Ok, so if I corrected all the mistakes I made in my first PBF game with you, we should see the second game created HERE!
GL&HF
:)
3 submarines = 1 battleship ?%%????
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Each country does have its own IPC count and hopefully its own units if there are enough colours. I need to find out how many colours there are in AA, AAE and AAP altogether.
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The eight sides are: Uk, USA, Germany, Russia, Italy, Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, and France. However, USA and Italy will only enter the game when special conditions are me, heheh. :roll:
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You proved my point about it being about killing [sic] and not money. If it was about cash in citizens pockets, what about the cold war? The world powers are nations like the U.S. and China, and Russia, and to a lesser extent Britian/France. Why is it not the Nethetheralnds or Japan? Israel has more influence than Japan. That is because of their miliatry.
Anyway, U.S. is on top because we give/sell guns all over the place. It is sad.
About the WW1 mod, what are the conditions for the U.S. and Italy enterign the war?
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“The world powers are nations like the U.S. and China, and Russia, and to a lesser extent Britian/France. Why is it not the Nethetheralnds or Japan? Israel has more influence than Japan.”
Uh… the GNP of Netherlands isn’t exactly up there with the rest of them. Also I consider Japan a greater world power than Russia. Just a thought.
“Israel has more influence than Japan.”
Exactly more “influence” on what? Seriously, the most I ever heard of Israel was actions in the middle east, unless, you can point out that Israel exerts “influence” on Asia or vise-versa.
“About the WW1 mod, what are the conditions for the U.S. and Italy enterign the war?”
As Emu puts it, US will get into the war eventually, though the question is when? This depends on when the Lusitania is sunk g :roll:
As for Italy, they can actually choose what side to fight in! Though Emu is still working on the conditions for this. -
@TG:
Ozone, I like your idea on using zeppelines (though you do know in real life, those zeppelines were a failure, right? :roll:), so talk with Emu as he is the chief mod builder - I’m just a helper.
Also (and I’m sorry if it burst your bubble), but A&A: WWI be using the A&A: Europe map so no Pacific or African fighting (though there is some).
That’s a real shame about the no African/Pacific fighting, but I can understand–the colonial battles were pretty much a wash for Germany (with their overly-lethargic and aimless Naval strategy) with only a couple of victories, and only one colony holding out till the Armistice (or rather a tiny guerrilla group in one of their colonies).
As far as the Zeppelins I think it’d be a SUPER-LETDOWN if they were not featured. American “precision” bombing, as well as Germany’s submarine blockade of UK in WW2 were also failures, but like the “Zeppelin strategy” they were pretty good ideas at the time, and were included in (at least some incarnations) in A & A. Zepps could definitely be made to work in the context of the game, but I can’t seem to come up w/ any specific details of how they should work. Here’s some general ideas I came up with:
1.) They should be either units (i.e. that you can buy), or possibly something special like a technology that allows some kind of strategic raid each turn–a little like A & A “Rockets”. I prefer the “they’re units” option, but the “technology” option might be easier.
2.)They should pretty much be a Germany-only thing. Germany pretty much dominated the rigid-airship technology before and during WWI. If other countries can build Zepps, there should be a reason why they wouldn’t, like maybe they don’t start with any on the board and they don’t work well in small #s, where Germany starts w/ 1 or more. Or maybe its a “free tech” that Germany starts w/ but others have to research (although a tech that allows the building of a whole different unit might be unfeasable).
3.)They should start the game at their peak, and lose effectiveness over time. Zepps should be relatively vulnerable to winged aircraft–maybe as the game progresses there are just more aircraft on the board on all sides, or maybe they become more effective over time (like thru tech). At the start of the War, no aeroplane could fly higher, or climb even CLOSE to as fast, as a Zeppelin–not to mention their prodigious bomb capacity–therefore the “Zeppelin strategy” was actually a solid plan at that time.
4.) If there are AA guns in this game, Zepps should be virtually immune. Zeppelins (especially the later “height-climbers”) were virtually immune to WW1-grade AA guns–they could just simply fly higher (and climb faster) than the guns could reach.
5.) In line w/ 3 & 4 above, if a Zeppelin raid is similar to an A & A bomber raid, then AA (if there are any in the game) should be ineffective, where planes provide some sort of defense–like say, 1 shot at a roll of 1 against 1 Zepp for each plane. Later in the game, the Zepps raids get more risky because of the planes (maybe there are more of them or maybe they are just more effective).
6.) Zeppelin raids (if they are similar to A & A raids) should be more of a gamble. They usually score little-to-moderate damage, but a lucky round should have the potential to be a game-winner if it comes at the right time: as long as the payoff, though rare, could be worth the investment so that people have a reason to build them. It should definitely be a choice of whether to invest in, say Zepps, and/or SUBs and/or more armies/navy as a strategy to win the war, but failure to win w/ Zepps or SUBs or whatever shouldn’t destroy a prudent player–the failure of the Zeppelin strategy and the submarine strategy did not, in themselves, cost Germany the war, it was a combination of things…
7.) If Zeppelins are a unit, I think they should have these capabilities: Attack:1 (Zepps were used against infantry early in the war but were largely ineffective, and the raids were at low altitude and therefore overly dangerous). Defense:0 (one guy w/ a cigarette lighter and a Zeppelin is toast on the ground). But Zeppelins would have 2 special abilities: strategic bombing raids–representing material damage, but also falling production due to a terrorized workforce; and a special “transport” ability. Zeppelins were used extensively in WWI for supply and troop transport by Germany and they had a range unmatched by winged aircraft.In a “transport” run, the Zeppelin would have to forego its combat move, but on NonCombat, it could transport 1 INF up to its flight range–just like “Paratroopers” except without the attack ability–this would be useable only to get troops around (a good place to use it would be Africa, but of course its not included). So the strength of the Zeppelin would only really be in it’s strategic bombing ability, but the Zepps a Germany player has he could still use even if he opts out of a strong “Zeppelin strategy”.
In 1919, a German-built Zeppelin became the first lighter-than-air craft (or ANY aircraft) to cross the Atlantic. If these “super-Zeppelins” had been ready during the war, the USA could surely have been bombed. This possibility has GOT to be included in the game!
Anyway, you guys are the experts and I hope that I have not presumed too much in my comments. I have a LOT of other ideas (especially about naval stuff), but I don’t wanna get on your nerves. I am not a game-creator, just an enthusiast, so maybe a practical Zeppelin model is just not feasible. Maybe a thread just on this subject would be in order (if there’s enough interest). Just, please–do the research; if possible, put Zepps in your game!
Ozone2
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Hmmm… you do make a convincing argument.
Let’s run down your points, shall we?“1.) They should be either units (i.e. that you can buy), or possibly something special like a technology that allows some kind of strategic raid each turn–a little like A & A “Rockets”. I prefer the “they’re units” option, but the “technology” option might be easier.”
An unlockable tech might be what you’re after (which Emu is using) if you want to include blimps. Germany should have access to them first, while all the other countries have to research them. For example, in the game, all other countries start with the artillery tech already researched, except for Russia, which must pay and roll to unlock it them.
"2.)They should pretty much be a Germany-only thing. Germany pretty much dominated the rigid-airship technology before and during WWI. If other countries can build Zepps, there should be a reason why they wouldn’t, like maybe they don’t start with any on the board and they don’t work well in small #s, where Germany starts w/ 1 or more. Or maybe its a “free tech” that Germany starts w/ but others have to research (although a tech that allows the building of a whole different unit might be unfeasable).”
Read what I said in the first response. But at the start of the game, Germany might have only 1 or 2 zeppelins, while the other countries have none.
“3.)They should start the game at their peak, and lose effectiveness over time. Zepps should be relatively vulnerable to winged aircraft–maybe as the game progresses there are just more aircraft on the board on all sides, or maybe they become more effective over time (like thru tech). At the start of the War, no aeroplane could fly higher, or climb even CLOSE to as fast, as a Zeppelin–not to mention their prodigious bomb capacity–therefore the “Zeppelin strategy” was actually a solid plan at that time.”
Maybe the zeppelins should really start out weak, but Germany must pay to make them stronger. But I not to keen on units starting out powerful, and gradually losing their effectiveness—sorry that doesn’t quite fit in with the overall flavor of the game (esp. if zeppelins are to be a unlockable tech)
“4.) If there are AA guns in this game, Zepps should be virtually immune. Zeppelins (especially the later “height-climbers”) were virtually immune to WW1-grade AA guns–they could just simply fly higher (and climb faster) than the guns could reach.”
Sure. But as a side note, there will be no AA guns in this game. They will be replaced with “Gas Units,” which are an alternative version of artillery.
“5.) In line w/ 3 & 4 above, if a Zeppelin raid is similar to an A & A bomber raid, then AA (if there are any in the game) should be ineffective, where planes provide some sort of defense–like say, 1 shot at a roll of 1 against 1 Zepp for each plane. Later in the game, the Zepps raids get more risky because of the planes (maybe there are more of them or maybe they are just more effective).”
Well, I think we want to have more of a A&A:Europe style strategic bombing. (But what was the distance of a biplane? How long could it stay up in the air?). I’ll have to work on these details later.
6.) Zeppelin raids (if they are similar to A & A raids) should be more of a gamble. They usually score little-to-moderate damage, but a lucky round should have the potential to be a game-winner if it comes at the right time: as long as the payoff, though rare, could be worth the investment so that people have a reason to build them. It should definitely be a choice of whether to invest in, say Zepps, and/or SUBs and/or more armies/navy as a strategy to win the war, but failure to win w/ Zepps or SUBs or whatever shouldn’t destroy a prudent player–the failure of the Zeppelin strategy and the submarine strategy did not, in themselves, cost Germany the war, it was a combination of things…"
Yeah, the ability for zeppelins to deliver their payloads and see how much damage they cause be should random. However, at this moment, we don’t even know how much they cost!
“7.) If Zeppelins are a unit, I think they should have these capabilities: Attack:1 (Zepps were used against infantry early in the war but were largely ineffective, and the raids were at low altitude and therefore overly dangerous). Defense:0 (one guy w/ a cigarette lighter and a Zeppelin is toast on the ground). But Zeppelins would have 2 special abilities: strategic bombing raids–representing material damage, but also falling production due to a terrorized workforce; and a special “transport” ability. Zeppelins were used extensively in WWI for supply and troop transport by Germany and they had a range unmatched by winged aircraft.In a “transport” run, the Zeppelin would have to forego its combat move, but on NonCombat, it could transport 1 INF up to its flight range–just like “Paratroopers” except without the attack ability–this would be useable only to get troops around (a good place to use it would be Africa, but of course its not included). So the strength of the Zeppelin would only really be in it’s strategic bombing ability, but the Zepps a Germany player has he could still use even if he opts out of a strong “Zeppelin strategy”.”
“I like it! However, we still have to ask ourselves other questions? What is the movement rating of Zeppelines? The use of a transportation system would be great for moving inf to the frontlines where they are needed most.”
“In 1919, a German-built Zeppelin became the first lighter-than-air craft (or ANY aircraft) to cross the Atlantic. If these “super-Zeppelins” had been ready during the war, the USA could surely have been bombed. This possibility has GOT to be included in the game!”
Hahaha… who knows? Maybe? The main problem me and Emu have is the lack of units. Right now we have two types of biplanes: reconnaissance/spotters and fighters/light bombers. However, if your idea runs past Emu, we might consider taking out 1 of the units (probably reconnaissance/spotters) in favor of your Zeppelins. “Super-Zeppelins?” Who knows? We already have Super-Dreadnoughts!
:wink: -
I’ve been trying like hell to get a downloadable scan of the A & A Europe board (I don’t own the game as yet), so I could give you a few ideas about ranges. If I could LOOK at the board it’d probably not be too hard to give you a decent range figure for Zepps/ “Super-Zepps”.
If I may be so bold, might I suggest a separate “scout” and “bomber” category for airplanes. As w/ A & A, the “bombers” (representing 2-or-more-seat planes) would have a longer range, but would be less able to fight other aircraft and have a poorer defense value. “Bombers” should increase in range w/ new technology.
A & A Europe’s Strategic Bombing model makes a lot more sense than A & A’s, but keep in mind that NO “scout-type” biplane in WWI had the capability to fly such long distances as to provide close escort to a Belgium-London bomb run. Ever. Defensively the system would work. Incidentally, one of the “Zeppelin strategy’s” major victories was the large amount of military forces (planes, guns & men) that UK had to keep in Britain to defend against them, rather than send them to the front…
Maybe (just a thought) you could have as land units Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery. The Cavalry get less useful as the game progresses but are useable in the opening rounds as a “shock-type” weapon. I know you don’t like units that decrease in effectiveness–but I’m thinking like standard A & A Battleships; something you wouldn’t BUY, but would be useful for certain purposes (like invading lightly-defended territories. Of course, armor will eventually make its appearance.
I think NOT including AA is a good idea. AA guns in WWI were quite primitive.
How are you gonna handle gas? I’m impressed you guys are even willing to tackle that one (its a moral can of worms).
Can’t Russian Empire start the game with Artillery? They had it–and it was often of good quality–there was just; a.)not nearly enough of it; b.) not enough ammo for its effective use (a common problem for belligerents in 1914-15, and; c.) it (being indifferently trained) had a tendency to flee the battlefield at inopportune moments, abandoning the infantry to its fate. Maybe Russia could just start the game with very few guns, and be too poor to afford to buy many more.
:D BTW blimps and Zeppelins are NOT the same thing! :D A blimp is a gasbag with no internal structure. A “Zeppelin” is a rigid airship with an internal “skeleton” and one or more “gas cells” inside. Zeppelins are more sturdy and are less likely to buckle in heavy winds or under excess weight. This is one reason Zepps can be made vastly larger than any conventional blimp.
You don’t need to know this–there will be no test. This information is only important to airship nerds like me :wink:!
Ozone27
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@TG:
Maybe the zeppelins should really start out weak, but Germany must pay to make them stronger. But I not to keen on units starting out powerful, and gradually losing their effectiveness—sorry that doesn’t quite fit in with the overall flavor of the game (esp. if zeppelins are to be a unlockable tech)
…Yeah, good point. Peter Strasser (the architect of Germany’s WWI Zeppelin strategy) had to bust his a$$ getting funding for new and mightier Zeppelin designs. The first Zeppelins of WWI had a ceiling of about 3000 feet. By the end of the war, the “height-climbers” had an altitude rating of 17,000-20,000 feet!!! This was above the level that then-current technology could sustain life; breathing, de-icing and other apparati had to be developed. This is a signifigant IMPROVEMENT of technology, not a decrease.
I just meant that the job of the Zepp should get more dangerous over the course of the game…
Ozone27
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I see your point Ozone. But the problem with Cavalry is that there areno pieces that could be used for them. I thought about adding them in, but there were no pieces. As for zeppelins, I might just make them a German only technology that will be like rockets though I’ll have to discuss it with Moses too. I think giving them as a German only technology will be good because every other power will also have a speical technology that does different things when used.
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I see your point Ozone. But the problem with Cavalry is that there areno pieces that could be used for them. I thought about adding them in, but there were no pieces. As for zeppelins, I might just make them a German only technology that will be like rockets though I’ll have to discuss it with Moses too. I think giving them as a German only technology will be good because every other power will also have a speical technology that does different things when used.
How effective were cavalry? AFAIR the Canadians sent in cavalry, but didn’t get very far with them (the Germans made a lot of fun of us for this, actually, but we kicked them out of Vimy ridge, so that’s ok).
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“I’ve been trying like hell to get a downloadable scan of the A & A Europe board (I don’t own the game as yet), so I could give you a few ideas about ranges. If I could LOOK at the board it’d probably not be too hard to give you a decent range figure for Zepps/ “Super-Zepps”.”
Ask Emu was his WWI board that we are using for this Mod. I takes a while to download, though. As for the range, I think Zepps should have a range of 4/5 and Super Zepps should have a range of 5/6. Remember, there are airbases in this game! So a low number (such as 4), might be a higher number in reality.
“If I may be so bold, might I suggest a separate “scout” and “bomber” category for airplanes. As w/ A & A, the “bombers” (representing 2-or-more-seat planes) would have a longer range, but would be less able to fight other aircraft and have a poorer defense value. “Bombers” should increase in range w/ new technology.”
The problem is that even if we do have two classes of planes, there leaves no unit to represent airships (in this case, airships would have to be represented by bombers).
“A & A Europe’s Strategic Bombing model makes a lot more sense than A & A’s, but keep in mind that NO “scout-type” biplane in WWI had the capability to fly such long distances as to provide close escort to a Belgium-London bomb run. Ever. Defensively the system would work. Incidentally, one of the “Zeppelin strategy’s” major victories was the large amount of military forces (planes, guns & men) that UK had to keep in Britain to defend against them, rather than send them to the front…”
True. So the main advantage of the zepp would be it’s “climp” ability. And also, planes would become more advanced, so they would also defend at a higher number. I guess we would have to compare upgraded vs. unupgraded units to find out what each fighter defends at.
“Maybe (just a thought) you could have as land units Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery. The Cavalry get less useful as the game progresses but are useable in the opening rounds as a “shock-type” weapon. I know you don’t like units that decrease in effectiveness–but I’m thinking like standard A & A Battleships; something you wouldn’t BUY, but would be useful for certain purposes (like invading lightly-defended territories. Of course, armor will eventually make its appearance.”
I’m sure Emu already explained the difficulty in doing this (lack of units to represent Calvary).
“How are you gonna handle gas? I’m impressed you guys are even willing to tackle that one (its a moral can of worms).”
Well I think gas will be more of an “area of effect” type unit. Plus you also have to tackle the question, “what if the wind shifts directions?” In this case you would actually lose your own units! :o
“Can’t Russian Empire start the game with Artillery? They had it–and it was often of good quality–there was just; a.)not nearly enough of it; b.) not enough ammo for its effective use (a common problem for belligerents in 1914-15, and; c.) it (being indifferently trained) had a tendency to flee the battlefield at inopportune moments, abandoning the infantry to its fate. Maybe Russia could just start the game with very few guns, and be too poor to afford to buy many more.”
Talk to Emu on this. It may not be “historically correct,” though we generally want the Eastern Front to be the “weaker” of the two Fronts to give the Central Powers some breathing space so they don’t feel so boxed in.
“BTW blimps and Zeppelins are NOT the same thing! A blimp is a gasbag with no internal structure. A “Zeppelin” is a rigid airship with an internal “skeleton” and one or more “gas cells” inside. Zeppelins are more sturdy and are less likely to buckle in heavy winds or under excess weight. This is one reason Zepps can be made vastly larger than any conventional blimp.”
Hahahaha :lol: … thanks for point that out.
“(the Germans made a lot of fun of us for this, actually, but we kicked them out of Vimy ridge, so that’s ok).”
Why does ever Canuck seem to know about Vimy Ridge? Hmmmm… :roll:
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@TG:
“(the Germans made a lot of fun of us for this, actually, but we kicked them out of Vimy ridge, so that’s ok).”
Why does ever Canuck seem to know about Vimy Ridge? Hmmmm… :roll:
hey! it’s important to know what’s good as well as what’s bad. So our European cavalry wasn’t very effective, but at least our infantry was. That was merely my point.
Also to answer your question further, some believe that Vimy Ridge was a defining point in our nation’s history. That this set us apart from the rest of the world by showing what we could do. Thus every Canadian knows about Vimy Ridge, and the 1972 summit series between Canada and the USSR when Paul Henderson scored the winning goal . . . important momments in Canadian history. :D -
I see your point Ozone. But the problem with Cavalry is that there areno pieces that could be used for them. I thought about adding them in, but there were no pieces. As for zeppelins, I might just make them a German only technology that will be like rockets though I’ll have to discuss it with Moses too. I think giving them as a German only technology will be good because every other power will also have a speical technology that does different things when used.
Use RISK pieces for the cavalry. Except that none of the colors are the same I guess, so that wouldn’t work…
Another must-have for Germany is the “Storm Troopers” technology. These guys would attack way above normal infantry (though less than Armor), but defend as normal. Maybe they’d be like Artillery that were cheaper, I dunno…
Using BMRs as Zeppelin pieces is pretty unsatisfying. Maybe you could whittle 'em out of something :) . You can also cut them out of cardboard and fasten them to a little plastic base…
OK, maybe I’m getting a little too “ghetto” w/ that last idea :lol: , but still that’d free up the BMRs pieces for actual bombers…
Ozone27
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“hey! it’s important to know what’s good as well as what’s bad. So our European cavalry wasn’t very effective, but at least our infantry was. That was merely my point.
Also to answer your question further, some believe that Vimy Ridge was a defining point in our nation’s history. That this set us apart from the rest of the world by showing what we could do. Thus every Canadian knows about Vimy Ridge, and the 1972 summit series between Canada and the USSR when Paul Henderson scored the winning goal . . . important momments in Canadian history.”I am happy you ‘Canucks’ (as TG puts it) are proud of your rich history. But try not to put us Americans on the receiving end, okay? :)
“Another must-have for Germany is the “Storm Troopers” technology. These guys would attack way above normal infantry (though less than Armor), but defend as normal. Maybe they’d be like Artillery that were cheaper, I dunno…”
I always come to know that the ‘Storm Troopers’ or ‘Shock Troopers’ were a part Nazi Germany under the directive of Adolf Hitler. My recollection of German “crack units” in World War One was the Elite Prussians Guards. These Guards manned the Kaiser’s heavy machineguns made life tremendously difficult :( for our brave American ‘Doughboys’ advancing through the Argonne Forest, which would be our ‘Vimy Ridge’ :)
PS: I do not know what I am saying is true as older brother teaches my history
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NO. WWI storm troopers were light troops developed in late 1917 by Germany in an attempt to circumvent the “in-depth” defensive line that had been adopted by the Allies by that time. Basically the “Sturmtruppen” were armed with “trench-brooms” (light machine guns), flamethrowers and light mortars, and very lightly-encumbered with minimal equipment. They were well-trained and well-fed and were tasked with pushing past the enemy’s main defensive points, bypassing local resistance, and advancing deep into enemy-held territory while the regular infantry brought up the rear. These were the crack troops that achieved the 1918 “Kaiserschlacht” breakthroughs and were an entirely new concept in warfare. In the absence of signifigant armored cavalry, these units were the next best thing and had a profound influence on subsequent military theory.
As with many famous WWI German military successes, the Nazis tried to tie the image of the “storm troops” with their own in the public mind. While the storm-troop strategy remained an important military idea, the Nazis really had nothing to do with its conception.
Ozone27
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"Another must-have for Germany is the “Storm Troopers” technology. These guys would attack way above normal infantry (though less than Armor), but defend as normal. Maybe they’d be like Artillery that were cheaper, I dunno… "
Maybe. Each country has a “special ability” unique to that country only. For example the Russians have the “Bolshevik Revolution” and Austria-Hungary has the “Two Country Rule.” I think Germany’s special ability has already been used, so you might have to talk to Emu about this. Also, we have no units to represent them, which might be another difficulty.
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@TG:
Maybe. Each country has a “special ability” unique to that country only. For example the Russians have the “Bolshevik Revolution” and Austria-Hungary has the “Two Country Rule.” I think Germany’s special ability has already been used, so you might have to talk to Emu about this. Also, we have no units to represent them, which might be another difficulty.
I’m thinking of Storm Troopers as being a technology that Germany can research that improves normal INF–like “super Infantry”. So possibly, no new units necessary…
What is “Bolshevik Revolution” gonna do–Russia is automatically out of the game :lol: ? What is the “2 country rule”?
Ozone27
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Moses go it slightly wrong. Austria-Hungary’s special technology is “The Dual Monarchy”. IT gives Austria-Hungary two capitals, so if one is taken only half of the empire’s IPCs are plundered and the rest remain. It makes Austria-Hungary harder to destroy because of its two capitals.
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Emu, what was Germany’s then?
I thought you told be, but I guess I forgot. :-? -
I had some ideas for Germany’s but I never committed to anything. I think “Zeppelin Raids” would be a good one if we can’t find any units to use as zeppelins.
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