Any war against the USA will get nowhere fast without the Money Islands. Therefore, attacking UK/ANZAC is an absolute must, so that you can rake in that badly needed +20 IPCs.
Japan is too strong?
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Better off putting that factory in Shangtung as opposed to Shanghai. You can get south just as quickly but you are able to reach Manchuria in a turn in case you need to deal with Russians/Americans there :wink:
What China can do is take Yunan back turn 1 and turn 2, thus forcing Japan to keep taking it back, and keep enough troops in Szchewan at the end of turn 2 that Japan has to commit a considerable amount of troops to Yunan if they plan on keeping it from there on out (which they can do if need be). However, if the Siberian troops march into Korea or Manchuria then Japan cannot just say “Screw the north.”
That’s why I believe the key to stopping Japan is to try and make them and do everything, which they cannot. They cannot wipe out China, AND keep the Siberian troops at bay, AND take India, AND fight back the American navy, AND hang onto the money islands, AND hold a 6th VC, etc. Now, the allies have to play a great game to make these things happen, but it CAN be done is the point.
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Japan doesn’t have to do everything to win the game. They just need to destroy China and UK Pac while maintaining deterrent against the US/ANZAC combined fleet… and they can. Then once Germany and Italy inevitably destroy Russia, the Axis have the economic advantage and can impose their will by marching the units that were used against Russia down to Africa, where there will be insufficient resistance to stop them. Russia can’t do anything more on that front than the Chinese can, and by the time the US masses enough ships to be a real threat Japan can match them in builds while maintaining a positional advantage.
Best I can tell, this map is simply a broken game. I would love to learn differently but I am searching and searching and can find no examples of a good Axis player getting beaten.
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Better off putting that factory in Shangtung as opposed to Shanghai. You can get south just as quickly but you are able to reach Manchuria in a turn in case you need to deal with Russians/Americans there :wink:
What China can do is take Yunan back turn 1 and turn 2, thus forcing Japan to keep taking it back, and keep enough troops in Szchewan at the end of turn 2 that Japan has to commit a considerable amount of troops to Yunan if they plan on keeping it from there on out (which they can do if need be). However, if the Siberian troops march into Korea or Manchuria then Japan cannot just say “Screw the north.”
That’s why I believe the key to stopping Japan is to try and make them and do everything, which they cannot. They cannot wipe out China, AND keep the Siberian troops at bay, AND take India, AND fight back the American navy, AND hang onto the money islands, AND hold a 6th VC, etc. Now, the allies have to play a great game to make these things happen, but it CAN be done is the point.
China can’t stack Szechwan to retake Yunnan on C1 because Japan will just attack the stack with its 20 planes and kill it, so the Chinese troops have to cede Yunnan after only 1 turn.
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Better off putting that factory in Shangtung as opposed to Shanghai. You can get south just as quickly but you are able to reach Manchuria in a turn in case you need to deal with Russians/Americans there :wink:
What China can do is take Yunan back turn 1 and turn 2, thus forcing Japan to keep taking it back, and keep enough troops in Szchewan at the end of turn 2 that Japan has to commit a considerable amount of troops to Yunan if they plan on keeping it from there on out (which they can do if need be). However, if the Siberian troops march into Korea or Manchuria then Japan cannot just say “Screw the north.”
That’s why I believe the key to stopping Japan is to try and make them and do everything, which they cannot. They cannot wipe out China, AND keep the Siberian troops at bay, AND take India, AND fight back the American navy, AND hang onto the money islands, AND hold a 6th VC, etc. Now, the allies have to play a great game to make these things happen, but it CAN be done is the point.
China can’t stack Szechwan to retake Yunnan on C1 because Japan will just attack the stack with its 20 planes and kill it, so the Chinese troops have to cede Yunnan after only 1 turn.
Thank you! So Japan can kill of all Chinese units when wanted in R4?
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China can’t stack Szechwan to retake Yunnan on C1 because Japan will just attack the stack with its 20 planes and kill it, so the Chinese troops have to cede Yunnan after only 1 turn.
Want to make sure I’m understanding you:
You’re saying that Japan would stack, say Kwangsi, with all its planes and attack the Chinese units in Szechwan on J2? As the China player, I’d gladly welcome that. Figure Szechwan should have 10 inf and a fighter, meaning 4 hits. If you want to sacrifice four planes to take out some Chinese infantry be my guest.
Not only that, one could easily add some beef to Szechwan on R2 (they could get 2 mechs and 2 tanks there), which now means Japan is looking at a loss of 6 planes on the first round of combat, and 2 more on the next round (Japan’s 20 planes you mentioned should account for 12 hits, leaving two tanks and a fighter). So now Japan is giving up 8 planes to take out Chinese ground units and 4 Russian units? Again, I’d gladly welcome that and I’d wager to guess that, under those conditions, you wouldn’t even launch that attack to begin with, leaving China free to retake Yunan on C2.
But let’s say you still do that attack and lose the 8 planes, fine. What about the 18 Russia troops in Amur that I’m about to move into Korea or Manchuria on turn 3? Let’s say I choose Manchuria: how are you taking that back on J3? It’s possible, but you’d have to commit a ton of resources, including committing transports and just about all your remaining airforce, meaning 6 AA shots for Russia before the battle even begins. After that battle Japan would be down most of its Asian ground force and around 10 planes. If you don’t attack, or the attack fails, now China can spend its money (admittedly not much) on units in Manchuria and start collecting a little each turn, while Russia looms as a major annoyance.
This sort of discussion is why I never buy the idea that the Axis are unstoppable. Are these moves game winners on their own? Probably not. But if the Allies work as a team they can come up with plenty of ways to disrupt the Axis powers.
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You can also wait a turn and bring the Japanese infantry in reach (I never use fighters, but it is a good option when you can wipe the complete Chinese army out in one stroke).
How are you going to defend China in R4? With Russian troops? Not when Germany goes for Barbarossa…
Please tell me if I have overlooked something, but I ALWAYS completely wipe China out in R4. Maybe my opponents are doing something wrong…
My China attack goes as follows:
**J1 you take four Chinese territories: Chahar with 2 inf., Ahnwe with 3 art.+1 Mech+6 Inf, Hunan with 2 inf+1 art (1 inf dead) and Yunnan with 1 inf+1 art (2 inf dead). You place 3/4 inf on Jehol behind this invasion force, and you land 1 armor in Kiangsi. You buy a MIC on Kiangsu.
China can only converge on Shensi to stay alive, and usually takes Yunnan back (if possible): 12 inf+fighter…
J2 Japan takes Yunnan (2 inf), Kweichow (4 art+6 inf+mech+armor), Hopei (1 inf) and Suiyuan (1 inf and 3/4 behind). You buy 3 mech inf on Kiangsu.
China usually goes to Kansu with 16 inf and fighter…
J3 Japan takes Shensi and puts 3 mech inf on Hopei.**
How is China going to escape from this?
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Japan takes ALL the money islands in turn 4. China is beaten with the initial units from set-up plus only 3 Mech Inf. Japan doesn’t have to buy much (factory and 3 Mech = 24 IPC) to take China.
The rest of the IPC’s can be spend on fleet. No way allies have that many ships as Japan in round 4. So when China is down you can concentrate on ANZAC and US…
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It does not have to, japan can kill any 1 country easy at the expense of not attacking others. IF you want to take out china for a few rounds sure UK-Pac will be making 24 a turn, anzac 14 and they will have a good time building up. By the time you get to the money islands they will have a garison on them so it takes you 2 transports each and a big mixed fleet to destroy any transport that does not have half your starting fleet with them.
My thoughts exactly. Said with a smile: the reply from an Axis player cannot always just be “Well then I’d just do A, B and C” without any regard to the fact that the Allied players ALSO get to purchase units, move, etc.
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When I attack in J3 I have 7 transportships. When I attack in J2 I have 5, so yes I take ALL the islands very easily! Certainly by R4 (I usually have them all by R3)!
J1 (26 IPC): 2 transport 1 Minor IC
J2 (40 IPC): 3 Mech Inf, 2 sub, 2 destr => DOW!!!
J3 (48 IPC): 3 Mech Inf, 1 Minor IC, carrier, destroyerWith the US I buy 3 carriers the first round: these are the only units that can help the initial fleet in R4 in SZ 54/Carolines…
Very curious how you all do it!
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In J2 Japan has 12-13 landunits in Kweichow. So I won’t be battling for Yunnan after J3. In J4 China is gone and I put my fleet near Java, so India has to protect itself and can’t move units to China (or lose India itself)…
With how many transport will you threaten Japan? Japan has 21 planes so it won’t even have to buy anything to protect it. But it can buy a few infantry if necessary, or wait a turn to take China…
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With the planes you are right: you have to make choices…
With the landunits in China you are not. Those are all from the startup line! In J3 Japan has 7 transports to take islands (or Japans has 5 when it attacks in J2). These transports don’t have to be fully loaded, because most islands will be empty. There are already 6 inf, 2 art, 1 armor on Japan, and 5 infantry on the other islands. That is more then enough!
I can always take Yunnan back with mech-infantry I buy at French Indo China…
If your fleet is not in SZ 54 Japan needs only to move its transports to Java etc. The rest of the fleet will be at the Philipines. So if you move to Korea it wil be sunk completely…
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Those planes cannot be on carriers and fight in china and be on japan at the same turn.
Those 13 land units are needed on your transports to take islands remember. So you wont have that much in china.
You keep telling you can counter anything because you got a lot of units but those units cannot be used everywhere at the same time. The whole point of the allies isnt to attack you where you are strongest but to attack you where you are weakest. If the russian 18 inf deside to take machuria while your fleet is off java and the US fleet parks itself off japan and takes korea india can pretty much go turtle up for 1 round the next round your fleet wont be off java anymore and china will have units in the north for a change.India in this scenario can still build mechs and invade into china with the help of their airforce and at the same time defend india. And if your fleet is off Java what is there to prevent me from moving the US fleet next to japan and take korea? No your fleet cannot do it and your 21 planes will be only 12 by this time as there will be 6 on your carriers and chances are you lost 3 somewhere.
Thank you Shadow for expressing my exact sentiments when this discussion pops up. All of the arguments I’ve made for the Allies not being completely outclassed in this game come back to one fundamental principle: the Axis cannot do everything at once. As the Allies, your job is not easy, but it’s simple: make the Axis do too much. Japan has a deadly airforce, but it can’t be in five or six places at the same time.
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The Axis (specifically Japan) might not be able to do everything at once, but they are able to do at least 1, usually multiple things very well. If multiple Allied powers put stacks in range of the Japanese air force on the account that Japan can’t hit them all, Japan will just hit the most valuable/troublesome one (usually US navy if you advance to Carolines too early), come out positive and then swing around to the other stacks after a couple turn delay, leaving the Allies crippled in some place for minor gains elsewhere.
It’s also the reason its worth it to airblast the Chinese Rd2 in Szechwan if they stack there; yeah you lose 4 planes, but now you don’t even have to worry about the Chinese giving you one of these “split-decisions” later. -
“give the opponent so many good targets that he can’t hit them all” is not a winning strategy IMHO
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Reading all of this I stil conclude that Japan is too strong.
Arguments against that are not convincing to me:
- be creative as allies;
- Japan cannot do everything at once.
Let’s say Japan DOW in J3 and takes all the treasure islands/Philipines in one go with 7 transports (a strategy I sometimes use)…
Can anyone explain what to do (what to buy or where to place particular units) to make it difficult for Japan? As I said the Chinese army will be defeated in R4 by placing 13-14 landunits in Kweichow in J2. How can this be prevented for example? And how many allied ships will contest the Japanese fleet in let’s say R5? (In J4 Japan has at least 20 fleet units and perhaps 15 aircraft, without it’s buy in that round: 35 units). And where can it do the most harm? Does UK DOW Japan in UK2?
Thank you!
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Someone else earlier said that you don’t have to beet Japan on the Pac side, you just can’t lose.
What he meant by this is you defend Sidney and Hawaii at all costs (known as the 4th map because that’s the line where the maps join on the Pac side). Both Sidney and Hawaii are difficult to take, much less hold for a round with a US player with a pulse.
What you try to do is stabilize the situation as best you can, and delay the Orange Godzilla for as long as you can. I generally will buy Pac w/USA the first couple turns (prob a bit more as the game goes on). You don’t look to over power Japan necessarily, you’re looking more to get into a stand off or get him to buy carriers. When he buys carriers and you are in a stand off it ties up his air power (plus he isn’t buying as many land units). You try to snipe an island or trade dd blockers with all Pac powers etc….and if you get a chance to strike take it. China is going to fall pretty fast in most games unless Japan gets bad dice in the first Yunnan battle. As China you trade Yunnan a couple times if you can, then back up to the acme Chinese wall at the Russia boarder in a defending retreat (meaning you make small attacks if able to take out weakly defended Japanese territories that are in reach. When you get to the Russian boarder the Japanese have 2 options, hit the Chinese stack and lose the bulk of their ground units, or side step you to give the Russians more pressure.
While all this is going on UK India has either bulked up to make the Japanese hit on Calcutta hurt (costing all the Japanese ground units and some air), or have made preparations to evacuate it to Persia/Caucasus.You might even decide trade India by pulling out to counter attack (the last one sucks, but by time Japan is taking India there isn’t going to be more then 5 IPCs left to hand over the second time and it will delay Japan from building there for a round plus you get to kill some Japanese ground units.
Back to China, once your China stack gets to the Russian boarder much depends on how things are going on the Euro side. If UK has done its job and the RAF (6 to 10 ftrs) is sitting in Moscow, the Germans have been delayed from taking the Russian capital for 1-3 turns (maybe longer depending on what the Euro axis have there). Can the Russians send an AA gun and a couple inf and temporarily spare some mobile units/air for China (not to get killed, but to delay the Japanese from hitting the Chinese stack because the odds are like 20% for them to do so) There also should be UK mobile units in the picture coming up through Russia and could divert into China’s back door as well. It is in Russians best interest to help defend China, but you need to have that planned out. Is it one of the retreating Siberian AA guns, or do you send one from Moscow and the Siberians will be replacing it?
The allies need to tie both maps together and use all the resources at there disposal. Unlike the axis, the allies need a cooperative effort to have a chance.
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Thank you Bill that was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for!
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The Axis (specifically Japan) might not be able to do everything at once, but they are able to do at least 1, usually multiple things very well. If multiple Allied powers put stacks in range of the Japanese air force on the account that Japan can’t hit them all, Japan will just hit the most valuable/troublesome one (usually US navy if you advance to Carolines too early), come out positive and then swing around to the other stacks after a couple turn delay, leaving the Allies crippled in some place for minor gains elsewhere.
It’s also the reason its worth it to airblast the Chinese Rd2 in Szechwan if they stack there; yeah you lose 4 planes, but now you don’t even have to worry about the Chinese giving you one of these “split-decisions” later.I still think Szechwan can be defended well enough that, as the Allies, I’d welcome Japan to waste air on it, but otherwise I don’t disagree with most of this. Japan can certainly do a few things at a time and be very effective about it, and the Axis will absolutely win the game if Japan plays well and the Allies don’t coordinate.
What I’m disputing in this thread is the prevailing argument that every single Allied move in the Pacific can be countered with “Well, I’d just take my planes there.”
We’ve had some spirited discussions in our messages to each other. All respect, I’m still perplexed by some of your statements. If you JDOW3 you’re telling me you’re going to take and hold all the DEI, still have enough ground units eliminate China the next round and hold off any successful counter attack from Allied ships?
Let me ask: in the JDOW3 scenario you gave, where is your fleet positioned at the end of J2/start of J3? Paint the picture for me; Japan just collected it’s money at the end of its second turn. Where is your fleet, where are your planes and what is on the ground in China? Let’s assume Russia has the 18 inf and 2 AA guns in Amur, Japan took back Yunan, China has enough to take it on its turn, but turn 3 Japan will take and hold it, Anzac has Java and Sumatra, just a couple of guys on each.
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At the end of J2 my main fleet is at the Carolines, with 2 transports. I buy 2 transports to take Philipines and Kwantung. And 2 transports are in SZ 36 or even 37 (depending on allied moves of course). 1 transport is in SZ 20. Next turn the take most of the islands…
Of course I could relocate my fleet according to allied movement. Where would your fleet be?
And 13 landunits are in Kweichow. How are you gonna counter those with China?
About the Japanese air power argument: I know they only can attack once per turn, but JAPAN decides were and when they attack, NOT the allies. That is the main issue here: Japan holds all or at least most strings. So you cannot say the allies are going to do this or that: JAPAN decides if they let the allies do this or that. JAPAN makes the choices, and I think they can both take China and hold the treasure islands. If they are lucky in R4, but by R5 they should have both in their pockets…
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Thanks Tolstoj. Alright, let’s look at the Allied options and ask some questions
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First, I’m going to steal a question from ShadowHAwk: what do you have in SZ 36/37 to protect those transports? You need enough there to stop a UK/Anzac 1-2 punch. SZ37 especially would require a lot of protection, as, in this scenario, India could hit it with a BB, DD (I’m assuming the C went over to Africa) and 3 planes, followed by AZ hitting it with a DD, C and 3 fighters
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So let’s go with your fleet at Caroline and you have transports in SZ36 with some escorts. Right off the bat I know that as India (or Anzac) and I’m doing the following non-combat move: DD in SZ 37, preventing Japan from taking Sumatra on J3, assuring that Japan can’t get the DEI in round 3. Japan can target the rest of the islands J4, J5 like you said, but in between you’re gonna have Anzac and US hitting those islands, trying to pick off sections of the Japanese navy, etc.
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As far as China goes, take back Yunan and non-combat as follows: if Japanese planes are in Kwangsi, retreat to Shensi, where the planes could not reach (save for the str bombers). China would be looking at roughly 12 inf and a fighter (not counting what Russia may come in to help with) and Japan’s counter attack would mostly be 1’s. If Japan has their planes in a spot that can reach Shensi, head back to Sikang and eventually north. Japan can absolutely drive China back, no doubt. But China can hang around and be a pest
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Another China idea: If Russia can walk into Manchuria on R3, or take it with ease, China could save its income for a turn (in my games China usually makes 15 turn 1 and 12 turn 2) and on C3 purchase 9 inf and place them in Manchuria. What a pain it would be for Japan to kick that force out of the area
You’re right about the Japanese air force being able to dictate where it goes. The argument is simply that it cannot be everywhere at once, meaning the Allies can make progress on some fronts. Will it be enough? Maybe, maybe not.
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