or Cruisers: each Cruiser or BB get up to 1 preemptive shot @1 against up to one plane.

G40.2 FLEET CARRIER A0 D3 M2 Cost 16, 2 hits
Carry 3 planes (Fgs or TcBs)
Damaged Carrier can still carry 1 plane.
Fleet Carrier is an Anti-Air platform: AAA get up to 2 preemptive shots @1 against up to two planes.
AND can also gets
Combined Anti-Air Defense when paired with Battleships or Cruisers: each Cruiser or BB get up to 1 preemptive shot @1 against up to one plane.

BATTLESHIP A4 D4 M2 Cost 17, 2 hits
Shore bombardment @4
Combined Anti-Air Defense when at least 1 Carrier is present: each BB gets up to 1 preemptive shots @1 against up to 1 plane.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34985.msg1359001#msg1359001

SBR/TBR escort and intercept combat values:
Fighter: Attack 2 Defense 2 or 3 (+1 to 1 Fg from an operational Air Base)
Tactical Bomber: Attack 1 first strike Defense 0
Strategic Bomber: Attack 1 first strike , as AA gun against up to 2 Fgs, Defense 0
Bombers (StB or TcB) are the first targets destroyed by interceptors.

I would allow 2 types of defensive maneuvers for aircraft.
DEFENSIVE MANEUVERS allowed for 2 or 3 types of aircraft:

Aerial Retreat for attacking planes (all aircrafts can retreat while letting ground units pursuing battle),

Limited landing in a just conquered territory (which includes at least 1 ground unit): 2 planes (either Fighter or Tactical Bomber), as long as each units can provide 1 extra movement point for this special landing.

I hope you will comment this whole A&A game changer (and feel free to talk about any features above, if you ever tried in your own F2F A&A game).

New cost structure and document in this thread:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36833.msg1469053#msg1469053

@Admiral:

Hi Baron,

I know it’s been a while since you posted this, but I have been toying with the idea of increasing air-to-air combat in a way that is very similar to what you have presented here.

I think the A2 D2-3 C6 Fighter is a very interesting idea. Having them target other air units before anything else is a simple and effective way to simulate that air-to-air combat. I also like how the combat values would now be the same in SBR (makes things simple).

I also really like how you altered Tactical Bombers to be A2-4 D3 C8. The two attack bonuses really give meaning to the importance to air supremacy.

I am curious to know how these two units have worked for you.

Thanks!

It evolves into this roster:
Baron’s HR units charts and set-up for 1941, 1942.2 and AA50
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36833.msg1469053#msg1469053

The main reason is because of too many combined arms and bonus for TcBs and Fgs.
Makes for longer combat round and more details to consider to get the correct bonus per combat round.
Since the point was about hitting directly other planes, I simplified the TcB special ability.
That way, combined arms is now reserved to ground units.
So, it is easier to focus on what is specific to Fg and TcB.
I always start combat rounds with preemptive AAA, then these two units (when present) fire, then all other units.
HTH.
Baron

@Uncrustable:

Tac bombers need something, they are rarely produced relative to fighters and strat bombers

I would also suggest letting tanks roll a 4 for each tac bomber present if air supremacy has been achieved, that is for each tac bomber one tank rolls at 4 instead of 3. Tac bombers do not change
This even further increases air buys and also gives tanks a buff which they need

We already have a round of combt befor normal combat (AAA) just add all planes to that round, everything hitting on 1s. Easy

Air supremacy is checked for each round of combat, before any dice are rolled for that round

These rules will magnify both fighters and tac bombers buys as well as tanks, and also promote a combined arms approach to purchases similar to artillery and infantry

You want enough fighters to achieve air supremacy, but also a good even amount of tac bombers and tanks to maximize air supremacy when you do achieve it

This kills multiple birds with a single stone
It should reduce somewhat the infantry/mech spam with sprinkles of artillery that we see now
It also indirectly buffs AAA as each AAA adds 3 more dice to the air battle in defense, and increases your chance of gaining control of the skies

Very thoughtful ideas. I like them.
However my first impression is your HR change much more the balance.
I’m looking for just small changes.
I will come back on this.
You have some compelling reason like this one:

We already have a round of combt befor normal combat (AAA) just add all planes to that round, everything hitting on 1s. Easy

Thank you very much for your challenging ideas.

NM found it:

http://www.historicalboardgaming.com/HBG-Fuel-Markers-Acrylic-_p_804.html

@Imperious:

The reduced values are realistic because the target is a fast moving plane and not a slow moving tank.

My point is: if you don’t dominate the skies, then you can’t loiter around doing the damage required to neutralize a dug-in infantry division, for example.

IMO, there should be some decrease in fighter lethality if enemy fighters remain in the battlespace.

yep