Seperation of Church and State

“No, thats why we have laws.”

Please, point me to the law that strictly justifies the separation of Church and State. The problem is that you can never find those words in the US Constitution. In fact, even the “wall of separation between church and state” was originally an allusion to a wall around a church to keep the government from interfering in the free exercise of religion.

“The constitution says this, Your free to practice any Religion, but the Goverment will not take into account any Religion (state sponsered or otherwise) when making laws.”

Lets take a look at the Constitution and its original intent. The incontrovertible fact is that the Establishment Clause was never intended as a restriction on state governments. In fact, the majority of states did have state-established religions. Nor was this much less a restriction on state education (where this battle on “Under God” is mainly fought), where most schools were church run at the time.

Its purpose was to prevent the federal government from establishing a national religion or to interfere with any religions already established by the states so that people in the several states (and their communities) could exercise their religion free from federal coercion, unlike the England from which their ancestors fled. Before the American Revolution, five of the 13 states had government-sponsored churches supported by tax revenue. The 1st Amendment came as an answer to the their prayers.

The Framers did not mean to bar God from our public lives or even from all aspects of our federal government. Indeed, the day after the House passed the First Amendment, the House passed a resolution establishing a national day of prayer and thanksgiving (unless we also want to declare these actions of our Constitutional writer’s “unconstitutional”)

BTW: I did some looking up into this Newdow guy, and what a whackjob!
"It’s fairly easy to poke fun at the eccentric Newdow, who also, incidentally, wants to eradicate masculine and feminine pronouns from our dictionary. He would replace “he” and “she” with “re,” “his” and “hers” with “rees” and “him” and “her” with “erm.” “‘Come on, try it out,’ he says. ‘Re went to the store. It’s easy.’”

O’Dea is a special case, because a lot of people want to get in to play foot ball, but O’Dea is a special case. First of all, Parochial grade schools take all comers, and most highschools, like Blanchet, take almost 100% of the applicants. Now not everyone can get into any particular Catholic school, but they can get into one period.

IZ you are from O’Dea? What grade are you in?

FISTERNIS YOU ARE SO FULL OF CRAP!

90% of the people of France are Catholic (although undoubtedly some are only culturally Catholic) which is a HUGE difference from 12%. Yeah right, like The U.S. is more Catholic than France.

Don’t believe me, try http://www.photius.com/wfb2000/countries/france/france_people.html

17% Budhist! Give me a break. Try less than 1%

@yourbuttocks:

90% of the people of France are Catholic (although undoubtedly some are only culturally Catholic) which is a HUGE difference from 12%.

Major Weakness… :o

@Mr:

Ummmm 90% of Americans belive in God?..…somehow I do think so.

That doesn’t mean that they are Christian. In fact, 7% of the theists in the united states are non-christian.

But 90% are religious, though a few percent of those may not believe in God. Check out http://www.photius.com/wfb2000/countries/united_states/united_states_people.html

From the same page, later on:

No claims are made regarding the accuracy of France People 2001 information contained here

In case you are in denial, here is another source:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

You may have to select France/United States from the list on the left.

@yourbuttocks:

FISTERNIS YOU ARE SO FULL OF CRAP!

90% of the people of France are Catholic (although undoubtedly some are only culturally Catholic) which is a HUGE difference from 12%. Yeah right, like The U.S. is more Catholic than France.

Don’t believe me, try http://www.photius.com/wfb2000/countries/france/france_people.html

17% Budhist! Give me a break. Try less than 1%

I am sure you are quite happy… wooooooo, you were not able to counter my argument about why your dogmatic religion is not rational with your old Kantian & Cartesian logic (Design argument, Uncaused cause), so you jump on the occasion to make me look like dumm ? Well you miss my friend…

You see, what you take was a statistic about How They Were BORN. That is not base on survey. Is someone here, that is or has been in France, can agree with YB ? 90% Catholic; yeaaa, they are BORN catholic like i am BORN christian, huge difference… Statisticly i am a protestant…

Just look at the CIA statistics, they will say; France 90% Catholic, blablabla, no Atheist, no Agnostic… Germany x% catholic… blablabla, no Agnostic, no Atheist (well maybe because of West Germany) but anyway, you get the point… Sure statistic are always a little false somewhere… but my stats is not THAT false. And in the case of religion/opinion about religion; survey is the best option. The survey i have is the only one i have the source and the question, so i trust it…

Also, even if my statistics were false (that is even not the case), this does’nt mean i am “full of crap”.

If you ask i will even give you the source of these statistics

@FinsterniS:

Also, even if my statistics were false (that is even not the case), this does’nt mean i am “full of crap”.

and if they were true would that mean that you are “full of crap”? :D

(it’s late . . . ).

Well, even if US is the only religious country, I’m happy. It’s yet another ‘perk’ that makes us unique. :wink:

@TG:

Well, even if US is the only religious country, I’m happy. It’s yet another ‘perk’ that makes us unique. :wink:

Not the only one… spain, poland, are very religious… and most poor country are also very religious.

don’t forget Canada . . . although not the most religious country, there are more believers here than many other places (of many faiths). Interesting - two of the wealthiest countries in the world, as well as many poor ones. Throw Israel and many Arab nations into the mix, as well as the wanna’ be wealthies (Brazil, etc.) and there is little correlation or pattern emerging just yet. . . .

“Not the only one… spain, poland, are very religious… and most poor country are also very religious.”

Aww… well flush it down the toliet. :o

First, Fisternis, I agree that not an entire 90% of of the French People are not practicing Catholics, (Though a great many are) 9 out of 10 frenchmen identify themselves as Catholic.

Second, U.S. only religious country? 900 million Catholics? 900 million Hindus? 900 million Muslims? 600 million Protestants? 300 million Coptic, Orthodox and Ethiopian CHristians? 15 million Jews? Where do you think these people live? North America, South America, Africa, Middle East, India, Spain, Portugal, Hungary, Italy, France, etc. Secular governments do not equal atheist countries.

@yourbuttocks:

Second, U.S. only religious country

i NEVER said that, atheist are very rare.

Also here my “full of crap” statistic.

FRANCE
source; Institue SOFRES

Nowadays, two millions of frenchmen have a Buddhist adhesion in the census (Express). IFOP '97: Good behavior of the Church in front of the preservatives, 25% yes, 69% is wrong; too much conservative the Pope (among practicings)? 51% yes. Another survey by the IFOP among the young people: adhesion with “make love, not the war” 93%, adhesion with “Neither owner nor god” 39%. In other poll, french people is 11% atheist, 38% agnostic. Tax of divorces in France: 36%, in Ille-de-France 50%. Poll of 1996; important decisions only with the personal conscience 83%; only with the Church postures 7%; both 9%. World Values Survey of 1991, 21% of weekly churchgoers, 13% with the religion as important in his/her life. A survey among the catholic practicings shows that the 69% believe that the christianity is pro immigrates, but 13% that it is compatible christianity and racism; 20% want that the Church defends the immigrates, 44% only helps them, and 13% doesn’t nothing. In poll '98, the french a favour of accept legally the couples of fact 76%; item the homosexual couples 68%. A BVA poll about the spirituality (1999): More close to catholicism 62%, protestantism 19%, Buddhism 11%, judaism 8%, islamism 6%. Regular churchgoers, 12%. According to the answers of the belief about god, 41% about one and personal, 9% deist, 22% agnostic posture, 26% atheist. Poll about the death (edited in “Psychologies” of november '98): After your death, what do you think what will happens to you ? 35% Nothing , 29% Don’t know, 13% a new life, 7% union with god, 5% reincarnation, 3% eternal life, 2% the soul continues living, 6% other answers. (more than 100% because there was one or two answers ).

• Abortions: 12.4, Ratio 17.7%.
• New statistic: 19% atheist; 6% pseudoatheist; 25% agnostic; 10% deist; 5% christian deist; 1% muslim; 5% New Age; 17% neodoukhobor; 12% catholic, majority churchgoer and of the Christian Right.

note that a pseudoatheist (i don’t like the name) is a non-materialist atheist and a neodoukhobor is a reincarnationist (or something like i am not even sure)…

You want a slugging match? A few quotes/links

The Pope in France in September
Pope John Paul II will visit France in September of this year, for the 1,500th anniversary of Roman Catholicism as France’s principal religion. The Pope will be in the country from September 19 to 22, for his sixth visit to France. He will visit the Loire valley, Brittany and Reims. In 496, King Clovis converted to Christianity and was the first ruler to submit himself to the authority of the Church, giving France the traditional name of the “oldest daughter of the Church.” The fifth underground nuclear test took place on December 27. The energy released was less than 30 kilotons.

-source: http://www.info-france-usa.org/publi/nff/96nff1/eve4.htm

Religions:

Roman Catholic 90%, Protestant 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim (North African workers) 1%, unaffiliated 6%

-Source: http://www.theodora.com/wfb/france_people.html

I dont know why people post a web page to support an augrement?
Just because something is on the web doesn’t make it true/fact.
The internet, for the most part is unregulated.
Anyone can create a web page and use it as tool to support their beliefs.
Just look at ( this is a extreme example but…) a white power web page, is everything they claim right?, no.

If your going to use a web page to support an augrement, at least try to use a few different references.

So Mr. Ghoul, the CIA is part of a conspiracy to convince the world that France is mostly Catholic? Just because you disagree with something does not make it not true Mr. Ghoul. Fisternis should have taught you that by now.

It looks like Fisternis is representative of the vocal fraction of French society.

The French Republic is a secular state where all religious faiths and denominations are represented.

-source: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/venir/voicilafrance/gb/page03.html#01

Notice it is a French site. lol

wow, i am using survey from a France agencies, and what ? You give me thing that have no link with opinion. Like i said; in your stats there is no Atheist, no Agnostic, no Bouddhist, why ? Because it only consider how you are born, not what people think.

Sure France is (was?) catholic… but it’s dying really fast.

@yourbuttocks:

You want a slugging match? A few quotes/links

The Pope in France in September
Pope John Paul II will visit France in September of this year, for the 1,500th anniversary of Roman Catholicism as France’s principal religion. The Pope will be in the country from September 19 to 22, for his sixth visit to France. He will visit the Loire valley, Brittany and Reims. In 496, King Clovis converted to Christianity and was the first ruler to submit himself to the authority of the Church, giving France the traditional name of the “oldest daughter of the Church.” The fifth underground nuclear test took place on December 27. The energy released was less than 30 kilotons.

-source: http://www.info-france-usa.org/publi/nff/96nff1/eve4.htm
quote]

What does that have to do with the number of catholics living there?
If the Dalai Lama comes for a visit to France, does that mean they suddenly all turn buddhist?