If you are playing Revised with a bid then one possibility is to add a 2nd G transport to the Med fleet instead of adding units to Libya/Algeria. It doubles the transport capacity and can make the Russian player weary on an amphibious attack on the Caucasus/Ukraine.
Like mentioned above the drawback is that additional units sent to Africa won’t be used on the Eastern front and the 2nd transport will be sunk with the rest of the fleet if the Allies decide to do so.
Germany Navy, Again
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My point was that you don’t move from baltic sea. I have always bought AC for germans, from my second time playing as germans when I noticed from Japan side how powerful tool it was. And I have played from the moment this game hit the stores :-D
My whole game German Naval purchase if I am going for Moscow finish is
-AC
-1Dest
-1-2 TransDestroyer I buy because the mediterran fleet is very easy to sink with planes, if you only have BB to shield it.
If I were thinking from moving from baltic sea I would maybe do something like this. Turn 1 I would move to free Anglo-Egypt, with BB and 1trans and taking the UK destroyer down, after that I would move back. And on Turn 3 I would try linking the fleets, you can watch turn 1 what UK will do and USA, where they buy their first purchases and after that decide what to do + turn 2 you still have time to equip your baltic fleet with maybe 1sub/trans and destroyer to give it more survivability and if they make mistake on turn 2 transports + planes to attack UK you will have and after linking your fleet you would have 3 transports, which will make it Turn 3 UK must attack or fear of losing UK :wink:
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Thamor…
Your last post was confusing… you said “Baltic” fleet, but then refered to a BB and Africa, which would be Med fleet.
Please clarify.
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I have played 3 mock games using the German merge. In all 3 games, I employed a KGF strategy. I had Russia taking both WRussia and the Ukraine in all games. I had Russia hold the line against the Germans, and let Japan do as they may. I had GB taking Norway out of the gate in all games. I also had GB buying a second AC in the second round with the German Juggernaut brewing in SZ7, and always was able to get at least 1 american plane to help defend. I had the US holing up in Brazil the first round and coming into algeria the second round in force. I had Japan playing the aggressive China first, Sinkiang second while making gains in the north and south as well. The Eastern front stalled in all games with a lack of ground expenditure by the Germans in the 1st round, and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round. In the first 2 games, I had the German fleet splash the British fleet in the 3rd round. This was accomplished with moderate losses. The Germans were always left with a carrier, 2 planes, and a BB(and 2 planes and a bomber to the mainland). On the Brit 3rd turn, I bought an AC, a tranny, and some inf. I also brought the Indian fleet to meet them. The US landed 2 planes in the AC and brought 2 destroyers and a couple a trannies. Ultimately, the German fleet was destroyed, and the Allies started making headway into Europe. The first game… Russia fell in 6 and Germany fell in the 7th round… Russia was liberated in round 11. The second game saw Russia and Germany fall in 7, with Russia being liberated in 10. The third game I chose to sink the US fleet in Algeria. The reamaing US fleet again merged with the sizable Brit fleet in round 3. The subsequent attack sunk both fleets. The Brits were back in business by round 5 with the Indian fleet formaing the backbone of the Brit Navy… Russia fell in round 6 with Germany falling again in 7… Russia liberated in 11. It appears that keeping the German planes in a position to help sink the on coming fleets, and keeping them off the Russian front tipped the scales in Allies favor. Keep in mind the planes were necessary, or the result would have been heavy German losses in the first major naval battles. Coupled with a lack of initial ground units, the Russians were able to hold just long enough in all cases. Germany was able to secure Africa in all cases… It had a hard time capturing and keeping territory on the Russian front.
Wilk
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and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.
How??? They have 2 trannis to start… 4 units can be moved…
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Coupled with a lack of initial ground units, the Russians were able to hold just long enough in all cases. Germany was able to secure Africa in all cases…. It had a hard time capturing and keeping territory on the Russian front.
Play a mock game where you don’t buy any German navy and get “plenty” of initial ground troops… You will find that you will stall even faster on the Russian front, because the UK and US will be dropping troops all over you really fast. If Germany can secure Africa, then Germany should be able to hold out until Japan wipes out Russia. It seems like Germany isn’t properly retreating and forming stacks if he controls that much land and has stalled the US/UK navy for that long.
If you think you can siphon enough troops and airforce with Germany to crush Russia early and ignore the Allies, then the Allies are doing something very wrong.
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meant second round… 8 units in the first 2 rounds… enough to stall a German offensive without ground purchases in first round.
@ncscswitch:
and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.
How??? They have 2 trannis to start… 4 units can be moved…
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In each game, Germany was able to break into Egypt safely in the 3rd round, expanding in the 4th round. You can’t bring troops from Europe into Egypt in the first round when you are bring the tranny West to meet the rest of the fleet. And you can’t bring planes to help in a 2nd round attack of Egypt and get them into an attacking position on the British fleet in round 3. The Germans were able to take Egypt by ground force in the 3rd round. So they don’t have the extra IPCs the first 3 rounds like you were probably thinking. I should have been more clear. My bad.
Wilk
meant second round…Â Â 8 units in the first 2 rounds…Â Â enough to stall a German offensive without ground purchases in first round.
@ncscswitch:
and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.
How??? They have 2 trannis to start… 4 units can be moved…
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I don’t see where the Brits could land safely in the first 2 rounds if the Germans start with a carrier purchase and have 2 fighters on it, plus at least 2 fighters in Western Europe and probably a bomber.
If the Brits land in Norway in the first 2 turns obviously they’re going to get counterattacked super hard.
If the Brits land in Archangel/Karelia, then the German response is going to be 4 fighters + 1 bomber. 2 fighters from the carrier move 2 spaces to attack them, and 2 fighters from Western Europe are declared to land on the carrier which will move left and up to pick them up.
The Brits can’t land safely in the first 2 turns unless the German navy is moved out of range. You do not have to deal with 8 UK ground troops stalling you.
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You would send the planes naked? A good way of losing fighters… Where will the troops come from? If you pull them from Germany, the transport won’t be able to move to sz7 in the second round. If the Russians leave just one inf in Karelia in the first round, you can’t bring anything from eastern europe to aid in the counter. And yes… that would be four dead units… and the Brits bring in another 4 in the second round. If you are using planes to kill Brits, they aren’t being used on the Russian front. The Russians can stalemate that front for at least 4rounds since their supply lines are shorter than the Germans, especially if the fighters are being used to kill Brits in Norway.
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I always attack the 3 troops on Norway(plane has probably been moved to the AC after an attack somewhere on Russian front) in the first round with 2inf, a cannon, a tank, 2 fighters, and bombardment. Usually, three brits units are left standing with Norway in Brit control. Most Germans wouldn’t give up planes to hit those troops. 4 units come the next round if Germany decides to counter. They won’t be able to counter with ground troops if they wish to stockpile the fleet at sz7 in the second round.
Wilk
You would send the planes naked? A good way of losing fighters… Where will the troops come from? If you pull them from Germany, the transport won’t be able to move to sz7 in the second round. If the Russians leave just one inf in Karelia in the first round, you can’t bring anything from eastern europe to aid in the counter. And yes… that would be four dead units… and the Brits bring in another 4 in the second round. If you are using planes to kill Brits, they aren’t being used on the Russian front. The Russians can stalemate that front for at least 4rounds since their supply lines are shorter than the Germans, especially if the fighters are being used to kill Brits in Norway.
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It just seems to me that in each game I have played… After the remainder of the German fleet is dispatched in the 4th round, the UK is able to invade western E. in force, and the US is in a position to hard reinforce after the attack. If Russia has supplied just enough pressure in the East, Germany doesn’t have enough firepower to take Western E back. The Brits will reinforce Western E again, and build a factory, and the US hard reinforces again in the 6th round. The Germans won’t try to counter because GB will be in a position to assault Germany directly if they don’t stockpile some ground units. The 7th round is an all out assault by the British(which Germany holds). Britain builds on the factory. Then the US follows with a secondary assault that typically finishes Germany off, then the US drops off more units in Western Europe. It seems the Japan always takes at least 6 rounds to capture Moscow because of the long supply lines. Even if Moscow falls the round before Germany, Japan isn’t fast enough to reinforce. Trading Moscow for Berlin is a win for the Allies. I am merelt testing out the theory of leaving Africa for a couple of rounds while you merge the fleets. It seems to me Germany needs to get into the money well of Africa early. And the earlier the better.
Wilk
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the UK is able to invade western E. in force
Why isn’t Germany defending it adequately?
It’s very easy to predict how many troops can hit Western Europe, because they all come from transports. If you have a stack of like 15+ infantry then how is the UK cracking it? Especially if you have Africa money to boost your income?
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At this point, the UK will have 5 transports in the water. Remember, with the Germans not getting into Africa immediately, the UK will be collecting at least 33 IPCS(Norway) a round for at least the first 3 rounds. And, I also mentioned futher in my paragraph… If the Russians are applying pressure… The Russians can apply pressure to Germany if the planes are kept in the West to fight Naval battles(planes that also get lost in Naval battles). Britain with some luck can bring 5 inf, 5 cannons, 2-3 fighters, a bomber, and bomabrdment against Germany in Western Europe. If the Germans are pulling units to fight Russians(they would be steadily losing IPCs if they aren’t), they can’t be guarding Western Europe. Letting Russians consolidate their early land grabs can be just as deadly. Is it even mathematically possible to keep all your eastern territory, and stockpile in western europe, when you don’t have the African budget the first 3 rounds(by virtue of the SZ7 strategy)? I have yet to see Germany win a game without getting into Africa early in any of the games I have played. This is why I played the games… And posted what I have found to this point. Rather than attacking my results… Play the games out and post the results. I think the strategy has viability. I am just looking for a way to make it work.
Wilk
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I question your strategy seriously. How is the UK sitting in Norway for the first 3 rounds? Unless he wishes to sacrifice his navy, this simply isn’t feasible if the Germans have a carrier in the Baltic. You can invade it with 2 transports worth of stuff on Round 1, but then the Baltic navy will come in and sweep your transports away, which is a horrible trade. It becomes very difficult to kill the Baltic navy if you sacrifice your navy on UK’s second turn.
At this point, the UK will have 5 transports in the water.
At what point? After he magically destroyed the Baltic fleet without any casualties? What if I move out the Baltic fleet to block Western Europe? You might be able to kill it, but you lost probably all your transports.
I’m not attacking your results, I’m attacking your strategy.
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The Russians can apply pressure to Germany if the planes are kept in the West to fight Naval battles(planes that also get lost in Naval battles).
That’s the beauty of the carrier. You have 2 fighters that can help with any of the German fronts, and the bomber is going to be in range as well. Plus, any fighters in Western Europe can attack Karelia and return to Western Europe. I wouldn’t sacrifice fighters against the Allied navy unless I really thought it was necessary or I could do it without sacrificing any.
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It isn’t my strategy…  Someone else came up with the idea about merging the fleets at SZ7 in the second round as an Axis strategy.  I am saying that fleet won’t last long if GB keeps putting AC’s in the water, and the US plants planes on them, and bring its destroyers.  The merge strategy leaves the Suez open in round 1 since Germany doesn’t attack Egypt on Jordan in the 1st round. Germany in the 3rd round has a choice to make…  Sink the Brit fleet with its 2-3 trannies in the North(a fleet which can grow of the follwoing round to parity) or the US destroyers with the four trannies that have taken Algeria in force.  In my games, I attacked(and sank) the Brit fleet in the 3rd round off of Norway, taking considerable losses…  In the same 3rd round, GB has the ability to drop an AC and a tranny in SZ7.  The Indian fleet consolidates with its tranny.  The US drops 2 fighters on the AC and consolidates the destroyers.  GB has the ability to drop 3 trannies  in round 4.  There are the 5 trannies for the assault in round 5.  You will have 2 fighters from the indian plane…  and the plane picked by the indian fleet on their pass through the Med.  The Bomber might survive to this point as well.  The UK can also slowly build ground units on the island while the navy plays out.  They always had 5inf and 5 cannons at the beginning of the 5th round.  I am not just pulling these numbers out of thin air.
Wilk
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They always had 5inf and 5 cannons at the beginning of the 5th round
That’s plenty of time to get enough defense in Western Europe. 5 rounds is a long time.
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You would send naked fighters against Britis ground forces in Norway and Karelia? Â In German merge strategy, the Baltic tranny moves with the fleet into SZ7 on G2. Â Therefore, you can’t bring ground units to protect your attacking fighters if you want to go after the British units in Norway on G2 or G3. Â The Russians don’t have the units to push from the North… Â They will push from the south. Â The British would only be a moderate distraction in the North. Â They have prortection from the water in Norway in round 2(brits still have control of Norway), and all of them(6-7 units) move into Karelia on GB3(No the Germans won’t stockpile in Karelia since they are outnumbered in the south).
Again… Â the German merge strategy is not mine. Â I am only looking for a way to make it viable. Â So far, I have found the Allies can counter it.
Wilk
The Russians can apply pressure to Germany if the planes are kept in the West to fight Naval battles(planes that also get lost in Naval battles).
That’s the beauty of the carrier. You have 2 fighters that can help with any of the German fronts, and the bomber is going to be in range as well. Plus, any fighters in Western Europe can attack Karelia and return to Western Europe. I wouldn’t sacrifice fighters against the Allied navy unless I really thought it was necessary or I could do it without sacrificing any.
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The question is… Can you do it without the money being generated from Africa, with the Russians pushing in the south(knocking you back 5-6 IPCs from round 1), the British stinking their nose in the North(taking another 3 IPCs round 1), taking heavy losses while sinking the British fleet. In the games I have played to this point… You can’t cover all sides. Please read all my posts over again. I shouldn’t have to post how every round went for you get an idea that Germany was being attacked in the South, in the North, in the Med, and in the North Sea. The US was pushing 35IPCs into Germany every round, GB was pushing 33, and the Russians pushed 27-30. Every round for the 4 rounds… After that the USSR had to back off due to the Japanese. However, by that time… The German fleet was destroyed. The US had the capacity to ferry at least 6 units a round into Europe, and GB could ferry 4(with 10 being possible in round 5). The Germans were only producing at about 35 a round the first 3 rounds since the Med tranny never ferried troops to Egypt. They ferried to algeria which was overrun by the 8 american troops in US2. If the Germans moved the algerian forces and libyan forces in egypt in G3, they could get into africa at that point. The means Germany was being outbuilt roughly 95 to 35 in the first 3 rounds. That is what I am wondering… Can Germany last 8 rounds being outproduced 60IPCs the first 4 rounds, and being outbuilt by 30IPCs over the next 4? I am not seeing it as a possibility.
Wilk
You would send naked fighters against Britis ground forces in Norway and Karelia? Â In German merge strategy, the Baltic tranny moves with the fleet into SZ7 on G2. Â Therefore, you can’t bring ground units to protect your attacking fighters if you want to go after the British units in Norway on G2 or G3. Â The Russians don’t have the units to push from the North… Â They will push from the south. Â The British would only be a moderate distraction in the North. Â They have prortection from the water in Norway in round 2(brits still have control of Norway), and all of them(6-7 units) move into Karelia on GB3(No the Germans won’t stockpile in Karelia since they are outnumbered in the south).
Again… Â the German merge strategy is not mine. Â I am only looking for a way to make it viable. Â So far, I have found the Allies can counter it.
Wilk
The Russians can apply pressure to Germany if the planes are kept in the West to fight Naval battles(planes that also get lost in Naval battles).
That’s the beauty of the carrier. You have 2 fighters that can help with any of the German fronts, and the bomber is going to be in range as well. Plus, any fighters in Western Europe can attack Karelia and return to Western Europe. I wouldn’t sacrifice fighters against the Allied navy unless I really thought it was necessary or I could do it without sacrificing any.
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It’s so strange how you easily take out Soviets alone with Germans, I don’t say that it’s not possible. But your group is playing really badly if soviets can’t keep the Germans off, when Germans are even using their planes in naval battles.
Let’s make a summary of this strategy.
S1
-Soviet sub to block baltic fleet
G1
-AC purchased to Baltic, 2figs land there
-Med fleet move to merge with baltic fleet in sz7, it has 1bb 1trans 1sub
-Figs try to destroy soviet sub
-Bomber + 1fig help to take out anglo-egypt so 1inf 1arm 1fig 1bomb.
-Is the UK destroyer in med taken out with planes? And what planes? If 1fig is used in anglo-egypt, you can only attack it with 1fig, not so good odds. If 2figs used, you would take a high gamble in anglo-egypt, with 1inf 1arm 1bomb.Egypt would look really bad, but anyway my point was how to counter the merging of those fleets.
UK1
-AC purchased, 1fig to land on AC purchased, 4ipc saved or 1art purchased.
-UK fleet form up in sz7, 1transport moves to replace soviet sub if it’s destroyed by the Germans
-UK indian fleet move to med if the route is open, or optional they open the route by attacking anglo-egypt with 3inf 1fig.
-UK airforce 2figs, 1bomber attack the German med fleet, 2 rounds of combat is enough, to destroy the transport and sub, after that consolidate your bomber and with luck 1fighter back to england.USA this is really optional, either buy something to try hold the Japan steamhorse or full KGF tactic. I will go with full KGF.
USA1
-Buy 1fig, 2trans, 1dest, 1art
-Attack the med fleet on the coast of algeria, 2trans, 1dest, 1bomb. Because the british have already destroyed at minimum 1sub/1trans or both of them. The lonely BB is easy prey. If there is only the BB, take 1inf with you to take algeria. After this attack the med fleet should be totally wasted, freeing africa for UK, and keeping the fleets from merging.
-Bomber moves to UK and 1fig is placed on UK AC, so on sz7 there will be 1-2trans, 1BB, 1AC + 2figs(UK&USA figs)
-USA Hawaii fighter moves to russia, West Coast fighter moves to East Coast or Alaska, where it will fly to russia.
-All Purchases to East Coast, leave Japan to ramble on it’s own, it will take a long time before it can do anything really bad, USA could start moving it’s 1trans, 1BB to Atlantic sea, and panama destroyer is moved to Eastern coastS2 I won’t do any land battle moves
G2 Now this is really hard for germans, what should they do. They have the option to waste british fleet, but with great loss of AF. Well what here has always been done, you sacrifice your planes heedlessly.
-1 fig is used to destroy the UK trans or soviet sub if it really survived G1
-2 Subs 4figs 1bomb attack the UK fleet. (1fig can’t move from Libya to sz7)7hit attack force against 6hit UK fleet. Germans will waste this fleet on round 1, but the fighters survive or if the germans continue to round to destroy everything then most likely germany will be after this battle lost 2subs 2-3figs. The loss of this navy isn’t so bad to UK.
-Baltic fleet moves to sz7?? Or I don’t think so, what is the point anymore when the med fleet have been wasted by the allies.
UK2
-Buy AC, 1trans, 2inf placed to sz8, where USA fleet merges with this new UK fleet
-Bomber maybe SBR or moved to Russia to slow down Japan juggernaut, it can always come back from there to help take out the rest of German fleet when the time comes.USA2
-East Coast should have 2figs now if the West coast fig moved there, this figs move to UK carrier and all surviviving USA Navy consolidate on sz8, where plans for D-Day can begin.
-BB and trans moved to East coast
-Buy 2trans 2inf 2arm, 8ipc save or 1subWhat do you think of this? I have always thought the merging of med fleet and baltic is fools job, it the Allies know what they are doing. Egypt is in firm control of allies, because of India fleet and troops moving there, with those inf and 1fig they can take africa to UK, to replace loss of India to Japan. Germans have lost a lot of planes in taking out UK fleet, weakening their power greatly and the soviet front looks very good for allies who have after turn 2. 1UK trans and 2USA trans ready to sail where they want them, most likely to Norway where they will disrupt the german armies marching towards moscow. 1BB 2trans 1sub is ready to sail from east coast to threaten the Baltic fleet and 3-4 figs + 1-2 bombers will be the Force that takes it down and the Germans don’t have much choice in that.
I can explain this hand to hand if you don’t understand, but you should from this long post. Do you play with national advantages? We always play with 1random advantage, only rule that we have changed is that USA don’t get Super Bombers, if USA player rolls number 6, he can choose the advantage from the last 5.
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