Iraq, again

Fuck, thats me again.

F_alk I’ll grant you the meddling with the contra’s. I was focusing on europe. And not to be pro american- or pro capitalist, but I think we have a right to directly invovle ourselves in the affairs of other countries. most countries recieve aid from either the USA or Russia in some way, be it money or food or natural resources, why not demand that they at least be agreeable. to me it’s like asking someone to take off their shoes at the door to your house. now I don’t consider russia an enemy, and they have simulair polocies. we are the most needed nations- especially the usa. if our economy was to cataclysmically explode we would have complete anarchy in the word. -I’ll respond for you - unimaginably inflated sense of self importance- yep that’s me. :D

this kind of leads me to an interseting thing I heard on the radio today. mandella said that we were basically terrorists and that we don’t care about humanity- and what was that crack about that if koffie anon was white we’d listen to the un? PLEASE-

the tactics we tried against Iraq (the economic embargo) was the same tactics that helped free mandella’s people. but the white south africans yielded to the economic pressure to change (even though it meant a power shift) while I still argue that sadam used osomma to give us a black eye for trying to force him out of power.
and it doesn’t matter what color the un is, if they were all britts we still wouldn’t listen until they started making sense. which in my terms means agreeing with me.

F_ALK - I agree that capitalism does have some drawbacks if left unchecked. obviously monoplies can be bad- and a workplace without labor laws is bad. but I want the bare minimum (in regulation).

social programs in general are bad. and not only are the unnecessary they are inefficient. Both my sets of grandparents are poor (less than $10,000/yr) - one side works for money (part time) the other side is fed by the gov. my fathers family are all working poor- who probably could not survive without government handouts, while my mother’s side are all on welfare (of one form or another). my dad didn’t want to live like that- so he joined the army and took us away to germany. my own family was poor until I was in high school. but the poor performance of the german currency helped to get us by (not a shot at you F_alk),
my dad had no education past high school- but he now makes a hundred grand a year. I myself had only one year of college- I own my own home and do quite well enough for myself- although not nearly like my dad- both of my younger brothers are college boys- although one wasted his degree.
and we rose from poverty without one drop of government assistance. Yeah I’m white- but that’s not the reason. I excell - despite the ODDS being stacked against me because of two things- first- because I will not accept failure, and secondly because here I was given an opportunity and I seized it.
I feel very badly for poor children- children are the only true good in this world- however I have total and utter contempt for poor starving adults. EXCEPTION- poor nations where poverty is the norm.

You want to know what makes Iraq stand out from those other countries? Well, first of all, nothing from which you said makes Iraq any less of a threat; the longer we wait, it’s only going to get worse.

But anyways, here goes:
1.) Iraq has violated 16 UN resolutions aimed at preventing him from destabilizing the region. (I’d be skeptical of any of those countries listed above that have violated as many UN mandates as Iraq has.)
2.) He openly admits to funding terrorist organizations and supports any attacks against Israel. (These come directly from Saddam Hussein; I’m not pulling this from thin air.)
3.) They still hold captured POW’s from the Gulf War, which were ordered to be returned; which the cease-fire agreement was contingent upon.

Those are just a couple of the main reasons I support the war. Furthermore, I do believe that the only way that we are ever going to know that Saddam is completely disarmed is to go into Iraq using military force. Any rational thinking person has to know that it’s near-impossible for 100 inspectors to scour that country and expect to find something as small as a beaker. In fact, it’s illogical. Yanny, if you want to know what the inspectors point of view on this entire situation is, go read Hans Blix’s report to the UN. ( http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,76710,00.html )

Now that we’ve argued this back any forth; Yanny, why do you not want to go to war? If we do not take the hard-line with Saddam, every other irrational country out there will know that they can get away with the same crap that Saddam is pulling. We need to make an example out of someone, so why not do it with a guy that nobody likes in the first place (and that has given us good reason to)?

those are some great reasons, i entirely agree. i don’t know a whole lot about the enitre Iraq issue, but i do know that they still have POW’s from the gulf war, and i know that they haven’t shown us any evidence that they have gotten rid of the chemical/biological weapons that they DID have when the gassed the Kurds in '91. and who knows? saddam might have even developed nuclear weapons by now. in times of doubt… Lower taxes and go to war!!! :P

@Yanny:

Reasons to attack Iraq, according to you guys:

1. Human rights abuses. Iraq is a totalitarian, facist country. Not a fun place to live to say the least.

2. The never proven Iraq-Al Quaeda collaboration theory.

3. Weapons of Mass Destruction, Not abiding by treaty to disarm.

Human Rights Abusers:

1. Saudi Arabia
2. Pakistan
3. Libya
4. North Korea
5. China
6. Sierra Leon
7. Somalia
8. Sudan
9. Israel

Countries proven to collaborate with Al-Quaeda and similar groups

1. Saudi Arabia
2. Pakistan
3. Sudan
4. Indonesia (certain members of their Government only)
5. Iran

Rogue Nations with weapons of mass destruction and/or developing them and/or refusal to abide by Security council resolutions.

1. Israel
2. Pakistan
3. Iran
4. North Korea
5. Libya
6. Syria

Iraq, by no means, tops any of those lists. But lets look at some of the countries.

Pakistan - Nuclear weapons. Extremely Oppresive Government. Failing to help hunt down Osama and Al Quaeda.

Iran - Working on Nuclear Weapons. Sponsors Al Quaeda and has a history of terrorism against the US. Oppressive Government, with tens of millions of people wanting a Democracy, but need help.

North Korea - Most oppresive Government on the planet. Has prohibited Nuclear Weapons. Has means of delivering the Nuclear Weapons. International arms supplier. Sociopath leader. Threw out weapons inspector. Using US money intended for energy aid to fund Nuke program.

Saudi Arabia - Extreme supporter of terrorism. Most oppresive Government in the Middle East.

Iraq - Very oppressive Government. No links to Al Quaeda. Kicked out Inspectors 5 years ago. Has a handful of Bio and Chemical weapons. Violated 14 UN resolutions.

Israel - Democracy which only applies to half the population. Kills innocents on live TV. Uses US weapons. Refuses to live up to promises to UN and US. Has broken scores of UN resolutions, including treaties signed by Israel itself.

Now, heres why we aren’t focuses on those other countries.

Israel - Too much public sympathy. We give them over 3,000,000 dollars in weapons each year.

Saudi Arabia - We already get oil from them. Bush has oil interests in Saudi Arabia.

Iran - No real finicial gain for the US. Bush is unwilling to see the huge democratic, western friendly movement going on.

North Korea/Pakistan - Too much of a fight for Bush. Not easy targets. No real economic gain.

So, what sets Iraq apart from all those countries listed above?

No country is obligated to obey UN resolutions because all countries are sovreign over themselves. But Iraq is obligated for losing the Gulf War. Israel is a democracy and the population is allowed to vote. In the last elections, the Arab parties won a total of 9 seats in the Israeli parliament. They are allowed to vote. Remember that Palestinians are Jordanian citizens that are autonomous. What treaties has Israel broken that it has signed? Israel has not broken the Oslo Accords nor any other treaty it has signed. The PA was given authority over the Palestinians and they continue to have it. If anyone is a supporter of Al-Qaeda, there’s one for you to look at. The Palestinians were celebrating after 9/11, giving candy out to the children. Though Arafat claimed that only a few children were celebrating and thaning Allah, adults were clearly seen also doing so. Do not forget which country was the one who turloy saved Kuwait. Israel was the one who knocked out the Iraqi nuclear reactor before it made hundreds of nuclear weapons operational. Imagine how the Persian Gulf War would have turned out if that had not happened. If you believe the pcitures that the mdeia, shows you, then you seriously have a problem differentiating between what is true and what is made to look true. For example, the New York Times once put in their newspaper a pciture of a severely beaten and bleeding boy with an ISraeli officer with a club behind him pointing it in his direction and yelling. The caption said that the ISraeli officer was beating up the Palestinian boy. When an American family saw this, they sent in a formal complaint saying that it was an Israeli boy, their son, who had been beaten up by Palestinians at the start of the intifada. He was in critical condition. The police officer was yelling at the Palestinians to back off and saved the boy. So the Times made a correction in next week’s newspaper, in a very small font atthe bottom of the page telling that they had made a mistake so it would not be seen.

Then we have the time where the newspapers said that the IDF killed some Palestinians who left hand print marks on the western wall. Now when you look at the pictures of the handmarks, you would notice how neat and itdy they look. Any person who was shot would not just start putting nice neat hand prints on a wall but would more likely make a handprint and drag the blood to the floor has he fell to the ground. The camera does not lie, but it can be MADE to lie.

Be careful of what the media feeds you, there is always the attempt to increase ratings by twisting the truth and facts, particularly on the Israeli issue but also on the Iraq issue. The point of this post is just to warn you, Yanny, find credible sources on which to base your work. The best book on the Arab-Israeli conflict is “From Time Immemorial” by Joan Peters. She spent 7 years researching it and drew her conclusions based on that. A third of the book is her references and bibliography. I strongly recommend it. I personally have only read a bit of it, but I intend to finish it.

BTW, you forgot to mention that Sudan still has an illegal slave trade there.And if you are following breakers of UN resolutions, maybe Spain should be on that list for 35 years of Fascism, keeping the Basque province as part of Spain against their will and making only token reforms despite demands by the western world. Morocco should also be there for occupying Western Sahara, and China for occupying Sinkiang and tibet. Even Manchurians want independence from China. Do not forget Russia for Chechnya, and the USA for California, Arizona and New Mexico ;). The British in Northern Ireland is also a military occupation, like Israel of the territories. According to your criteria of aggressors and human rights abusers, there should be many more being added to your list. It is convenient to have some and not others there.

@alamein:

F_alk I’ll grant you the meddling with the contra’s. I was focusing on europe. … but I think we have a right to directly invovle ourselves in the affairs of other countries. most countries recieve aid from either the USA or Russia in some way, be it money or food or natural resources, why not demand that they at least be agreeable. to me it’s like asking someone to take off their shoes at the door to your house. now I don’t consider russia an enemy, and they have simulair polocies.

Then, if you grant the Soviets the same rights, and admit they had a asmiliar policy… why do you bring up that point that they supported terrorists in countries they had an interest in, just as the US did (of course the nomenclature was opposite but using similar phrases)?

we are the most needed nations- especially the usa. if our economy was to cataclysmically explode we would have complete anarchy in the word. -

We would have a major depression, anarchy is something else.
And it is not overestimating the at least psychological power of the US economy. You should have a look at the share prices here, stock market doesn’t really move when you have a holiday, even if a company publishes its bilances that day…. maybe a total american crash would bring the europeans to recongnize their own power, which in total is comparable to the US. That could help us decouple from you, so feel free to crash :)

this kind of leads me to an interseting thing I heard on the radio today. mandella said that we were basically terrorists and that we don’t care about humanity- and what was that crack about that if koffie anon was white we’d listen to the un? PLEASE-

Well, i suspect that someone who suffered under racism can see hidden racism better than the ones who unconsciously (sp?) are showing racist behavior.

the tactics we tried against Iraq (the economic embargo) was the same tactics that helped free mandella’s people. but the white south africans yielded to the economic pressure to change (even though it meant a power shift) while I still argue that sadam used osomma to give us a black eye for trying to force him out of power.

If it was not for a visionary leader in south africa, we would have had a major civil war there. The economical pressure was part of the reason, but it was more the leader caring for his whole nation and all of its inhabitants than just to support his lobbies and feed them first of all.

social programs in general are bad. and not only are the unnecessary they are inefficient. Both my sets of grandparents are poor
… my fathers family are all working poor… my dad didn’t want to live like that- so he joined the army and took us away to germany…

So, a social program might have allowed your father to take his chances without the need of joining the army.
Social programs are necessary and useful.

I feel very badly for poor children- children are the only true good in this world- however I have total and utter contempt for poor starving adults. EXCEPTION- poor nations where poverty is the norm.

I can agree here, that’S why i support social programs: to give the children chances they otherwise would never have!

@Yanny:

Remember that Palestinians are Jordanian citizens that are autonomous.

Then Israel is murdering Jordanian citizens in cold blooded murder, and illegially occupying Jordanian lands.

Palestine is no longer part of Jordan, and has not been part of Jordan since 1967. Israel either needs to give the lands back to Jordan, which it won’t do, or admit the West Bank and Gaza as part of Israel. Palestinian citizens either a) Need to be given the right to vote or b) Cannot be taxed by the Israeli Government. Else, Israel is not a Democracy.

Israel did not follow the Oslo according. They failed to turn Palestinian lands over to Palestinians. They failed to give the Palestinian Authority any funding or power to enforce the law which they were obligated to do.

The PA is unable to Govern Palestine because Israel has destroyed millions of dollars of infrastructure purely to retaliate against terrorists, who have nothing to do with the infrastructure which is being destroyed. Israel has again and again tried to take out leaders of terrorist organizations in public, killing many innocent bistanders. In the US, that would be grounds for a murder charge.

Israel destroying Iraq’s Nuclear reactor in 1981 was not a bad thing. It solved a problem.

Yes, some of the Israeli violence toward Palestinians has been exaggerated. But so has much of the Palestinian violence. For example, you actually believed a few threads back that Palestinian kids learn math via counting dead Israelis. The pure facts are this, more Palestinian innocents die than Israeli innocents.

BTW, you forgot to mention that Sudan still has an illegal slave trade there.

Sudan, after Saudi Arabia, is on my list of nations we need to deal with now, for they harbor terrorism.

I would not have believed it, if I had not seen it in a certain documentary. Israel did give the PA the authority it needed and the funding it needed. Yasser Arafat’s Fatah and PA are direct affiliates and sponsers of the terrorist group the Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade. They fund bombs and other weapons for these terrorists.

Israel immediately after the Six Day War asked the Arab nations to negotiate and was willing to return the territories but received the joint Khartoum Conference response which was, “No peace, no negotiation, no recognition”. In the talks with Egypt, Israel was willing to return Sinai to Egypt but the Egyptians refused to take it back. They only wanted Sinai. The Jordanians refused to take back the West Bank. The Jordanians have closed off all their borders with the West Bank to stop the Palestinains from enterring Jordan and even kill the terrorists when they try to escape to Jordan. Queen Rania of Jordan is a Palestinian and even she does not care for them. BTW, the Palestinians are not taxed by the Israeli government.

Notice that all of Israel’s attempt to stop terrorism in the occupied territories are responses to terrorist attacks by the Palestinians. That’s hardly cold blooded murder when you are caught in the cross-fire. Also, Israel announces weapons checks in advance to the Palestinians so they can prepare and the offiical IDF policy is to politely search the houses of Palestinians. Now you might say, “But I saw how they messed up their hosues on CNN (or some other channel)!” Did it ever occur to you that the Palestinians might do that to win public support? The source I used that showed the Palestinain school system was a documentary to show the differences between the children of both sides, and hwo they could live normal lives if giventhe chance.

BTW, I harldy call the Mexican War buying California, Arizona and New Mexico. The Americans under President Polk fought a war for the Mexican possessions to expand Manifest Destiny. Once again, get the facts straight. Spain refuses to allow the Basques to leave and there are people living in Western Sahara. Once again on the issue of California, New Mexico and Arizona: If Israel who captured the West Bank and Gaza in a defensive war must return them or give them independence, then the United States who captured these states in an offensive war must give them independence or return them to Mexico.

I don’t think the Emu God will like this- But I agree totally with him- and I’m not jewish. I think the palestinian question would have been answered long ago if the us would not have set up arafat as a legitamate spokesman for the palestinians. being a terrorist does not make you a statesman. and with better leadership I think the palestinians would have there own state- and a fair chance.

F_ALK- I’m starting to like arguing with you. not even yanni disagrees with me as much as you do. Buddy I’m not a racist. that card gets thrown around whenever someone says anything remotly conservative around here. there is a lot of racial tension going around, which I personally find facinating. but to be racist I’d have to have it out for another group of people based on an attribute that I can easily Identify (race color whatever) and I don’t. however I do hate lazy people. partly because I hate them and partially because I’m jelious. also I do tend to hate people in general- but not for any one attribute.

F_alk- I guess I held the soviets to a different light because that terrorism difectly effected me. notice I could recall it fairly easily. while providing arms to a group that was fighting against a regime we didn’t like seemed more fair. but after discussing it I guess there’s really not much difference.

and back to Iraq-

Yanni - you nearly have my arguments for invasion of Iraq down. but as I am learning - once your mind is made up on a subject- you cannot easily be swayed.
notice you say the “never proven Iraq Al Quaeda” collaberation theory-
the president has said he has info linking saddam to al quaeda, and he plans to release more intell. on this through powell on feb 5th. does he have to compromise his sources and get people killed to show you personally proof? I personally feel that once we go in, we’ll find the weapons we want and the proof you need.

I think the whole debate that the country’s going thru over Iraq is a result of how stupid we really are. for example- had bush not procrastinated and just started bombing Iraq- or even invaded, people may have grumbled but accepted it. but now that it’s been on the tele and the radio for months, people are just tired of seeing it. I personally don’t feel the anti war people are really anti war, they just want it off the tv. they are not used to waiting- they want things right now- and since it’s not a “right now” kind of thing they become opinionated and complain.
I think that if taxes went up to 90% tomarrow- the people here would grumble but get over it. as long as they don’t have time to consider the info they are processing you could do whatever you want to most of these people.
I agree that there are many other targets for human rights violations. but we are not fighting a war for human rights, we are fighting a war against people with the means and motive to do us harm. it doesn’t mean they HAVE, just that they have the means and motive. and if all goes well in Iraq- which it hasn’t so far- I think you will see other targets. no-one said Iraq would be the last.

F_alk- what kind of taxes do you pay there now? I pay somewhere between 36-45% of my income in taxes. it’s hard to say because it is hidden taxes here. no one want’s to raise taxes, but no one seems to want to fend for themselves here either. so to pay for our social programs our government raises taxes in obscure ways on selected groups- small groups so that the majority of people are never affected at any one time- they want to be re elected. I always seem to be in this group. I wouldn’t mind helping others if it was MY choice. but it’s quite another matter when someone takes your money to help some cause they believe in.
when I was about 17 me and my dad were talking about welfare- and I brought up the liberal argument that “if even one person is helped from this program- doesn’t that make it all (the fraud) worth it”? my dad looked at me and said " wait until you start paying taxes- I G** ****** gaurantee that attitude will change" … my daddy was right. when I personally had to pay for all the fraud- I didn’t care anymore about that one struggling family- let them starve- the 1000 other shmoes ruined it for them.
that’s why I believe that if you can’t work- you shouldn’t be allowed to survive. you couldn’t in the jungle, why should you here?? and like I said, I don’t feel this way about children. it’s not there fault their parents are dreggs. I just wish we could take them out of poverty, or abuse and let them enjoy life. and be loved. lord knows it’s not long before the weight of the world takes that away from them.

Oh if that "can’t work Shouldn’t survive thing made you mad - try this:
-If you Don’t Pay Taxes - you shouldn’t have a right to vote - especially on tax increases.
-if you don’t work, you should loose your right to breed.
-if you have children, you should be subject to public beatings for cases of abuse - neglect or stupidity towards your child.- people don’t take anything, much less parenting, seriously.
and before you hit me with the killing handicapped people thing again - that’s not what I mean. look at stephen hawking. most handicapped people want to work. now mental retardation is different- they cannot easily work, but it’s not thier fault. many mildly retarded people do hold mineal jobs. I have no problem helping those who cannot help themselves. I too have compassiosn for the unfortunate, but the many years of toilling for those who would abuse my good will has hardened my heart, so I turn my face from the whole system.
I wasn’t born a right wing devil- the world and all it’s scum made me this way.

oh and F_alk- how could you use gen paulus as an example. he was a trophy. for him to live like he did 90,000 of his troops were murdered by russians. they said it was the cold and typhus but - only 5000 ever made it back to germany- and then only long after the war was over.

Again i’m with Yanny (and F_alk) on this one.
I’m not some high and stupid hippy that equates the use and show of appropriate force with baby killing. The gov’t of a “civilized country” to force its citizens into a war before it has been well thought out, debated, analyzed with all consequences taken into account is acting irresponsibly, however. Also, maybe i’m being a little naive here, but why does the American “diplomatic solution” to everything appear to be “comply or we’ll blow you up”? Why did you not have this response to war when it was really important (1939, say)?
Again, if there is some (any) evidence of current evil acting on the part of Saddam requiring nothing less than the use of force, then ok. If the most he may be accused of is “not telling weapons inspectors about weapons he may or may not have” then i think we might slow down the war machine a little until we have something to blow up a bunch of Iraqui’s over (of course if he has nasty weapons and this can be demonstrated, then by all means go in. If your evidence is solid, and not based on Iranian intelligence, and you need a medic, then give me a call.
And alamein - i think you are living in the wrong country - or maybe i am. The beauty of countries like ours is that we have the liberty to examine the facts, speak our opinions about them, debate them, and act on them. I think you may want to confer with DasEwokSS about this as he appears to be in your camp with regards to your form of social democracy.
And Yanny is absolutely right. a 90% increase in taxes and every gun wielding survivalist from Oklahoma to Montana would storm D.C. Even Canadians are not that socialistic.

@cystic:

If the most he may be accused of is “not telling weapons inspectors about weapons he may or may not have”

i don’t understand why everybody keeps saying this. we KNOW FOR SURE that he was chemical/biological weapons, beacuse he hasn’t shown us that he has gotten rid of them! if he had gotten rid of them, do you think he wouldn’t show us that he got rid of them ?!?! this is pure insanity, we know he has weapons yet we sit back and say “he hasn’t done anything wrong. ever. gassing the kurds was just his way of expressing his feelings. of course he doesn’t have chemical/biolgical weapons, beacuse he’s a nice person” if i were in charge, i would invade ASAP.
some would say “but why attack Iraq and not some other country thats broken all these UN regulations or whatever” beacuse i think Iraq and north Korea (who’s comin next) are the only 2 countries in the world (countries, not “peaceful” arabs who try to blow up buildings and kill thousands of people in the process, but thats okay beacuse they have a “peaceful” religion) that would actually try to attack us with chemical/biological and even nuclear weapons.

"but what about israel? shouldn’t we invade them? haven’t they broken UN
Yanny -Strong - This is your first and only warning. Insulting other members like that will result in a ban.

@StrongBad1988:

@cystic:

If the most he may be accused of is “not telling weapons inspectors about weapons he may or may not have”

i don’t understand why everybody keeps saying this. we KNOW FOR SURE that he was chemical/biological weapons, beacuse he hasn’t shown us that he has gotten rid of them! if he had gotten rid of them, do you think he wouldn’t show us that he got rid of them ?!?! this is pure insanity, we know he has weapons yet we sit back and say “he hasn’t done anything wrong. ever. gassing the kurds was just his way of expressing his feelings. of course he doesn’t have chemical/biolgical weapons, beacuse he’s a nice person” if i were in charge, i would invade ASAP.

this is an inappropriate argument. I remember the Gulf war well, and i was all for going in then - particularly given the propaganda sent us from the daughter of a diplomat regarding Iraqui troops killing babies in hospitals (later much of the propaganda was revealled as being false, however i was still in favor of the war, and even considered enlisting to augment Canada’s contribution). What you have done is taken my arguments and twisted them to make me look ridiculous as tho’ i’ve said something i’ve not. Of course it was wrong of him to gas the Kurds, however what Bush is crying for will not change this. Nor do i believe that “he is a nice person”. What does bother me is the idea of unilateral invasion by one country into another sovereign nation because of politico/economic interests. Until it can be demonstrated otherwise, then i can see a connection between George Jr.'s little play, and the one made by Iraq in attempting to re-annex Kuwait in 1991.

some would say “but why attack Iraq and not some other country thats broken all these UN regulations or whatever” beacuse i think Iraq and north Korea (who’s comin next) are the only 2 countries in the world (countries, not “peaceful” arabs who try to blow up buildings and kill thousands of people in the process, but thats okay beacuse they have a “peaceful” religion) that would actually try to attack us with chemical/biological and even nuclear weapons.

"but what about israel? shouldn’t we invade them? haven’t they broken UN
Yanny -Strong - This is your first and only warning. Insulting other members like that will result in a ban.

Our point is that:

1. Iraq is not connected to el queda, and therefore to attack them because of 9/11 is nonsensical as the real perpetrators come from and are openly supported by other countries.
2. These countries, while openly supporting terrorists are political friends of the US, have wealthy yet dictatorial regimes, oppress women far more than Iraq, and yet are cosied up to.

• that if we are truly attacking evil terrorist regimes, then we appear to be at the door of a minor player in this regard, and if we are attacking evil dictatorial and oppressive regimes, then again we are at the door of a minor player.
  I’d like to see a peacekeeping force in Iraq, however the likelihood of this is virtually non-existant thanks to the U.S.'s antagonistic diplomacy.

(i have not been offended in Strongbad’s posting - with the exception of the more inane ones - i take it there was some editing of this one?)