Gun Control

[Janus1]

hold the phone, does K-mart even sell guns? The one by me does not. does it in other places? Thats ridiculous, imo.

People have the right to bear arms. They should have the PRIVILEGE to bear arms. that is, a right that comes with responsibility. rather than simply declaring citizens have the right to bear arms, as though it were a basic right on par with freedom of religion and speech (in the examples i am semi-playing the devils advocate, but its irrelevent), because it is not. its not a right, its a privilege. as long as you own and operate your gun responsibly and safely you may own it. this would include

1. proper storage (i.e. unloaded)
2. proper safety training in the use of the gun for you and anyone else who lives there
3. proper use of gun (i.e. no holding up banks, etc)

if people follow these (and perhaps other) guidelines, i personally see no reason to prohibit them from owning a gun. like darrigaaz said, any child who shows off his dad’s gun to a friend, and winds up killing that friend did not learn proper gun safety, nor did the parents. you dont leave a loaded gun lying around, and even if it was unloaded and the child loaded it, you dont leave a child thats going to do that. you educate your damn kid about the gun, so he doesnt do that.

the owner of the gun should be charged with manslaughter in that case if it occurred.

adolescents of course, should not be allowed to own a gun, and perhaps not even operate one (i could go either way on this one). you should be an adult, with the proper education on the matter, and no criminal record, or history of mental illness.

back to kmart….
kmart should not be allowed to sell guns.
aside from just seeming so basically wrong, it sends the wrong message, it makes them seem as if any other item. which they are not. they are instruments of death. this is not an item to be taken so lightly as to sell it in kmart. it should be sold in gun-specific stores, by properly liscensed dealers, to properly liscensed consumers, and every gun in the place should be in police records, with barrel groove prints (whatever you call those) and perhaps even tracers (again, i could go either way on this)

the problem is not that people have guns, its that they have the wrong attitude. too many people with guns dont respect what it is, and should not own a gun, and too many people who dont own guns also do not respect what it is, and demonize it to the point of ludicracy.

[Guerrilla Guy]

The Right to bear Arms was established so that if the USA was invaded, it would have a overly capable Guerrilla defense force…

[Janus1]

quite frankly, i dont care. it should not be a RIGHT, but instead a PRIVILEGE.

[DeviantScripter]

@F_alk:

@Darrigaaz:

…However, this will be like the prohibition: people WILL find a way. As an American, i know from experience that we are a hard bunch to lick (i hate that expression). They’re trying to control drugs, arent they? not going to well, if i say so myself.

I think this argument is flawed.
Drugs harm yourself, weapons harm others. Still you propose to keep weapons free, and pull the “failed” “drug control” as a reason for that. Wouldn’t that imply that you support free drugs for everyone then as well?
For me, it does, even though you probably don’t want that.

You idiot. Drugs aren’t protected by the constitution, the right to bear arms is. :roll:

[Guest]

@Deviant:Scripter:

You idiot. Drugs aren’t protected by the constitution, the right to bear arms is. :roll:

You idiot. Not by mine. … anyone out there to dare calling me stereotyping when i get these great examples all the time?

@Darrigaaz:

@F_alk:

if drug control doesn’t work, why waste ressources on that???
that would follow that argument, and is the reason why i called it flawed.

Did i say that? did i even imply that? NO

Read again …. i just mentioned the next step that your argument leads to. I never said you implied that or anything. And you yourself said that drug control didn’t work at all. (“Its not working at all. Its like killing a mosquito only to have ten thousand others swarm you.”)
On the other hand, you are so frightened that gun control would take away your prescious tool for killing. Why? If the one doesn’t work, why should the other? I don’t see why you are afraid of (and against) one, by the basis of a not-working other one. That makes no sense.

“The Right To Bear Arms”

Then you don’t mind people owning tanks, jet fighters etc. ?

You seem Very sure that firearms are evil tools of satanic death delivering. :)

Leave out the evil and satanic and then you have it. I have never heard that guns have another purpose than delivering death. Maybe scaring, but only because of the threatening the first thing.

Another Killing tool? the car.

Whereas cars have a different purpose. They are actually designed for bringing you from one place to another. Guns are designed for killing (except for some sporting rifles).
And: to use a car you have to do a license.

Another point to keep in mind: with over 200 million firearms in the country, who do you think are going to be the only ones who dont hand them in when uncle sam comes calling?

Surely none of his (CC’s) fellow citizens. Surely none of mine. And it is less than 200 million in the country. That would be more than 2 rifles per person (of any age).
sigh
it is not much work to change “the” to “my”.

Check this Statistic: twice as many inner city children are killed by knives than firearms. What should we outlaw butter knives?

stupid comparison (to the “butter knife”), second, read what CC had posted earlier on the difference of wounds caused by knifes and guns.

[Guerrilla Guy]

Jet Fighters, WHY NOT! :lol: My brother and I were talking about this one time, if our goverment in the form it is didn’t exsist… the problem is that the Goverment (purticularly the White House) controls all foriegn wars… not everyone wants them… and that is how the prez gets booted… we originally were designed as a country to not get involved in foreign conflict but to remain nuetral, but open to any Foreign Trade… then if that was the “mindset”, we had created then I see no reason why not to! As we progressed into foreign wars and Imperialism, everyone depended on the Military at the time… I see why not you could depend on yourself and 30 Million able-bodied men(and women) to go get rid of a threat… That does not mean we wouldn’t have Jet Fighters Technology isn’t depended on Goverments…

GG

[Darrigaaz]

@Deviant:Scripter:

@F_alk:

@Darrigaaz:

…However, this will be like the prohibition: people WILL find a way. As an American, i know from experience that we are a hard bunch to lick (i hate that expression). They’re trying to control drugs, arent they? not going to well, if i say so myself.

I think this argument is flawed.
Drugs harm yourself, weapons harm others. Still you propose to keep weapons free, and pull the “failed” “drug control” as a reason for that. Wouldn’t that imply that you support free drugs for everyone then as well?
For me, it does, even though you probably don’t want that.

You idiot. Drugs aren’t protected by the constitution, the right to bear arms is. :roll:

DS, while i agree with you, please keep it civilized, this is a very fun topic to discuss and i do not want it to deteriorate into just blasting eachothers opinions.

Janus, this is my stance. It (in modern day no longer coloial sociiety) is a right to have a chance of owning a gun. but if you screw it up, “no gun for you”!

Kmart. When i say Kmart sells guns i mean they have this cabinet over their pocket knife display containing paintballstuff, bb guns, and then three or four rifles and shotguns. I agree, if anything, Kmart should sell maps containing locations of firearms specialty stores; not the arms themselves.

When you say tracers do you mean like GPS locators built into your guns? if you do, i would dissgree with that. the barrel groove print things is a good idea, and may people in government are working toawrds this.

[Darrigaaz]

@F_alk:

And you yourself said that drug control didn’t work at all. (“Its not working at all. Its like killing a mosquito only to have ten thousand others swarm you.”)
On the other hand, you are so frightened that gun control would take away your prescious tool for killing. Why? If the one doesn’t work, why should the other?

because im not some criminal drug dealer who evades the law. if a law like this was ever passed, i’d be very pissed at the democrats but i would kindly oblige; then i would work to get it repealed.

That makes no sense.

makes plenty of sense.

Then you don’t mind people owning tanks, jet fighters etc. ?

People do own tanks! have you seen how big some of those SUV’s are? :lol: :lol: Owning a Jet fighter is like owning an AK-47; people do it sometimes, but the government keeps a close eye on them. There are alot of private collectors out there, which brings me to you next point.

I have never heard that guns have another purpose than delivering death.

Collectors; guns are usually MORE valuable if nver fired. LouisXVI had a pistol that had about 3/4 of a pound of jewels on it, making it more of a trophy that “A SATANIC DEATH DELIVERING BEAST FROM HELL”. Many people go to rifle ranges as a source of fun. Yes, fun, or unmandated extracuricular activities.

Whereas cars have a different purpose. They are actually designed for bringing you from one place to another…. EVEN WORSE THAT WE STILL HAVE THESE MECHANIZED DEATH BOXES ON THE ROAD! WHY STILL USE THESE DESTRUCTIVE AND UNCONTROLLABLE FORCES IF THEY KILL SCORES OF INNOCENT PEOPLE A DAY!

And: to use a car you have to do a license.

to use a gun, you do have to have a license. :P

Another point to keep in mind: with over 200 million firearms in the country, who do you think are going to be the only ones who dont hand them in when uncle sam comes calling?

Surely none of his (CC’s) fellow citizens. Surely none of mine. And it is less than 200 million in the country. That would be more than 2 rifles per person (of any age).

dont be so sure, unless you have scoured everyone of your neighbors houses, you cannot know for sure.
sigh
and yes, OVER 200 million. Most hunters own more than one rifle depending on the game and terrain they’re hunting in. Most police stations have mnay more firearms than the officers assigned there. most collectors have insane amounts of firearms. that figure is most definately correct.

Check this Statistic: twice as many inner city children are killed by knives than firearms. What should we outlaw butter knives?

stupid comparison (to the “butter knife”), second, read what CC had posted earlier on the difference of wounds caused by knifes and guns.
Please, you anti gun people seem to enjoy using terms like “stupid” and “whacked”. They really do nothing than to send the impression that your not thinking rationally. i will check the above post of CC’s, but i cant find it :roll:

[Guerrilla Guy]

it’s stupid that we have to put liscence on guns nowadays!

[Darrigaaz]

@Guerrilla:

it’s stupid that we have to put liscence on guns nowadays!

hey, it keeps the anti gun nuts happy, and it doesnt bother me all that much, so i dont care.

[Guerrilla Guy]

@Darrigaaz:

@Guerrilla:

it’s stupid that we have to put liscence on guns nowadays!

hey, it keeps the anti gun nuts happy, and it doesnt bother me all that much, so i dont care.

the point is the “Nowadays”!

[cystic crypt]

@Guerrilla:

one point CC… the right to keep and bear killing machines? have you ever thought that the car you drive can kill someone? a gun is no different it’s just perticularly meant to kill or disable….

do i really have to insult your intelligence by explaining the difference between a car and a gun? and i have seen a car used as a weapon (on a patient), however its effectiveness relative to a weapon and . . .
really, this is just too inane for words.

[cystic crypt]

@Darrigaaz:

Just because the drug war isn’t working perfectly, doesn’t mean that it isn’t working.

Its not working at all. Its like killing a mosquito only to have ten thousand others swarm you.

i’d suggest that you would have a different result without any effort directed at drug-control.

All that the proliferation of guns does is enhance fear and paranoia.

Without this sounding like a personal attack, these really sound like symptoms your exhibiting. You seem Very sure that firearms are evil tools of satanic death delivering. :)

well, they’re pretty close. i think i’d be a lot more paranoid in a society as gun-happy as the US.

Since when is more slaughtered people and more people in jails preferable to a society with fewer slaughtering devices? Your priorities in this regard are completely whacked.

Its called responsibility. Parents are responsible for feeding, clothing, and sheltering their children. If they fail at this they are charged for criminal neglect or whatever (cant think of the actual crimes name)
P.S. saying my opinions are ‘whacked’ seems on par with saying to me ‘your an idiot’, it has no impact at all on this conversation other than being rude.

yeah, i think i’ll stand by my original stance on this one. A society where the right to have guns takes precedance over the lives of its citizens is a society with whacked priorities. A society with fewer guns has fewer gun deaths. I mean really - think about it. You basically said: so? If children are killed handling firearms, then their parents should go to prison. This society is eminantly more preferable to one where we can have a/many designated killing machine/s in most/every household? People have momentary lapses in judgement daily. Doctors, judges, politicians, parents - everyone. Someone has one of these, their child gets killed, and we say “oh well - better lock up the bad daddy” instead of just getting rid of the stupid things.

he also had access to a gun that killed his (adolescent) friend. The years of life lost in this regard are astounding. The “gee, that’s too bad, if only he had learned gun control” attitude is ridiculous when it would be much easier to restrict firearms from these adolescents.

Well i have access to my parents car and liquor cabinet. doesnt mean im driving down the road drunk and hollering “Hoo-Rah!” I have access to two sticks, that doesnt mean i go around lighting my neighbors houses on fire.

so?? Many kids are stupid. I was until i was 24 or so. It’s far too easy for the state to prevent a simple accident in this regard. But no - trampling the rights of people to own guns is soo much more onerous than people losing their lives to these guns.

i don’t really have a problem with this, but i am all about keeping all killing machines outside of the city.

Another point to keep in mind: with over 200 million firearms in the country, who do you think are going to be the only ones who dont hand them in when uncle sam comes calling?

this goes to my Deliverance statement . . . .

As the saying goes, when you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns.

lmao.
oooo right out of the NRA textbook. so clever and so empty. Saying “when you outlaw gun, fewer people will be killed by them and the outlaws owning guns will eventually be nailled by the appropriate authorities when our society pays more heed to preventative and protective strategies” is not nearly as clever.

Check this Statistic: twice as many inner city children are killed by knives than firearms. What should we outlaw butter knives?

lmao
you ask me not to insult you, and then you come up with something like this???
Please give me something to take seriously. In the meantime, examine a butter knife. Try to kill someone across the street with it without moving. Or someone in the next office.

[Janus1]

CC, thats where you are wrong. ive killed 30 people with a butter knife, from across the street.

they call me the butter-knife bandit

:roll:

[cystic crypt]

@Janus1:

CC, thats where you are wrong. ive killed 30 people with a butter knife, from across the street.

they call me the butter-knife bandit

:roll:

have you thought about entering the circus? it’s not just about juggling babies anymore.

[Darrigaaz]

All your “Save the children from the evil guns!” nonsense and you condone juggling babies? shame on you!

@cystic:

i’d suggest that you would have a different result without any effort directed at drug-control.

I predict that pehaps drug use in the country would increase about 3% of its current total TOPS.

well, they’re pretty close. i think i’d be a lot more paranoid in a society as gun-happy as the US.

yeah, i think i’ll stand by my original stance on this one. A society where the right to have guns takes precedance over the lives of its citizens is a society with whacked priorities. A society with fewer guns has fewer gun deaths.

lol seeing as your in a medical field, i figure you would realize that people dont live forever, so there would not be any less deaths. Maybe a few (FEW) less early deaths, but at what cost? As i said, cars kill people, so to save more people lets revert back to using horses. wait sometimes people get crushed by horses, so lets only walk. You ban weapons and you screw people out of something useful to them. I mean really - think about it.

You basically said: so? If children are killed handling firearms, then their parents should go to prison. This society is eminantly more preferable to one where we can have a/many designated killing machine/s in most/every household? People have momentary lapses in judgement daily. Doctors, judges, politicians, parents - everyone. Someone has one of these, their child gets killed, and we say “oh well - better lock up the bad daddy” instead of just getting rid of the stupid things.

Lets suppose some guy gets very drunk, and decides to get into a car and causes an accident that kills three kids on their way to soccer practice. What do we do? we arrest him. Do we ban the beer he drank? no. Do we recall all cars? no.

But no - trampling the rights of people to own guns is soo much more onerous than people losing their lives to these guns.

Yes it is, see above. Despite what your obvious beliefs are, you cant make the world danger-proof. And if you try, everyone would lose everything.

this goes to my Deliverance statement . . . .

How so? Because i speak the undeniable facts i’m some kind of toothless hick? Do you really expect all the bad guys that you seem so intent on taking these guns away from are going to stroll into the police office and say, “I’m here to hand over my Glock, sir.” What kind of fantasy world do you live in?

Saying “when you outlaw gun, fewer people will be killed by them and the outlaws owning guns will eventually be nailled by the appropriate authorities when our society pays more heed to preventative and protective strategies” is not nearly as clever.

Once again, back to the smuggling/prohibition arguement.

lmao
you ask me not to insult you, and then you come up with something like this???
Please give me something to take seriously. In the meantime, examine a butter knife. Try to kill someone across the street with it without moving. Or someone in the next office.

I could easily take this butter knife and put it On an arrow and shoot it across the street. True, i would need some practice to adjust my aim, but its possible.

And why do you think someone needs to stand still? I could easily sneek into my friends house with a butter knife and get close enough so that someone could kill him. Then my sean would probably kick my ass for breaking into his house, but i could easily prove you wrong.

Of course, i’m a bit too lazy to do so right now and seans off at college.

[Guest]

@Darrigaaz:

There are alot of private collectors out there, which brings me to you next point.

I have never heard that guns have another purpose than delivering death.

Collectors; guns are usually MORE valuable if nver fired. LouisXVI had a pistol that had about 3/4 of a pound of jewels on it, making it more of a trophy that “A SATANIC DEATH DELIVERING BEAST FROM HELL”. Many people go to rifle ranges as a source of fun. Yes, fun, or unmandated extracuricular activities.

Don’t shout.
Don’t imply that a phrase coined by you is taken any seriously by me.
For a collector, it is very simple to make the weapon unusable. (Not permanently, just by removing one or more inner parts, like the bolt (correct term?)).

EVEN WORSE THAT WE STILL HAVE THESE MECHANIZED DEATH BOXES ON THE ROAD! WHY STILL USE THESE DESTRUCTIVE AND UNCONTROLLABLE FORCES IF THEY KILL SCORES OF INNOCENT PEOPLE A DAY!

sigh i don’t have to comment that any further.

To a slightly different topic….

And: to use a car you have to do a license.

to use a gun, you do have to have a license.

And also a proven need.

Surely none of his (CC’s) fellow citizens. Surely none of mine. And it is less than 200 million in the country. That would be more than 2 rifles per person (of any age).

dont be so sure, unless you have scoured everyone of your neighbors houses, you cannot know for sure.
sigh
and yes, OVER 200 million. Most hunters own more than one rifle depending on the game and terrain they’re hunting in. Most police stations have mnay more firearms than the officers assigned there. most collectors have insane amounts of firearms. that figure is most definately correct.

It is not. It’s about 20 million, by police estimates. Weapons used with crimes are most likel to be illegal (96%).

You didn’t read my post did you?

Please, you anti gun people seem to enjoy using terms like “stupid” and “whacked”. They really do nothing than to send the impression that your not thinking rationally.

That is not my fault. Can you tell me how to counter your irrational arguments rationally? I don’t see that there is any way for that.

@Darrigaaz:

yeah, i think i’ll stand by my original stance on this one. A society where the right to have guns takes precedance over the lives of its citizens is a society with whacked priorities. A society with fewer guns has fewer gun deaths.

lol seeing as your in a medical field, i figure you would realize that people dont live forever, so there would not be any less deaths. Maybe a few (FEW) less early deaths, but at what cost? … I mean really - think about it.

I mean, really, read his post again: “gun deaths”, not “deaths”. The costs … how much is a human live worth? You seem to know the answer, and it doesn’t seem to be that much.
I agree totally with CC here, and whoever takes his own “rights” as more important than other peoples lives… i cannot respect, as they show a blatant selfish disrespect for the one most important and universal human right.

Lets suppose some guy gets very drunk, and decides to get into a car and causes an accident that kills three kids on their way to soccer practice. What do we do? we arrest him. Do we ban the beer he drank? no. Do we recall all cars? no.

As you probably don’t see the flaw:
Drunk driving is illegal.
Remember what you said yourself why you don’t “allow” thinking further your “drugs and weapons” thread: “if a law like this was ever passed, i’d be very pissed at the democrats but i would kindly oblige; then i would work to get it repealed.”
(…which is a good laugh by itself btw)

[cystic crypt]

@Darrigaaz:

All your “Save the children from the evil guns!” nonsense and you condone juggling babies? shame on you!

Whew!. Glad to see that you have a sense of humor after all.

@cystic:

well, they’re pretty close. i think i’d be a lot more paranoid in a society as gun-happy as the US.

yeah, i think i’ll stand by my original stance on this one. A society where the right to have guns takes precedance over the lives of its citizens is a society with whacked priorities. A society with fewer guns has fewer gun deaths.

lol seeing as your in a medical field, i figure you would realize that people dont live forever, so there would not be any less deaths. Maybe a few (FEW) less early deaths, but at what cost? As i said, cars kill people, so to save more people lets revert back to using horses. wait sometimes people get crushed by horses, so lets only walk. You ban weapons and you screw people out of something useful to them. I mean really - think about it.

A common unit of measurement in medicine is “years of life lost”. This is actually considered an important measurement and a useful endpoint when examining both prospective and retrospective trials. You can put any kind of spin on it that you like, but every gun death is absolutely preventable (as opposed to many medical illnesses where death is the endpoint). Furthermore every typical gun death represents many more years of life lost than a simple M.I. As far as your endless attempts to compare guns (units intended to kill) with automobiles (units intended to transport people), i really hope that this is another sign of your sense of humor (are you British by background?).

You basically said: so? If children are killed handling firearms, then their parents should go to prison. This society is eminantly more preferable to one where we can have a/many designated killing machine/s in most/every household? People have momentary lapses in judgement daily. Doctors, judges, politicians, parents - everyone. Someone has one of these, their child gets killed, and we say “oh well - better lock up the bad daddy” instead of just getting rid of the stupid things.

Lets suppose some guy gets very drunk, and decides to get into a car and causes an accident that kills three kids on their way to soccer practice. What do we do? we arrest him. Do we ban the beer he drank? no. Do we recall all cars? no.

hahaha, i get it. You’re being funny again!!

But no - trampling the rights of people to own guns is soo much more onerous than people losing their lives to these guns.

Yes it is, see above. Despite what your obvious beliefs are, you cant make the world danger-proof. And if you try, everyone would lose everything.

this goes to my Deliverance statement . . . .

How so? Because i speak the undeniable facts i’m some kind of toothless hick? Do you really expect all the bad guys that you seem so intent on taking these guns away from are going to stroll into the police office and say, “I’m here to hand over my Glock, sir.” What kind of fantasy world do you live in?

right. evidently not one where rationality and citizens lives takes precedence over the right to a little death-spitter.

Saying “when you outlaw gun, fewer people will be killed by them and the outlaws owning guns will eventually be nailled by the appropriate authorities when our society pays more heed to preventative and protective strategies” is not nearly as clever.

Once again, back to the smuggling/prohibition arguement.

unrelated. with prohibition - every citizen with the exception of teetollars wanted to drink and found ways of doing it. The odd drink was not difficult to obtain, and lasted maybe one evening. I look at other societies (i.e. the non-US/non-terrorist ones) where the use/ownership of firearms is significantly more restricted, and i don’t see your average citizen trying to get themselves a hot-weapon.

lmao
you ask me not to insult you, and then you come up with something like this???
Please give me something to take seriously. In the meantime, examine a butter knife. Try to kill someone across the street with it without moving. Or someone in the next office.

I could easily take this butter knife and put it On an arrow and shoot it across the street. True, i would need some practice to adjust my aim, but its possible.

And why do you think someone needs to stand still? I could easily sneek into my friends house with a butter knife and get close enough so that someone could kill him. Then my sean would probably kick my a** for breaking into his house, but i could easily prove you wrong.

Of course, i’m a bit too lazy to do so right now and seans off at college.

ok, you got me. very funny.

[Janus1]

how much is a human live worth?

$37,246.89

You can convert the currency yourself.

:roll:

[Guerrilla Guy]

@cystic:

@Guerrilla:

one point CC… the right to keep and bear killing machines? have you ever thought that the car you drive can kill someone? a gun is no different it’s just perticularly meant to kill or disable….

do i really have to insult your intelligence by explaining the difference between a car and a gun? and i have seen a car used as a weapon (on a patient), however its effectiveness relative to a weapon and . . .
really, this is just too inane for words.

Insult my intelligence? Heck, I think were all stupid! :lol:

The point is not wether it kills or not, the point is wether it should be outlawed… If someone is killed by a drunk driver do we outlaw cars… if someone is shot while a burglar is robbing a house do we outlaw the guns and prevent a person to defend themself?

GG

GG