What is so bad about taking Karelia in the first turn(s)?

[yourbuttocks]

I can understand what you are saying, however, I believe that the only way the axis can win is to crush Russia between Japan and Germany. I believe that this is easier with a small bid for German troops in the eastern front.

You often talk about how Germany should fall back and let Russia have the Ukraine and Finland. BUt then U.S.S.R. has as much money as Germany! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: BUt a German attack on a well stocked Karelia plus Japanes attacks on S.F.E.A.
and Yakut will destroy from 16 INF 1 FTR to 26 INF 1 FTR 2 ARM. That is out of a 1st turn Russian total of like 27 INF 4 ARM 2 FTR. In one turn the Axis can cut the Russian IPC by 1/3 and forces by 1/2 to 3/4. While Russia can mount counter attaacks, they have only enough forces for the second turn to launch a mild counter attack (they have mostly infnatry) and even then they would be ignoring one side.

After a few turns, and the allies can finally begin to give Russia more aid than a couple of fighters, but by then Japan should have penetrated all the way to Kazakstan, and be putting pressure on Moscow, pinning down Russian troops. Germany should have drained Russia’s resources via a seesaw battle over Karelia, which by now should fall permanently to Germany (at least as far as Russia is concerned, I suppose the allies could land troops, but Germany’s income should have gone up in Africa, which would also draw off allied troops) because the Japanese would pin Russian troops in Russia.

[Guest]

@yourbuttocks:

I can understand what you are saying, however, I believe that the only way the axis can win is to crush Russia between Japan and Germany.

You are absolutely correct! But it’s not a pincher attack - Japan is the Hammer and Germany is the Anvil.
@yourbuttocks:

You often talk about how Germany should fall back and let Russia have the Ukraine and Finland. BUt then U.S.S.R. has as much money as Germany! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: BUt a German attack on a well stocked Karelia plus Japanes attacks on S.F.E.A.
and Yakut will destroy from 16 INF 1 FTR to 26 INF 1 FTR 2 ARM. That is out of a 1st turn Russian total of like 27 INF 4 ARM 2 FTR. In one turn the Axis can cut the Russian IPC by 1/3 and forces by 1/2 to 3/4.

Are you talking about hitting Karelia with everything on Germany’s first turn, including all 5 fighters and a bomber? Because unless you are, what you have described is simply not possible, and even then it is suicide.

Download the odds calculator from this website - P10000 - and take a look at the information below:

Russia can have 19 Infantry, 3 Tanks, 2 Fighters, and 1 AA Gun in Karelia.

The most Germany can attack with is 11 Infantry, 7 Tanks, 5 Fighters, and 1 Bomber.

Germany has a 60% chance of winning, so 40% of the time they will throw away their game on the first turn. When they do win, the typical results will be to have 1-2 Tanks left, 4 Fighters, and 1 Bomber. Since they didn’t attack the North Sea, the UK can hit Karelia back with 2 Infantry, 1 Battleship, 2 Fighters, and 1 Bomber. This force has an 85% chance of taking back Karelia against 5 tanks, so even if you get lucky against Russia you will still lose Karelia on UK1.

[TM Moses VII]

I will try not to attack Russia too early with Germany unless I have to. Axis players quiting the game after the first turn from one battle is not sportsmanlike behavior.

[Ansbach]

Here is something your Allied opponents might not be doing - they should be landing fighters in Karelia to help defend it, and Russia should be putting 6-8 infantry in Karelia every turn. That will keep it from falling before the Allied pipeline shows up.

[TG Moses VI]

Well usually the combination of 18 inf and 2 ftrs in Karelia will be more than enough to blunt an German offensive into the Motherland. However, if you know you’re still not secure, then shift your ARM there too (remember, they’re just as strong as inf!).

For the Allied ftrs, I think they can be used elsewhere, such as landing on carrier (very important if the Allies want to rebuild their fleet) or attacking any lone German subs that survived the first round of combat. My suggestion goes to the former, if Germany does manage to take Karelia, you need to build up a transport fleet very fast and a carrier will make sure that the Luftwaffe won’t dare touch it.

[Mr Ghoul]

As I posted somewhere else, I sometimes like to pull out of Karelia with Russia (place one inf there at end of turn) and Stack the Caucasus instead.

It throws some people off.

What would you people do if you encounter that scenario?

[TG Moses VI]

Take Karelia (maybe with forces from Norway). This prevents Russians from building there next turn.

[Guest]

works out great for russia if germany actually tries to keep it, but a reasonably smart germany wont actually plan on holding it. a smart germany will take it, and non combat his tanks from norway. this is really a trap manuver to try and sucker germany into committing a large concentration of troops into a killing ground. heh, have suckered lots of newbies, and a few arrogant experienced players with this one.

[TG Moses VI]

Yeah, don’t get greedy with Germany. Attack Karelia with 3 inf from Norway and non-combat that ARM out of there. By forcing Russia to retake Karelia, you delay them enough to ready defenses across Eastern Europe and maybe hold Ukraine for an extra turn.

[Guest]

usually when i do the russian pull back, i have all russia’s tanks in novabrisk. if germany puts a large force in kar, i take it out, if they dont, i take the tanks to japan.
the pull back allows you to keep nearly all your units, and forces the germans to really think about what they wanna do. by pulling back, it allows you to gain a position where you have 4 tanks and 2 planes that can reach nearly any potential targets of opertunity. like the time i did this and the japs had left just 2 troops to guard 3 planes and a factory in manchuria. hit em with 4 tanks 2 fighters, and 5 troops, eliminating them pesky fighters, and delaying them using the factory.
the real reason it worked long term was because i had a friendly britain sending me fighters for defence, while amerca was doing the flotilla thing. doesnt work quite so well when your allies are uncoordinated.

overall, not the most effective tactic, but fun and works under certain cuircumstances. i even won a turnament with it once. the german guy was normally pretty good, but he was “convinced” that i was a noob, and fell for it hook, line and sinker. psychology in a game can be fun :)

[TG Moses VI]

Yes, almost every competitive game I played has a deeper metagame.

[yourbuttocks]

I’m not neccessarily saying that Germany should take Karelia, but they should threaten it at least, for two reasons, 1 to drain IPCs via hit and runs, 2 to pin down IPCs defending Karelia (and not attacking Japan or the Ukraine)

If Russia well stocks Karelia (Russia restricted) and Germany only takes it with like two tanks, than it doesn’t matter because the british can’t counter attack for 2-4 turnsand the Russians are exhausted. In a turn or two, when the Japanese knock on Moscow, the Russians have almost nothing left.

[city on a hill]

I don’t mind letting USSR keep Karelia, because after Japan is done, that’s all their gonna have. 8)

[Guest]

One thing not considered so far is what Germany is really to do in the east. I feel they have to engage the russians at some point or else the soviets will simply stack infantry. After three turns of eight infantry per turn that’s around 30. This will impossible for Germany to overcome also US and UK will be entering the fray at this point.
Japan should be close to Moscow by now but will still have a hard time taking it.
Unless you’re aiming for an IPC victory i really think that Germany has to hit Russia but also not overextend their all too crucial armor, it’s delicate balance

[EmuGod]

I dont know about what you said as Japan. As Japan, I like to have at leas 2, if not 3, factories on mainland Asia. One on Yakut, one on India, and one on Indo-China. This lets Japan move 8 infantry a turn to threaten Moscow. That forces Russia to remove a lot of forces to the east. I only do this once I have Novosibirsk and usually Evenki or Kazakh. Russia is barely holding onto the skin of its teeth by then and has to funnel forces ot the east to counter the Japanese stack. This eventually weaken Karelia enough to even the odds for a German invasion of Karelia.

[TG Moses VI]

I would probably suggest going against building an IC in Yakrut for Japan. It’s much more economical to just buy two transports instead. Usually when I set up an IC (India or Burma, maybe for both), it’s to produce ARM and not inf. I think that 6 ARM should be more than enough (if you factor in supporting inf) per Japan once it hits critical mass.