Prostitution

@CC:

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one. In a nice happy world where prostitution does not occur, legalization would, indeed, not mean approval. In the real world, the point is moot. “hey, it’s legal, so that means it is alright for me to do it”. Once something is legal, then you always have a number of people who will defend it do the death, and they will push the boundaries of it. You will have an ineffectual judge who eventually will acquit a pimp of using a very precocious 17 y/o (or 16 y/o), thereby setting a form of precedent.

Ahhh, But you are forgetting, in a perfect world prostitution would not exist in the first place. “Hey, it’s legal, so that means it is alright for me to do it.” Interesting take on this. But, “Hey, I’m 18. I can do anything with my life,” is also a valid assumption (or the “Hand off my Ovaries” case many feminist like to use against abortion). When something is legal, you do have people trying to push the boundaries of it. Of course, these are extremist, and usually they represent a tiny fraction of the majority. You will have ineffective judges (that is a given), however this does not set a precedent. Precedent comes from the Supreme Court (or the State Supreme Federal Courts to a lesser degree), where many judges preside. This usually means that the “ineffective judge” (and there might be one or two) will be overruled.

@CC:

Of course, i am naive enough to think that improvements in the social consciousness of communitties might indeed have a long term effect on prostitution and abortion, provided that it was appropriately directed.
Also - moral teaching will not go that far. People know it’s wrong to visit prostitutes. Just suggest to them that they should tell their wives they are doing it.
Finally, my arguments vs. prostitution are largely a cover-up for the queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach that i get when something so obviously wrong is tolerated by society. I have to admit - that part of me governs much more to an extent what i do and feel is right than any part of my brain (which provides the language to justify what i feel).

Well CC, you admitted it yourself, we all know prostitution is wrong, and even if we did legalize prostitution, we would still know its wrong. But prostitution will still happen given either scenario. Same goes with cigarettes, which is why you see such heavy taxes and anti-smoking campaigns on them. Social guiding in schools (and in churches) will help those unsure whether they want to commit to such a degrading occupation, but how often does the message have to be given before it becomes completely ineffective? A good example would be the Pledge of Alliance (or whatever you Canucks call it :P ). Now I’m content with saying it once a week (reflecting on how much my country has given me), but when you start saying it every day, it does start to lose meaning to it. I agree with your feelings, but just turning a blind eye to what is happening is not the answer (something I have to admit the Conservative party is at fault here). Something has to be done. It may not be to legalize prostitution. It could be something radically different. But something has to be done. Remember (and I will quote myself on this one :wink: ), “Never let your emotions get the better of you.”

ahhhh . . . but i’m not turning a blind eye to things. quite the opposite. I am opening my eyes to the possibilities that social change might bring. I have an inkling as to the realities of the world, but just as communism has never worked properly, some contend that under the right circumstances it might. I believe that if we direct our sight at the underlying problems contributing to prostitution (drugs, poverty, abuse, pimpin’, johns) then the only prostitutes left would be the ones “giving it away”.
Also a federal Quebec judge can establish a precident on a case that a British Columbia lower court judge would have to adhere to (or risk the case later being overturned). My source on this is a Queen’s bench judge (second highest court to the appeals court).

“I am opening my eyes to the possibilities that social change might bring. I have an inkling as to the realities of the world, but just as communism has never worked properly, some contend that under the right circumstances it might.”

However, you haven’t exactly given me any clear guidelines onto what “social planning” is. At least with communism, there is a clear “plan” on what to do given the situation (except for consequences foreseeable only in the future). Also the possibilities of social change are there, but to what extent? But I’ll help you out. When my “Evil” Conservative side was still with me, I proposed the “Three Hits Law” (“Three Strikes Law” being taken already :P) where the punishments for engaging in prostitution were so severe, it would cause anybody rethink what they’re doing.

“Also a federal Quebec judge can establish a precident on a case that a British Columbia lower court judge would have to adhere to (or risk the case later being overturned). My source on this is a Queen’s bench judge (second highest court to the appeals court).”

Well you Canadians are interesting types. Usually, LA (or CA for that matter) never adhere’s to any decision by another State Federal Court (lower circuit?), unless it’s a supreme court decision. I such “important” cases such as underaged/child prostitution, the judge (or jury depending on the situation) will declare a miscarriage, appeal the decision, or overturn it (most likely).

I think that Sir Cystic Crypt was on to something when he mentioned ‘social planning’. In order to rid ourselves of prostitution, we must fight prostitution at its roots, in the ghettos and in the schools, instead of wasting precious effort and time to combat its symptons. Rarely does any person I know desire to become a prostitution because of free will but because there is nowhere else to turn. I think it should be our obligation to find some way to provide better opportunities, education, and counseling to those less fortunate then us :(

@TM:

Rarely does any person I know desire to become a prostitution because of free will but because there is nowhere else to turn.

That’s still free-will.

TM Moses VII wrote:
Rarely does any person I know desire to become a prostitution because of free will but because there is nowhere else to turn.

“That’s still free-will.”

Tell me, if I pointed a gun to your head and I told you had the option of becomming my slave or dying, would this be free-will? If I forced you to sign a treaty under duress, would this be free-will? Similarly, if you were on the verge of straving (without any shelter or clothes) and the only option was prostitution, what would you choose?

U bet cus u still have the choice. u can either die, which is a fair option and ends ur misery or u can become someones slave for a good 10 years. u still have a choice and thats freewill

Yep, Ewok is correct. You may not like the situation, and it may not be fair. But you ALWAYS have a choice.

U BET ;)

I think that the “free-will” arguers are really pushing the envelope of credibility and rationalization to tell us that all prostitutes get into the business of their own “free will”. Please tell me that beyond the b.s. that your mind produces in order to reach this argument there is a part of you that really knows better . . . that knows that for many of them this is their last place to turn in order to stay alive/care for their children . . . that knows that many are forced into it by their boyfriends, or the gangs that they are in.
It’s very easy to sit at our computers in the basement of mommy and daddy’s place to say that these “stupid women chose to give their bodies to vile disgusting creatures because they felt like it”.
i agree with TG - when they see only one way to go, it’s bloody hard to go another.

Sure. I’ll give ya that. I’m sure there are many prostitutes who feel they had no-where else to turn except to the streets. Whether they think they have no-where else to go is irrelevent. They still made the choice to sell themselves. You can’t argue this. There’s simply no arguement, because you always have a choice.

The majority of prostitues are, in my opinion, taking the easy way out of a hard situation. Go work at your local McDonald’s if you have to (or whatever other easy jobs there are), but don’t sit here and try to make me sympathize with them. Everybody has problems in life.

Sure. I’ll give ya that. I’m sure there are many prostitutes who feel they had no-where else to turn except to the streets. Whether they think they have no-where else to go is irrelevent. They still made the choice to sell themselves. You can’t argue this. There’s simply no arguement, because you always have a choice.

You are making big and dangerous generalization/simplification. Am i sure this is not always that simple !

How so? By saying that prostitutes made a choice? Why are you so afraid of making people responsible for their actions?

@FinsterniS:

Sure. I’ll give ya that. I’m sure there are many prostitutes who feel they had no-where else to turn except to the streets. Whether they think they have no-where else to go is irrelevent. They still made the choice to sell themselves. You can’t argue this. There’s simply no arguement, because you always have a choice.

You are making big and dangerous generalization/simplification. Am i sure this is not always that simple !

in the words of “The family guy” - Un-freaken’-believable. FinsterniS and i in agreement. I need to reveiw your comments on the “War on drugs” post.

izcoder quoted: How so? By saying that prostitutes made a choice? Why are you so afraid of making people responsible for their actions?

not at all. This, in fact, is a pet peeve of mine - people not taking responsibility for their actions. At the same time, to blame prostitutes for the situation that they are in is more than a little simplistic, and not helpful at all. To arrest them and throw them in jail because of their “choices” is not a useful way of dealing with the problem.

@cystic:

To arrest them and throw them in jail because of their “choices” is not a useful way of dealing with the problem.

Welcome to the justice system in America. We arrest people and throw them in jail every day. Why should prostitutes be any different?

@izcoder:

@cystic:

To arrest them and throw them in jail because of their “choices” is not a useful way of dealing with the problem.

Welcome to the justice system in America. We arrest people and throw them in jail every day. Why should prostitutes be any different?

Well, keep in mind that i am against prostitution.
At the same time doesn’t the bill of rights or some such memo-type deally deal with something like this? I mean, they are “just having sex”, and so they ask for a little bit of money to offset their expenses - clothes, keeping-them-alive materials.
The thing is, many of these other people arrested and thrown into jail need not be either. Jails are full of people who need not/should not be there. They should be used for the violent criminals - keep them off the streets, as well as demonstrate societies repudiation for their crimes, etc. With regards to prostitutes (and marijuana users) there are far more effective (and cost effective) ways of dealing with these people other than keeping them in the system (which is all you’re doing by tossing them in jail). A prostitute (many times) is not like a car jacker, murderer, armed robber, etc. It is usually a person trapped in a cycle (possibly of their own, largely inadvertent) design who can be helped to become a more responsible/productive citizen, rather than a sponge off of the correctionals department budget (i.e. the taxpayers).
Justice is not just punishment, but it is also compassion, mercy, and “doing what’s right” for the people involved.

I’ll agree with you there, our justice system does have way too many people in jail that would be better suited to other types of punishment (or rehabilitation, if you prefer :wink:) What I’m against however, is the legalization of prostitution, and the reprocussions that would come with that.

@izcoder:

I’ll agree with you there, our justice system does have way too many people in jail that would be better suited to other types of punishment (or rehabilitation, if you prefer :wink:) What I’m against however, is the legalization of prostitution, and the reprocussions that would come with that.

me too.