How to stop the double team on Russia

[elevenjerk]

Splitting armies is typically a no-no

This is 100% true except that with a well executed G1 the North Armies have no choice but to retreat to Archangel/Vologda/Russia.  Depending on how much German army is left in Eastern poland and Baltic States, it is really hard to take back Eastern Poland and Baltic on R1 unless you got some good dice on G1.    If the Russians counter in those two territories, and win, than it is easy to wipe them out on G2.  If the russian forces move to Belarus and I have a chance to take them out I will every time even if it means losing some tanks and an airplane or two.

Someone mentioned a tactic of attacking as Russia to take out some of the forces in those two fronts and then retreating to Belarus.  That could be a beneficial move as there would be no ability to counter attack for Germany.  Of course you are banking on another factor of luck when it comes to the dice:)

BJCard -

Wasn’t trying to be a smart ass, just saying that with a dedicated G1 I don’t believe there is anything you can do.  I like the ideas of Russia giving up the capital if they have a chance to get south and help there.  I haven’t seen the opportunity for that in our games but will pay more attention next time. Â

[Stalingradski]

@variance:

Stalingradski, what do you think of UK taking both Persia and Iraq on UK1 and building an IC in IRAQ UK2?

Hey Vance  :-D

I think if you can pull it off, it’s worth it - at the very least Iraq. I’ve been placing my bid in Transjordan lately to make it easier. An Iraqi IC on U2 is fantastic - almost no delay getting troops to help Egypt and eventually to plug Caucasus/NW Persia.

I secretly would love to figure out how to hold off on activating Persia for 5 turns, until a US transport can get there…  :-)  Mostly a pipe dream, but imagine the US economy projected right to the middle of the board? Man.

We should play again some time!

[Stalingradski]

@elevenjerk:

Splitting armies is typically a no-no

This is 100% true except that with a well executed G1 the North Armies have no choice but to retreat to Archangel/Vologda/Russia. � Depending on how much German army is left in Eastern poland and Baltic States, it is really hard to take back Eastern Poland and Baltic on R1 unless you got some good dice on G1. �  � If the Russians counter in those two territories, and win, than it is easy to wipe them out on G2. � If the russian forces move to Belarus and I have a chance to take them out I will every time even if it means losing some tanks and an airplane or two.

Someone mentioned a tactic of attacking as Russia to take out some of the forces in those two fronts and then retreating to Belarus. � That could be a beneficial move as there would be no ability to counter attack for Germany. � Of course you are banking on another factor of luck when it comes to the dice:)

BJCard -

Wasn’t trying to be a smart ass, just saying that with a dedicated G1 I don’t believe there is anything you can do. � I like the ideas of Russia giving up the capital if they have a chance to get south and help there. � I haven’t seen the opportunity for that in our games but will pay more attention next time. �

Very true elvenjerk - at the beginning of things you have no choice. In general what I’m talking about is the mistake some newer players make of trying to maintain a northern and southern Russian army… it’s a cool concept, but it’s easy to isolate and kill one of them… and then Russia is most certainly doomed.

[Eqqman]

If the question is really what can RUSSIA do, then the flip answer really is nothing.  The very short summary of what has already been said before is that you pretty much just have to retreat in a manner that doesn’t allow too many of your men to get wiped out too soon.

The real question is what can the Allies do by turn 6 that will cause the German player to slow down the amount of reinforcements they send to their Russian stack so that the Russians can keep pace with it.  I agree with Stalingradski that the Mid East holds more promise than going into France.  It’s always extremely tempting to try and shuck somebody up from Gibraltar into Normandy or Norway, but these areas are just too close to the Axis production areas to stage a safe, early invasion.  Every territory in Western Europe (basically) has an IC of some kind in it, so no matter how empty it was when you landed, it can instantly fill up with troops exactly when needed.  I’ve had a lot of opponents trying out the Don't capture Normandy strategy, which gives me a chuckle, since Normandy is almost never relevant.  The Axis are just denying themselves income and the ability to instantly drop a blocker DD into the English Channel to stop a sudden play up to the W. Germany - Norway belt.

If you are focusing your efforts in the Mid East, then Italy is getting contained, you are sure to be holding Cairo so that the game doesn’t end right away with the loss of Moscow, and you have a place to be building up troops on the mainland that Germany has no easy access to.  You can then make a stand in the Caucasus as need be (as already said) or even help India if you have to.

Something I’m still questioning is where to go exactly if you decide you want to pull out of Moscow.  The map layout doesn’t favor getting from Moscow to Caucasus ahead of a German stack.  I don’t think Russia has any way to get to the Mid East without being attacked and wiped out long before they can arrive.  In that case I’m wondering if it better to head right for China or India.

[elevenjerk]

I’m talking about is the mistake some newer players make of trying to maintain a northern and southern Russian army… it’s a cool concept, but it’s easy to isolate and kill one of them… and then Russia is most certainly doomed.

Agreed.  Whenever possible you have to combine troops and slow the main territories with bryansk being the most important IMO.

The map layout doesn’t favor getting from Moscow to Caucasus ahead of a German stack.  I don’t think Russia has any way to get to the Mid East without being attacked and wiped out long before they can arrive.

Thats what I thought when I first read that but they can get away if germany is in bryansk.  Move to Samara, Germany can only hit them with tanks and airplanes if Italy can opens.  No can opener means they can’t get to you.  Next turn move to Kazakhstan where germany still can’t reach you cause they will be in Tambov or Rostov.  Next move they can join up with UK/US forces in Caucausus.  Could work really well.  Would have to see it played out.

[variance]

Stalingradski, I’d love to lose to you again sometime.  :-)  A British transport next to South Africa is a nice bid for the Iraq thing and it allows you to use the the one next to Egypt to get the Malta units to Egypt.

Eggman, in a G1 scenario the Russians may pull out to Samara R5 just as the Siberians get to Novosibersk.  They can merge in Kazakhstan R6, then meet up with the British in Caucasus.  The nice part about that is the Germans have 2 important territories to defend (Rostov and Volgograd) and 1 to attack (Caucasus), but the UK/Russian force has only 1 to defend and 2 to attack.

[BJCard]

@variance:

Stalingradski, I’d love to lose to you again sometime.  :-)  A British transport next to South Africa is a nice bid for the Iraq thing and it allows you to use the the one next to Egypt to get the Malta units to Egypt.

Eggman, in a G1 scenario the Russians may pull out to Samara R5 just as the Siberians get to Novosibersk.  They can merge in Kazakhstan R6, then meet up with the British in Caucasus.  The nice part about that is the Germans have 2 important territories to defend (Rostov and Volgograd) and 1 to attack (Caucasus), but the UK/Russian force has only 1 to defend and 2 to attack.

You empty Malta?  Where does the British air land after Taranto?  On the carrier?  That is certain death.  Or do you not Taranto?

[Eqqman]

@elevenjerk:

Thats what I thought when I first read that but they can get away if germany is in bryansk.  Move to Samara, Germany can only hit them with tanks and airplanes if Italy can opens.  No can opener means they can’t get to you.  Next turn move to Kazakhstan where germany still can’t reach you cause they will be in Tambov or Rostov.  Next move they can join up with UK/US forces in Caucausus.  Could work really well.  Would have to see it played out.

@variance:

Eggman, in a G1 scenario the Russians may pull out to Samara R5 just as the Siberians get to Novosibersk.  They can merge in Kazakhstan R6, then meet up with the British in Caucasus.  The nice part about that is the Germans have 2 important territories to defend (Rostov and Volgograd) and 1 to attack (Caucasus), but the UK/Russian force has only 1 to defend and 2 to attack.

The problem I’ve been seeing with this, is that once Russia pulls out of Moscow, then Germany can send its mobile units down on the direct route to Caucasus and head them off at the pass, as it were, with its chain of Mech Infantry reinforcements redirecting themselves to head south as well.  Send in 1 Infantry to capture Moscow and leave the rest of your 1-move guys adjacent to Moscow in case Russia moves back in.  If they do, some or all of your 2-move units might still be in range to get back.  If the Allies didn’t stack the Middle East then you don’t need to send down more in that direction than you can bring up every turn.

Depends a lot though on the exact composition of forces on each side.

[elevenjerk]

Yea, the other problem is that it allows germany to build as many as 20 tanks to meet in Caucasus along with the already pressumably destructive force they had set to go into Russia.  In the end it boils down to my first response, slow them down as much as possible and say your prayers in Russian:)

[BJCard]

Ok, so you know the Axis are going to squeeze Russia.  The UK could do a Mid East strat as many have discussed.

What about the US?  Heavy Pacific?

[pmelmike]

I agree that it makes sense for the Russian player to abandon Moscow if holding it is impossible.  However, if this happens and Italy takes Egypt that gives the Axis their 8 victory cities.  In my experience, Italy can normally take Egypt either round 2 or 3 and Leningrad/Stalingrad fall before Moscow.  Are we assuming that since Japan went hard after the Soviets that India can threaten/retake Egypt?

[variance]

@BJCard:

@variance:

Stalingradski, I’d love to lose to you again sometime.  :-)  A British transport next to South Africa is a nice bid for the Iraq thing and it allows you to use the the one next to Egypt to get the Malta units to Egypt.

Eggman, in a G1 scenario the Russians may pull out to Samara R5 just as the Siberians get to Novosibersk.  They can merge in Kazakhstan R6, then meet up with the British in Caucasus.  The nice part about that is the Germans have 2 important territories to defend (Rostov and Volgograd) and 1 to attack (Caucasus), but the UK/Russian force has only 1 to defend and 2 to attack.

You empty Malta?  Where does the British air land after Taranto?  On the carrier?  That is certain death.  Or do you not Taranto?

No Taranto.

[elevenjerk]

I found it very tough.  UK only has so much to spend.  US has to have 12 tt’s available in order to get 6 units a turn to Cairo and still threaten Europe.  That is very expensive and requires very little spending in the Pacific.  If you US can’t give Japan problems then it is very tough to win if the Axis don’t make any major mistakes.  Once the Economic battle falls in the favor of the axis it is over.  The distance it takes for the allies (Mostly US since they are the big money) is too much to overcome when the axis make more than you.  Germany at 70+ (when russia falls) 80+ (with Volgograd as well), Italy around 12-15, Japan around 60 to 70 depending on DEI.  That is hard for US to fight on both sides with 70-80 IPCs.

[elevenjerk]

Italy can normally take Egypt either round 2 or 3

Without German help I haven’t seen them be able to hold it for more than a turn.  I always buy infantry and a fighter UK1 (sea lion) and after that I make sure cairo isn’t taken or kept by the italian.  Even getting diced on my Toranto I was able to have it back by turn 4

[pmelmike]

@elevenjerk:

Italy can normally take Egypt either round 2 or 3

Without German help I haven’t seen them be able to hold it for more than a turn.  I always buy infantry and a fighter UK1 (sea lion) and after that I make sure cairo isn’t taken or kept by the italian.  Even getting diced on my Toranto I was able to have it back by turn 4

As the UK, Egypt has always fustrated me. Could you elaborate as to how you accomplish that?

What I’ve seen in the past is Germany helping Italy out by taking out any remaining UK/French navy in the Med on turn 2 with their Air Force.  That allows Italy to hit Egypt with their units in North Africa and two full transports, usually on turn 3.  After that happens it’s been very difficult for the UK to retake it without US help.  Plus if Japan holds off on attacking the western Allies until turn 3/4, that will keep the US from getting to the Med until at least turn 5 or so.  By then, Italy normally as a minor IC there and a decent naval force.

[Stalingradski]

So much to talk about!

Eggman - I think Samara is the way to go, because it allows Kazahkstan or Volgograd if needed. Variance is dead on about the stack from the Far East getting there just at the same time… 12 infantry and a couple AA guns is absolutely a shot in the arm.

Elvenjerk - I’ve done the Samara/Kazahk/Caucasus route several times, and had it done against me as well… but not against players who are almost all mechanized + air. It’s easy to stay a step ahead if Germany has a preponderance of infantry/artillery… so the point that Germany may be able to get there first (Eggman) is well taken.

The only counter to that I can think of is the way Russia purchases in the first place. If you start the game purchasing knowing that you’ll eventually be moving out of Moscow, and maybe needing to get offensive, make sure to mix in artillery and mech infantry. So the 7 infantry/3 artillery/mech infantry from R1 could continue in a similar manner until you’re forced to leave. Then, if Germany’s mechanized units do outrace you to the spot, they’ll have to be very careful or you may have just enough to punch them in the face.

A thought - The Allies and Russia could partly counter a G1 Barbarossa by targeting Italian ground units specifically… or by punishing the Med and making Italy buy expensive air and navy rather than much on land. The reason? To slow down the flow of troops to can open for Germany, or eliminate them completely (your opponent may not notice why you’re doing it). One of the ways Germany is able to take and hold ground so close to the Russian Bear is by Italy clearing the path, meaning a few extra defensive Italian units, plus Germany can land air units. This is typically too much for Russia to be able to attack. However! If G5, G6, G7 come along (and Russia has been buying some teeth), and Italy has had the ability to can open reduced, Germany may not be able to park itself in quantity in a position to deny the Russian retreat to the Caucasus.

Hmmm… I’ll have to try this out  :evil:

[Stalingradski]

@VZSTAL:

@elevenjerk:

Italy can normally take Egypt either round 2 or 3

Without German help I haven’t seen them be able to hold it for more than a turn.�  I always buy infantry and a fighter UK1 (sea lion) and after that I make sure cairo isn’t taken or kept by the italian.�  Even getting diced on my Toranto I was able to have it back by turn 4

As the UK, Egypt has always fustrated me. Could you elaborate as to how you accomplish that?

What I’ve seen in the past is Germany helping Italy out by taking out any remaining UK/French navy in the Med on turn 2 with their Air Force.  That allows Italy to hit Egypt with their units in North Africa and two full transports, usually on turn 3.  After that happens it’s been very difficult for the UK to retake it without US help.  Plus if Japan holds off on attacking the western Allies until turn 3/4, that will keep the US from getting to the Med until at least turn 5 or so.  By then, Italy normally as a minor IC there and a decent naval force.

In general, make sure to take out the Italians to the south of you, but do it with the mech and armor. They can make it back U2, just in time. Also, start a steady flow of 3 mech infantry a round from S Africa starting U2… or, buy an infantry/artillery/transport mix in S Africa.

Get an IC as fast as you can (U3 at the latest) in either Persia or Iraq. They can start aiding Cairo.

Next, as soon as Germany has made their intention clear of no Sealion, start flying as many fighters as you can possibly can afford to send to F W Africa - they’re in Egypt by U3.

Never build an Egyptian IC unless you’re very, very confident Italy is no longer interested in it. Better to be safe than hand them a nice, shiny new factory on a VC.

[variance]

Does it help if the Japanese march everything straight across China?  They could be at Tsinghai/Kansu J4 with air units nearby to kill off the Siberians on J5.

[Stalingradski]

@variance:

Does it help if the Japanese march everything straight across China?  They could be at Tsinghai/Kansu J4 with air units nearby to kill off the Siberians on J5.

Great point. If Japan is completely focused on hitting Russia through the backside of China, it would do a lot of damage. As an Allied Pacific player, in response… force your way into the Carolines with carriers, and support ships, and Anzacian air/destroyer backup to tug Japanese air power back into the Pacific.

[elevenjerk]

Could you elaborate as to how you accomplish that?

Stalingradski touched on it a bit.  I always buy 6 inf and 1 fighter UK1 to help prevent Sea Lion.  After that I like 2 mech 1 tank in S Africa.  I always take the CV from India to bombard the Italians in ethiopia on UK1. Then use the transport available to get whatever I can back to cairo on UK 2 if anything is left in Ethiopia (leave one starting inf in S Africa to join up with a mech or armor to hit Cairo on UK 4 if necessary).  Rarely but sometimes will I take the transport from India to help. Â

This is all assuming Germany is not helping.  If they are helping it makes it much more difficult.  I actually prefer when the axis do that though because that means they are not spending the money to wipe out russia.  I buy the MIC in Persia most games but if Cairo is secure enough early I like to buy it there.  When I have 2 MIC’s I always have a hard time with money trying to get stuff to all three places (London,Cairo,Persia).  Just Inf in the two Minors is 18 of your 30 to 35 IPC’s.