War on Drugs

And I don’t like a drop out from public schools to shoot and then rob me.
I find it amusing how many people are easy to disprove of drugs when they have tried it themselves…

FYI Moses…I haven’t tried drugs, nor do I intend to.

Cystic Crypt, you’re missing my point! I’ll be the first to agree that alcohol is AS BAD as drugs (how many times as that been said in this thread? :wink: ) I fail to see what LEGALIZING MARIJAUNA WILL DO TO HELP THAT! Actually, pot smokers are criminals, whether you agree with the law or not. And as for putting law enforcement to better use, fighting so called “real crime”…they’re attacking the crime at it’s source.

First, the reason that Marijuana does not cause as many social problems as alchohol is that not as much of it is used as alchohol. If Marijuana is legalized (without a prescription), then it will be cheaper and easier to get, thus more people will use more of it. And before it is said, people use weed because it gives them a high, not because it is illegal.

Crackdown on the inflow and send addicts to treatment programs, not jail. Since 9/11 we have accidentally been catching a lot more weed at the border. What would happen if we really tried?

First, the reason that Marijuana does not cause as many social problems as alchohol is that not as much of it is used as alchohol. If Marijuana is legalized (without a prescription), then it will be cheaper and easier to get, thus more people will use more of it. And before it is said, people use weed because it gives them a high, not because it is illegal.

Marijuana is worst than alochol. It’s almost impossible to OD on marijuana. I don’t see the problem with more people using marijuana moderately -it’s a good way to unwind.

Crackdown on the inflow and send addicts to treatment programs, not jail. Since 9/11 we have accidentally been catching a lot more weed at the border. What would happen if we really tried?

We already spent billions of dollars fighting the influx drugs, I see this as tax payer’s money going to waste.

smokers are criminals, whether you agree with the law or not. And as for putting law enforcement to better use, fighting so called “real crime”…they’re attacking the crime at it’s source.

Legalization is the primary source of temptation to involve otherwise law abiding citizens into illegal activity. (This seems to flow partly from a conviction on their part that they are not doing anything wrong and that the government has been irrational and dictatorial) Marijuana can be grown cheaply and sold for more than the price of pure gold. U.S. production has soared some 400% in 20 years, making it one of the leading cash crops in many states. Illegal marijuana is more available to most teens than legal alcohol. Under current conditions, I say that about 50% of our young adults are criminals, eroding the criminal justice system and respect for the law.

FYI Moses…I haven’t tried drugs, nor do I intend to.

Though I can’t say the same about many others… cough Bill Clinton cough

@izcoder:

FYI Moses…I haven’t tried drugs, nor do I intend to.

Cystic Crypt, you’re missing my point! I’ll be the first to agree that alcohol is AS BAD as drugs (how many times as that been said in this thread? :wink: ) I fail to see what LEGALIZING MARIJAUNA WILL DO TO HELP THAT! Actually, pot smokers are criminals, whether you agree with the law or not. And as for putting law enforcement to better use, fighting so called “real crime”…they’re attacking the crime at it’s source.

When you use the term “criminals”, they are so because they are breaking the law. The fact is, unlike with B&E’s, murder, unethical (and even immoral), violent, etc. activities, marijuana use does not confer the same “evildoer” status on someone. Aside from second-hand marijuana smoke, and selling pot to kids/selling bad pot - marijuana use is a victimless crime that serves as a recreation. If someone is smoking pot and becomes violent on it etc. then fine - arrest them and charge them with being an idiot. Possession and use should net no more than a fine, and i think we could eventually work our way into legislated sales of marijuana with few societal consequences (maybe more “fat” people . . . ).
As for attacking crime at its source, with legislated (read: controlled) marijuana sales, you’ve just killed the traffiking industry - something we have no control over now. Also marijuana isn’t the kind of drug that people go into withdrawl over when they quit - it’'s not as bad as nicotine. My alcohol example was simply that it’s absurd to criminalize an act based on what consequences might happen.
“i’m eating fast food that could up my cholesterol causing me to stroke out while driving and kill some children - we should ban fast food”.
absurd.

Don’t forget car crashes, terrorist funding, increased use among peers, and damage to fetus while pregnant…marijauna use is not quite the “victimless” crime you so gallanty portray.

ITs true, Marijuana funds civil wars, causes car crashes, and gives you lung cancer/ephezema faster than cigarettes. NOt to mention behavior and memory disorders. Are you ever around users? They can’t remember anything!

Controlling drugs prostitution is more feasible than Communism, yet you pretend it is the other way around.

@izcoder:

Don’t forget car crashes, terrorist funding, increased use among peers, and damage to fetus while pregnant…marijauna use is not quite the “victimless” crime you so gallanty portray.

car crashes - caused by angry, sleepy, drunk, diabetic people, as well as people on a number of legal perscription drugs, epileptics, old people, stupid, lazy, egotistical people blah blah blah
terrorist funding - obtained through charities, bakesales, real estate, people working jobs in N-America and sending the money home, opium, cocaine, kidnappings, bankrobbings, money laundering via almost every “legitimate business” under the sun
increased use amoung peers - video games, violent movies, tv, alcohol, but at the same time, give some peers credit for “not being into it”. Marijuana does not cause people to use it - there are many reasons that drive people to use it, not all bad - the bad ones need to be dealt with on a societal level tho’.
Damage to fetus - alcohol, many legitimate drugs - otc’s and prescription, being in a car with an idiot, being with a mother who does not take folic acid/control her diabetes/hypertension etc.
Sorry - i hardly think that marijuana is responsible for these things. Irresponsible people are responsible for these. If they didn’t have marijuana they would f**k up their lives in worse way, you can be certain of that.

Irresponsible people are responsible for every action they take, regardless of what drug they’re on. When they’re on marijauna however, they’re judgements and decisions are severly impaired.

BTW-Why do people keep listing alcohol has they’re argument for legalizing marijauna? I can’t understand this. Stick to the topic. You can’t justify legalizing something just because there are “worse things” out there. That makes absolutely no sense. Find a better arguement and make a convincing statement, and then maybe I’ll believe you.

Cystic, nobody is debating that those things you listed don’t do horrible things, but you’re original post said that marijauna was a “victimless” crime, and that the only person affected by it is those who smoke it. Hardly so.

@izcoder:

Irresponsible people are responsible for every action they take, regardless of what drug they’re on. When they’re on marijauna however, they’re judgements and decisions are severly impaired.

BTW-Why do people keep listing alcohol has they’re argument for legalizing marijauna? I can’t understand this. Stick to the topic. You can’t justify legalizing something just because there are “worse things” out there. That makes absolutely no sense. Find a better arguement and make a convincing statement, and then maybe I’ll believe you.

Cystic, nobody is debating that those things you listed don’t do horrible things, but you’re original post said that marijauna was a “victimless” crime, and that the only person affected by it is those who smoke it. Hardly so.

The alcohol argument was included with many other arguments. Deal with the fact that sometimes it is useful to draw analogies from other sources in order to “firm up” an argument.
By your logic, my writing a prescription is a crime and not a victimless one. By prescribing insulin and/or a sulfonylurea drug, i am quite possibly inducing hypoglycemia. In a person with hypoglycemia unawareness (and there are many) i might well contribute to them getting into a car accident and killing many people. At the same time, they are usually subject to weight gain - a problem that compounds their already-present risk of cardiovascular disease. Not a victimless crime. At the same time, if my patient uses what i prescribe responsibly, and we work to prevent the possible sequilae of the meds, then it is possible (but by no means guarenteed) that they may prevent some of these problems.
Likewise a person who takes marijane responsibly - in their own home, with no plans to drive, avoiding while pregnant - is harming no body except maybe their own lungs (and usually given the frequency of the average user, their tobacco is killing them more quickly). If we regulate the sale of it we may make it even safer than tobacco (from a medical standpoint).
Of course diabetes has nothing to do with marijuana use, but i’m certain that someone somewhere might back up my use of analogous situations in a debate setting.

I hear you CC.

An arguement for keeping Pot illegal base on the fact that it may cause car crashes is weak.
So is saying that it is harmful to use it.
If someone wants to fry their brain in the comfort of their own home, well frankly thats that person business.

Its harmful for someone( like CC said) to over eat high-Glycemic foods.
Maybe causing harm to other people as well, should we outlaw these types of eating habits?

Oh, pleeeeeease. Don’t even begin to compare prescription drugs to marijauna. Prescription drugs are for people who are suffering from some medical ailement. The way I understand it (and correct me if I’m wrong) you’re talking about legalizing marijauana for recreational use. Now, I’ve all ready said that I don’t have has much a problem with legalizing marijauna for those folks who are in so much pain that nothing else will help them, but legalizing one more deadly drug for purely “recreational” use is absurd.

“deadly”?
the hyperbole is not helping your case. marijuana is less lethal than fast food, nicotine, automobiles, water (which drowns more people than marijuana kills) etc.
putting decent people in jail for recreational marijuana use is even more absurd.

You seem to be confusing “less lethal” with “completely harmless”. Are you forgetting the effects that legalizing marijauna for the entire country will have? So far, I’ve only heard three things repeated over and over again.
1.) Alcohol is way worse than marijuana, therefore marijuana should be legalized.
2.) We’re wasting money fighting this battle.
3.) I have a right to do marijuana as long as I don’t harm anyone else.

Here’s my problem with these arguments.
1.) Legalizing marijuana will do nothing to solve the problems we have today concerning alcohol, it will only add to it.
Making marijuana legal=more widespread use=more fatalities resulting from increased usage.
2.) The majority of American people (so far) have no problem with this.
3.) Need I remind everyone here that you have NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to get high. Regardless of if you feel like you’re hurting anyone or not, the drug is illegal for a reason.

@izcoder:

You seem to be confusing “less lethal” with “completely harmless”. Are you forgetting the effects that legalizing marijauna for the entire country will have? So far, I’ve only heard three things repeated over and over again.
1.) Alcohol is way worse than marijuana, therefore marijuana should be legalized.
2.) We’re wasting money fighting this battle.
3.) I have a right to do marijuana as long as I don’t harm anyone else.

Here’s my problem with these arguments.
1.) Legalizing marijuana will do nothing to solve the problems we have today concerning alcohol, it will only add to it.
Making marijuana legal=more widespread use=more fatalities resulting from increased usage.
2.) The majority of American people (so far) have no problem with this.
3.) Need I remind everyone here that you have NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to get high. Regardless of if you feel like you’re hurting anyone or not, the drug is illegal for a reason.

You’re not doing justice to my arguments. I was using alcohol as an example of a circumstance where people can enjoy it responsibly (and many do) without repercussions (unless they do so irresponsibly). The same goes for driving, swiming, parachuting, etc. When people are less responsible then there are lethal effects. Same thing with marijuana use. As for more fatalities - well, that again applies to driving, flying, sports, fast food - the more users, the more deaths. At the same time, i am not convinced that marijuana is anywhere as lethal as the examples i mentioned.
The majority of the American people do not vocalize a problem with this. I dare say that more Americans than you know do have a problem. Most of them don’t say anything because of potential financial/business/career/family/political repercussions. As far as the constitution goes - there are many rights people have that are not explicitly stated. As a Canadian, i don’t really care about the American constitution. I do get offended at American policy against drugs impressing itself on Canadians and our business.
But i don’t, and few of my friends even use pot. Is there not a sane marijuana user that wants to take over the helm here? (before i get labelled . . . ).

@cystic:

I dare say that more Americans than you know do have a problem.

Where are you getting this information from?

@izcoder:

@cystic:

I dare say that more Americans than you know do have a problem.

Where are you getting this information from?

oh, a wild guess.
Do you actually believe that you know of all of your friends, acquaintances and family which of them do/have done pot and which haven’t?
I’m guessing more than you think.

Just becuase people do marijuana doesn’t mean you can use that as an excuse to legalize it! I don’t care who is doing it, it doesn’t make it any less dangerous!

Here are some interesting facts about marijuana that I picked up, take a look:

1.) The illegal drug industry ranks in size with Mobil Oil as our second largest business – only Exxon is larger.

2.) Cocaine is now the leading cash flow drug a 26-32 billion a year.

3.) The U.S. Spends almost as much money on marijuana – 18-26 billion a year – as its spends on import oil. Marijuana is California’s largest cash crop.

4.) The drug paraphernalia business was a 3 billion a year industry in 1979.

5.) This year, among American high school seniors, one in 11 is a daily user of marijuana.

6.) Today’s cultivated marijuana has an average potency of 4% THC – the major psychoactive ingredient – as compared to the marijuana of the 60’s which had an average potency of .25% THC. Today’s marijuana is 10 to 15 times stronger than that of the 60’s.

7.) THC remains in the fatty tissues of body cells, especially in the brain and the reproductive organs. Even a week after marijuana joint is smoked, 30-50% of the THC is still in the body in active form. It takes 3 to 6 weeks to eliminate all THC from the body. More frequent use means that the user is never drug-free, in fact, there is a gradual accumulation of the drug in the fatty tissues of the body.

8.)There are over 7,000 published scientific and medical studies documenting the damage that marijuana does to the various systems of the body. Not one study give marijuana a clean bill of health.

9.) Marijuana is a complex material containing 421 chemicals, 60 of which are found only in marijuana.

10.) Five typical marijuana cigarettes have the same cancer-causing capability as 112 tobacco cigarettes. Marijuana tar has more carcinogens than tobacco tar, and the smoke is inhaled more deeply, further aggravating the lungs and the respiratory system.

11.) Reaction time for the motor skills, such as driving, is reduced by 41% after smoking one joint and by 63% after smoking 2 joints.
Marijuana use reduces or alters the fundamental cellular defense against disease. White blood cell count is reduced 41% from normal levels with regular use of the drug.

12.) THC has been found to interfere with the transmission of brain messages; EEG’s of regular users exhibit abnormal brain wave patterns.

DRUGS AND ALCOHOL IN THE WORKPLACE
1.) 10% of all workers have an alcohol problem

2.) 6% of all workers have a drug problem

3.) 5,000 work related fatalities yearly are due to drugs and alcohol

4.) 1 million work related serious injuries are due to drugs and alcohol yearly

5.) Cost to industries due to alcohol abuse is $77 billion per year

6.) Cost to industries due to drug abuse is $27 billion per year

7.) Lost productivity due to drugs and alcohol is $44 billion per year

Alcohol and Drug Abusers:
are late 3 times more than other employees
are 2 1/2 times more likely to leave work early, take time oft, be absent
use 3 times more sick days
have 4 times as many on the job accidents
use 8 times as many hospital days
Assisting an employee who has a drug probem is more cost effective than hiring a new employee. The firing/hiring process is expensive and there is no guarantee that the new employee will not suffer a similar problem.
60% of all employees can be successfully rehabilitated if they seek treatment. This reduces the absentee rate from 8% down to 3%.

Not one of these reasons convinces me that those who use marijuana should be thrown in jail.
They are quite good reasons for stringent regulation of the sale and production of the drug, particularly where minors and motor vehical use is concerned (for that matter i think drugs with ephidrine should be better controlled as well), but not one of them is a good reason for my dozen or so neighbours, friends and family members to go to jail. Every person i know who consumes or has consumed marijuana is a very productive member of society. In jail they would suck tax money out of the system, they would not contribute to society, and nothing in the world would change for the better. (mind you, this is a small sample, but surely you get my point).
And where is my support from all you potheads who posted in the “game of HIGH adventure” thread?
TG, Chris, Xi - i’m looking at you guys.

Marijuana is much more dangerous than insulin shots, silly Crypt. Fast food doesn’t destroy your memory, your motor skills, weaken your immune system, or give you throat cancer.