Openning Germany Move

[Guest]

OK, now that I argued a strategy that I now know can;t work, would anyone care to blast a few holes in my “traditional” openning Germany move?

Game is NOT RR, and folks I have played with invariably go for Eastern Europe and blow up my Baltic navy.

Build:  All INF plus 1 armor

Air/Naval Combat:
Atlantic Sub and bomber to Gibraltar Battleship (ALWAYS sunk)
Battleship and Transport (carrying Southern INF) to Egypt (sub usually sunk without losses)
Western Fighter to Canada transport (almost always destroyed trasnport)
3 fighters (and baltic sub if by a miracle it survives) against UK Battleship and Transport (and Russia navy if not used in Baltic, usually is)

Land comabt:
1 INF to open territory in west Africa.  Tank blitz central africa and into Egypt, 1 INF plus 2 on amphib to Egypt
4 Germany INF, 2 Germany tanks, 1 Western tank against Eastern; plus all Ukraine forces except 1 INF.

My usual results:
No UK navy on the board except India transport.
Eastern taken back.
Western with 2 INF and fig deters US amphib on US1
Remaining AF consolidated in Germany (usually 1 or 2 figs and bomber)
Build is 2 INF Southern, balance in Germany

Germany is +4 IPC’s, and core territories well defended with a strong INF w/ some armor build coming again in G2

Comments?  Suggestions?

[aaFiendish]

Seems fine to me. There is some question over attacking egypt, as india can hit you on the counter. It weakens india of course, but it effectively removes germany from africa. Most people will tell you that germany cannot realistically hold africa in a no-bid game anyhow, at least without the axis diverting forces from other well needed arenas. I’ll try and avoid taking us off track with mentioning japan.

What does your opponent go for eastern europe with? I believe that taking eastern europe as the allies is imprudent, at best. If you take it with armor, even worse. Russia gives up their only offense besides fighters on the first round (besides the east armor). The trade ends up not being in their favor. They spend 33 + 35 = 24 IPCs, and germany spends 33 + 15 + 1*10 = 24. Russia will probably kill another inf on the counter, but I’d rather bleed russia than germany any day. Russia really needs that armor, germany has plenty of armor and fighters to spare. Assuming they use one ftr in the baltic, that leaves them a 90% chance of taking eastern. Now, that’s a great percentage and all, but even if they take they are taking with 3 or 2 armor, probably. Munch munch. Their attack against finland is now weak. You could always pull out of finland into sweden. Yes it costs you 3 ipcs, but you will probably get to take back finland for 2. If it is lightly defended you could probably even do this twice, gaining yourself TIME, more IPCs than neutral violation, and a better unit tradeoff than if they sat there on defense. If russia wants to attack you they have to march in there before they can use their fighters. You have also made finland/norway a very brief deadzone.

Anyhow, your moves are pretty much what I’d do. I sometimes use my transport to move infantry south like you do, but send my bb against the UK for a suicide mission. I can then use the sub in the UK seas, as I would much rather lose the sub than a fighter. You could then use the bomber elsewhere or help take out the bb still if you wished. Sure you might lose your battleship, but were you really going to ressurect the kriegsmarine?

[Guest]

@aaFiendish:

Anyhow, your moves are pretty much what I’d do. I sometimes use my transport to move infantry south like you do, but send my bb against the UK for a suicide mission. I can then use the sub in the UK seas, as I would much rather lose the sub than a fighter. You could then use the bomber elsewhere or help take out the bb still if you wished. Sure you might lose your battleship, but were you really going to ressurect the kriegsmarine?

My only issue with using subs against UK based navy is that they are sitting ducks against the RAF:  once in UK waters, they are GONE, blown away by UK fighters on their way to Russia.

By bringing the sub off Spain out of the Atlantic and into the Med, the only way UK can kill it round 1 is to use the bomber, and getting UK to use their bomber that way instead of on a Strategic Bombing or supporting an amphib is a GOOD thing in my book.  And if they ignore it, then I get to team it up with the tranport and Battleship already in the med… a little extra cannon fodder for when the RAF comes after my Med navy.

That of course assumes that the sub survives its encounter with the Gibraltar Battleship… something that happens just less than half the time.

Also, by using sub/bomber on the battleship in Gibraltar, I guarantee (almost) that my bomber is going to fly home to Germany rather than being lost to BB.  And I view the bomber as more critical to Germany than 1 fighter.

So… I use sub/bomber against Gibraltar battelship, and fighters against UK and Labrador fleets.

The result is that UK DEFINITELY loses all navy on G1 (except that India transport, unless Japan gets it), and that I lose only 1 or 2 figs in the process.  That leaves me with 2-3 (depending on Russia’s openning move) figs AND a bomber to blast the second round UK/US navy, a job made easier by knowing the Gibraltar Battleship is not going to sail for UK waters for transport fleet defense.  Maybe not enough to get all of the next Allied navy in UK waters, but certainly enough to get the transports and slow down amphib assaults by the US and UK against Germany AT LEAST one more turn.

[madscientist]

I played against an opponent who did almost the same thing. I did practically everything you did, except that I didn’t attack Egypt with the BB and trn and 2 inf, instead I just used the bomber and the inf and tank from Libya, and landed the bomber in Libya. I transported a tank to Libya in non-combat. I sent all inf in range to Eastern Europe (except 1 inf in Ukraine), and took out the UK Egypt sub with the ftr from Ukraine. I went after the Med BB with my BB and the ftr from WEU, leaving two ftrs and 1 sub for taking out the BB and trn in British waters. I landed 3 ftrs in WEU, and moved 1 tank there from Germany as well, so as to deter an attack.

This worked well for me for a while, but I usually didn’t have that many ftrs left. Then we started using bids and I could use the bomber for taking out navy.

[DarthMaximus]

Yeah, in no bid, I won’t attack Egy on G1, for the reasons mentioned.

1)  it is easily countered by UK thus thwarting almost all future blitzing plans
2)  if you wait till G2, UK may vacate it, or move more troops there for you to kill

I will ignore any Russian ships left in the Baltic.

I kill the UK Canada trn
All ships in UK sz
UK BB in med
UK sub in Med

I usually lose 1 ftr in the process (I think).

I’ll keep the BB and trn in Central med and transport 2 inf (or 1 arm) to Lib.  Then on G2 hit Egy with 5 inf (if I still have my trn), arm, BB shot, and bom.  Unless UK vacated,

I’ll take back EE and kill the Russian armor.

I also may buy 10 inf and save 2, although I do do 9 inf, 1 arm a lot as well.

[Guest]

@DarthMaximus:

Yeah, in no bid, I won’t attack Egy on G1, for the reasons mentioned.

1)  it is easily countered by UK thus thwarting almost all future blitzing plans
2)  if you wait till G2, UK may vacate it, or move more troops there for you to kill

I used to be a fan of the Egypt assault.  But I have become fond of the “open territory blitz” in Africa.  Allows you to get ALMOST as many additional IPC’s in round 1, and allows for additional INF in Africa for retention/expansion.

@DarthMaximus:

I also may buy 10 inf and save 2, although I do do 9 inf, 1 arm a lot as well.

I have experimented with a LOT of different builds as Germany.  the 9 and 1 is my “usual”, but I do occasionally do the 8 and tranny also… depends on how Russia is being played.

[madscientist]

What do you guys do about a Power Africa bid? You know, if the German player bids 21 (no RR) and places 7 inf on Libya?

[Guest]

@madscientist:

What do you guys do about a Power Africa bid? You know, if the German player bids 21 (no RR) and places 7 inf on Libya?

While I have never played with bids, based on the strategies and moves I have seen here as well as my own strategies, I would handle it this way:

US would use initial transport to move 2 INF to French West Africa.  Buy would be 3 trans plus troops.
Round 2 US move would be 4 INF and a tank landing in Africa by US.  Also possibility of a fighter flying in to land in French West if initial US landing was successful and if UK naval situation allows for it.

Continued US forces into Africa on round 3, and perhaps 4.  German navy blown away by UK airforces flying out of Caucuses in UK2.  UK counter-attack out of India into Syria (Germany probably took it with amphib in G1 using extra Africa INF to take Egypt).

Germany has at most 13 INF and 1 tank in Africa by end of G2, plus any airforce they want to divert from UK naval supression.
UK has 5 INF avail (South Africa, Egypt, Syria, India), 1 tank, and at least 1 fighter.
US can land 6 INF, 1 tank, and potentially up to 2 fighters and a bomber (not likely but possible) by end of US2.

So by my count, Allies and Germany are even (or nearly so) in piece count in Africa by end of Round 2 (losses to both sides being about even during round 1 battles).

But Germany has no reinforcements coming, while the US can land another 8 units in US3, and UK can start landing forces in either UK2 or 3 depending on builds and Germany air-power counter.

Germany can hold 1 or 2 territories through round 4, if they concentrate their forces.  But concentrated forces defeats the IPC grab in short order.

So Germany can get more IPC’s faster using a “power Africa” move, and they could hold them a round or so longer.  BUT, losing ALL of those extra forces in an isolated arena, with no ability to support it, while the Allies can pour forces in PER ROUND at the same level Germany started out with…  I think those same 7 INF would be better used in Eastern Europe to take and secure Karelia, or in Ukraine to take Caucuses and threaten Russia directly.  Russia is the bigger threat to Germany in early rounds, and every effort should be made to reduce the strength of that threat.

And the Allies don;t really lose anything on their European assault since UK airpower is still used for Russian defense, and Russia still has their INF to pound Germany in the east, and once UK’s navy is re-built in 2 or 3, they can quickly transition from Africa to Europe without pause or loss of movement, if they even divert to support the US at all.  And of course the US can move those African forces to Western Europe in the same move that Eastern US forces leave and also land in Western Europe, perhaps catching Germany off guard with twice as many forces in the invasion as they expected…

So, I guess I answered my own question elsewhere about an ‘extra’ transport in the Med for Germany to support Africa… even with 7 aditional INF avail in round 1, Africa is still quickly lost by Germany.

[madscientist]

Thanks for that- you play without bids? Do you play Russia Restricted? If you don’t play RR, how often do you win as the Axis?

[aaFiendish]

@ncscswitch:

So Germany can get more IPC’s faster using a “power Africa” move, and they could hold them a round or so longer.  BUT, losing ALL of those extra forces in an isolated arena, with no ability to support it, while the Allies can pour forces in PER ROUND at the same level Germany started out with…  I think those same 7 INF would be better used in Eastern Europe to take and secure Karelia, or in Ukraine to take Caucuses and threaten Russia directly.  Russia is the bigger threat to Germany in early rounds, and every effort should be made to reduce the strength of that threat.

Certainly true nc. Placing into eastern europe is called “Power Europe”, and is a very boring game. Power Africa allows for good strategic flexibility and in my view a much more enjoyable game. Most people will not spot you a full bid if you are going to do power europe, I think.

[Guest]

@madscientist:

Thanks for that- you play without bids? Do you play Russia Restricted? If you don’t play RR, how often do you win as the Axis?

Yes, I play both Axis and Allies, and win handilly at either side.

It has been a LONG time since I have found a capable opponent though.

Anymore, I play the Hasbro AI, but only play one nation, and even then I often handicap myself (if playing an ally I give Axis Advantage, if playing the Axis I will modify one of the pieces of an allied nation, such as US tanks defending on 3 instead of 2, or dropping the price of UK tranports.

When playing against myself (all 5 nations), German gets its ass kicked, and Japan runs rampant (until Germany falls).  Knowing in advance every move and counter-move though makes it a dice game, not very fun.

[madscientist]

Have you ever played Soon_U_Die or the other experienced players at this site in an internet game?

[DarthMaximus]

@madscientist:

What do you guys do about a Power Africa bid? You know, if the German player bids 21 (no RR) and places 7 inf on Libya?

I got burned (I was the Allies) in a game last year doing some careless things with a Power Africa bid.  I went to Afr on US 1 and was careless with some trans.

Now I’ll go to Africa stong on rd 2.
Then concentrate on Europe from then on.

From Germany’s point of view, power africa is not used to control Afr, but as a means to get early IPC to put pressure on Russia.

Germany will take Egy rd 1, possibly (syr with trn and inf).
Round 2 they blitz around more, but by rd 3 they are moving everything to the Middle East.

So they can do what some players call a “lurch” in Europe.

G falls back to EE early, then at rd 4 (ish), you move everything you can in Europe East and “lurch” to Ukr.  You vacate WE and dare the Allies to land there.

You can do this because on the next rd you can take Kar or continue to Lurch to Cauc.  Berlin is in no threat of falling and the Allies are now split in WE and Russia.  If they took the bait to WE that is.

Now in rd 6 you take Kar and prepare to punish Moscow.

Germany can have quite a formidible force, esp when the Africa units can link up in rd 4 or so.

You (as Japan) can also leave India for the Germans if you wish or even Kaz.

This way when the Allies are reclaiming Afr, you still get IPCs from Asia.

With a Syr G1 move you can get Germans into the Indian ocean as early as rd 2, but then again the German ships are a prime target, so it may be unlikely for your ships to survive till G2.

[DarthMaximus]

Just to expand on what I do as the Allies.
Also, with a 21+ bid you may get only 5-6 inf in Afr and 2-1 inf in Man (to prevent a R1 attack there), or 2-1 inf in EE.

R1
Attack Baltic, strafe Ukr, defend Yak (7 inf)
move trn to UK sz
Defend Kar heavy

UK 1 will depend on R1 and G1.

If I think I can get away with no AC, I’ll buy 3 trns 2 inf.
I’ll also consider 2 ftrs or 2 boms, but
most likely I’ll go AC and tran save 4.
And position planes to take out Ger fleet, (possibly landing in Cauc if safe)

US 1 - 3 trns, 4 inf
Land ftrs on AC, move to UK sz
Move bom to strike Ger ships in med as well.

R2 - consider buying 3 inf, 3 arm (but mostly I’ll buy all inf)
take Fin, trade Ukr, defend yak or pull to novo.
Defend Kar

UK 2 - go to Afr
sink german ships

US 2 - go to Afr
finish off German ships (if nec)

R3 - trade avail ter, defend Novo and Kar
UK 3 - troops to Fin
US 3 - troops to Fin

R 4 - Defend Kar, consider pulling troops out of Novo (if necessary)
UK 4 - troops to Kar, troops to Fin
US 4 - troops to Kar, troops to Fin

Round 5 on:  Repeat

Slight variations will obviously occur game to game and how battles go, but I think this is a pretty good strat to try and counter Germany’s early power.

But it gets tight for a while since Germany can earn 36+, 39+, 40+ in at least the first three rds.  Which is why Russia must be careful approaching rds 3-4-5.

[OpTorch]

@DarthMaximus:

@madscientist:

What do you guys do about a Power Africa bid? You know, if the German player bids 21 (no RR) and places 7 inf on Libya?

Germany will take Egy rd 1, possibly (syr with trn and inf).
Round 2 they blitz around more, but by rd 3 they are moving everything to the Middle East.

So they can do what some players call a “lurch” in Europe.

The idea to lurch back to Asia and put pressure on Russia is definately a good idea, but even stronger if Ger waits a few rounds, so the allies will have more outplaced units (in Afrika, but needed to clear that continent).

[Guest]

@madscientist:

Have you ever played Soon_U_Die or the other experienced players at this site in an internet game?

I have never played an internet game of A&A.

[madscientist]

@ncscswitch:

@madscientist:

Have you ever played Soon_U_Die or the other experienced players at this site in an internet game?

I have never played an internet game of A&A.

I have never played an internet game at this site either, but if you want to, just go to “Games” and post that you are looking for a game.

[DarthMaximus]

@OpTorch:

@DarthMaximus:

@madscientist:

What do you guys do about a Power Africa bid? You know, if the German player bids 21 (no RR) and places 7 inf on Libya?

Germany will take Egy rd 1, possibly (syr with trn and inf).
Round 2 they blitz around more, but by rd 3 they are moving everything to the Middle East.

So they can do what some players call a “lurch” in Europe.

The idea to lurch back to Asia and put pressure on Russia is definately a good idea, but even stronger if Ger waits a few rounds, so the allies will have more outplaced units (in Afrika, but needed to clear that continent).

Good point.

I will sometimes hide in the Syr area, meaning I’ll head to Asia but if I think the Allies went in light, I’ll back track to Egy, forcing another drop like you suggest, assuming I think I have the time in Europe/Asia.

I’ll also consider a Japan drop off to help the Egy defense (if I think I could seriously hold Afr for a while) or to hold the Ger ter there.  But that is a bit of a luxury, and probably not needed if you can afford to do it.

[Hamar]

@ncscswitch:

@madscientist:

Have you ever played Soon_U_Die or the other experienced players at this site in an internet game?

I have never played an internet game of A&A.Â

until you have played some email games it is pointless to talk strategy.  most of the finer points of strategy and tactics for this game have been worked out through tens of thousands of games in the play-by-email (pbem) clubs.  there are so many variations in gameplay for this game that it is impossible for one player to work them all out by himself.  reading these forums is a good start (i wish i had studied a little more before i started playing!), but they are no substitute for playing lots of games against experienced players.

[Guest]

@Hamar:

until you have played some email games it is pointless to talk strategy.

I consider that to be HIGHLY insulting.

I may not have played any “email” games, But I HAVE played some DAMN fine players IRL over the past nearly 20 YEARS.

In addition I have kicked the snot out of everything that the PC can throw at me, even stacking the deck against myself.

And then of course there is the ultimate opponent:  myself.  Always knowing what I have planned, always planning to counter, to counter, the counter, etc.

And if you doubt my skills so much, read some of the 50 or so posts I have made here, and then get back to me if you feel I am still unqualified to talk “strategy”

There is a world beyond “email” and a lot of folks game quite well without electronic component.