for anyone who peruses this sub-forum. I’ve edited the original documents for readability and removed all the bragging. Should be an easier read: https://www.mediafire.com/file/s1fbbddjic865af/Don_Rae_Hindsight_2020.docx/file
German strategy
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Im trying to do a blitz here. Infantry can move only one space a turn. I have revised it slightly by buying a fighter, and then tanks. With the tanks in Germany, and if russia manages to take karelia back from you, you can strike her again.
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Axis victory by Turn 5?
First off, I’m a newbies–played only 4 times. Board game, 2nd ed rule with Russia Restricted and no other variants.
I’d read many many comments that Allies always win. While I agree that the Allies have a strong advantage (eg USA, UK, & Rus IC are 1 turn away from Germany whereas Jap IC are lightyear away), I believe that advantage only translate to an Allies victory 60-65% of the time.
This is the strategy I used to get an Axis victory by Turn 5 (which works about 40% of the time–I won 4 out 4 that I played, the 40% odd was roughly estimated by on odd of the individual battles).
Germany Turn 1 (G1):
Buy: 1 Tran 7 Inf (29 IPC) w/ 3 IPC in bank.
Attacks:- BB Tran w/ 2 Inf attack Brit sub in Iraq sz and then invade Iraq with additional bomber.
- Arm & Inf from Libya and Fighter (Ukraine) blitz and attack Egypt.
- Sub (W Eur) & Fighter (E Eur) attack BB (Gibraltar)
- 3 Fighter (Nor, W Eur, Ger), Sub & Tran (Baltic) attack North Sea Fleet, usually Brit BB & Tran and Rus Sub and Tran.
- Blitz Spain (hence the 3 IPC saved) & capture Gibraltar – reason, if Ger capture Gib, Iraq, & Egypt, Brit can’t attack Ger fleet because there’s no place to land.
Probability of winning all battle with min loss is 42%.
Depending of what Rus does on R1, either min attack Caucasus or else curl up into a ball (eg if Rus put 7 Inf in Cau & 13 Inf 3 Arm 2 Fighter in Kar, withdraw from Ukraine and defend E Eur; if Rus put 1 Inf in Cau and 19 Inf 3 Arm 2 Fighter in Kar, attack Cau and withdraw from BOTH E Eur & Ukr–reason, that 19 Inf have 50% to 90% of killing off everything in E Eur even if Ger put 8 Inf 8 Arm 2-4 Fighter).
Non-Combat: move the Egypt bomber & fighter into Libya (bomber is now in range of both India & S Africa). Land remaining fighter in W Eur and/or E Eur.
J1:
Buy: 2 Trans & 3 Inf (25 IPC, none left)
Attack:- The REAL Pearl Harbor, 2 Fighter (Philippine & CV) 1 Bomber & 1 Sub vs US Sub CV & Fighter
Prob of success 90+% (you’ll lose 1 fighter & sub in pearl harbor). - Depending on Rus & Brit moves, attack one or 2 ter. (eg if Brit move tran to red sea, attack that with fighter from IndoChina to clear path for G2 invasion of S Africa or India). If Brit build India Factory, attack south. Else attack the weaker of US or Rus.
NonCombat: move both BB & the CV into invasion range of the attack route.
So in any case, the idea between this strategy is to grab Africa & Asia & Pacific by Turn 3/4 to get to 84 IPC victory. The T1 move essentially knock the allies out of them. Ger will concede Europe and build up Inf to recapture in Turn 3 to 5. Ger fleet is now safe until Turn 3 with an extra tran to land some more inf into afr. Jap is safe from US and can concentrate on massing an attack and capturing asia/pacific. Since Allies have no IC in Asia/Africa, it’ll be hard for them to defend. If Rus try to defend both front, Ger (with its buy of all Inf) will be able to control E Eur/Ukr/Cau and possibly Kar. In fact, Axis does not have to capture Kar nor Russia to win. They can get to 84 IPC without them. The only chance the Allies have to is land armor in Africa or to do Normandy by Turn 4.
With this strategy, Axis should win 40% of the time by Turn 5.
Obviously, I have limited experience, so would like to hear the expert on how they can defeat this strategy.
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Good job. :smile:
A turn five EV is possible like you said. But make sure you can defend your positions in Africa! That is key. Now there’s the advantage of not having to spend large troops in order to hold the Russian Front. Use these extra inf to your advantage. Also with Germany, how many transports do you expect to buy? -
Wait a mo’! He cannot blitz Spain(a neutal country in which his forces must stop) and then take out Gibralter on G1.
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“Are we makin’up rules as we go? I posted re: this problem before.” - Xi -
I think I’ll start responding to the other thread. What can I say? Scrolling down is hard. :sad:
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Yanni and Moses, I’m curious about your opinions on an interesting variation that I play with some friends…
The historical background is based on this false premis: Germany remains very friendly to the US and respects all US citizens and assets. Due to excellent diplomacy, the US is unable to declare war on Germany.
1.) No Weapons development.
2.) 2 Hit BBs, but NO RR.
3.) US not allowed to attack German territories and units until a)Japan proper is captured, or b) Germany attacks an American unit.
This variation can be very fun because it finally forces America to do something in the Pacific. It also forces Britain to pick up the slack in Africa. Both nations can still rienforce RUS with fighters.
Please tell me what you think…
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Sound like a good plan you got there. :)
However, is there anything else to distinguish it from Japan First strat, which is also a valid and often used tactic third only to the “Conveyor Belt” and D-Day?For example I like your throw in the UK-Germ Seasaw battle in Africa. How about making the scale even greater (changing IPC values, beefing up both sides’ Med Fleet, more ARM, making the Suez Canal more vital). Maybe we’ll get a greater perspective on the Afrika Korps vs. the British 8th Army.
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Arggh! TG Moses 2-Hit BBs, while a perfectly good A & A rule, are NOT “militaristically” nor historically correct! BBs were by WWII dangerously vulnerable to aircraft fire and/or the torpedo–in spite of various improvements since the 30s including reinforced bulkheads, increased speed & compartmentalization and additional AA defense. CVs just DOMINATED WWII and this is reflected in (regular) A & A. Not knocking “2-hit BBs” as a rule or BBs in reality (they are very cool!) just pointing out “2-hit BBs” is not historically accurate, as I am sure the U.S. Defense Dept. would agree :wink: !
As far as the strategy suggested, I think KING TIGER, as usual, summed it up…'nuff said…
Ozone27
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So basically Allies is always easiest to play with?
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“Arggh! TG Moses 2-Hit BBs, while a perfectly good A & A rule, are NOT “militaristically” nor historically correct! BBs were by WWII dangerously vulnerable to aircraft fire and/or the torpedo–in spite of various improvements since the 30s including reinforced bulkheads, increased speed & compartmentalization and additional AA defense.”
Ha, maybe with wimpy British and German battleships! :wink: But when you’re up against US Iowa Class Battleships which are watertight, great fire control systems, the best mix of advanced proximity AA guns, and 17 inches of armor (count ‘em, 17 inches!) - lets just say that torpedoes and even aircraft will have a very tough time crippling them, let alone sinking even one! 8) For just an idea on how tough these ships would be - consider how hard it was for the US to sink the Japanese Musashi and Yamamoto type BBs (they took A LOT of torpedos before sinking). And our Iowas were even widely regarded by experts as being even better defended against such attacks!
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Neil: It depends on the experience level of you and your opponents - the more experienced you are at the game, the easier it is for the Allies to win. In other words, with two rookies playing each other the game is 50/50, but with two veteran players the Allies can win 90% of the time.
This is the ‘big secret’ of A&A that players figure out through experience, and marks the turning point of becoming a good player. The solution that most players used is bidding. The players bid on who will play the Axis with an amount of extra troops, and whoever chooses the lowest amount of extra troops gets the Axis.
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Ha, I thought the big secret was to always buy infantry! :wink:
Ansbach,
When you play, what it your usual bid? Where do you place?BTW, Excuse me for not saying this earlier but it’s nice to have you back. :)
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@TG:
Ha, I thought the big secret was to always buy infantry! :wink:
Ansbach,
When you play, what it your usual bid? Where do you place?BTW, Excuse me for not saying this earlier but it’s nice to have you back. :)
Thanks TG - good to be back! And yeah, you are absolutely right - I guess there are quite a few “big secrets”, eh?
My bid really, really depends on my best ‘guesstimation’ of my opponent’s level of play - and of course the rules. However, I do have one golden rule that follows what you said - I always buy infantry with my bid! :)
Online I like to play 3rd Edition, Russia Restricted, AA Active, Axis Advantage, and 2-Hit Battleships. My low bid against a good player will be six - 2 infantry in Egypt. If I think my opponent is better than me I will bid 9 for 3 infantry in Egypt and hope I don’t get it. ;)
In real life, we play older rules versions with higher bids. My second favorite place is probably infantry in Burma. This will let me dump max infantry into Manchuria every turn without having to swing the transport fleet down south and split up my infantry - maximum concentration of force and all that. It also discourages an Indian Factory.
I am not a big fan of extra forces in Europe for two reasons:
1.) Germany can always buy troops in Europe. Put your extras in key places that would normally be hard to reinforce.
2.) I personally think that Germany doesn’t even want Karelia - it spreads them out too thin.What about you?
Edit: This would actually be a great topic for a new thread - make everybody spill the beans! Think I’ll start one or find an old one and revive it!
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@TG:
Ha, I thought the big secret was to always buy infantry!
YOU KNOW WHAT YANNY SAYS!(YKWYS!)
@A_h:My bid really, really depends on my best ‘guesstimation’ of my opponent’s level of play - and of course the rules. However, I do have one golden rule that follows what you said - I always buy infantry with my bid! :)
YKWYS!
@A_h:Online I like to play 3rd Edition, Russia Restricted, AA Active, Axis Advantage, and 2-Hit Battleships. My low bid against a good player will be six - 2 infantry in Egypt.
DON’T YOU MEAN 2 INF IN LIBYA?
If I think my opponent is better than me I will bid 9 for 3 infantry in Egypt and hope I don’t get it. ;)
Again with the error!
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Online I like to play 3rd Edition, Russia Restricted, AA Active, Axis Advantage, and 2-Hit Battleships. My low bid against a good player will be six - 2 infantry in Egypt.
DON’T YOU MEAN 2 INF IN LIBYA?
Doh!
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Online I like to play 3rd Edition, Russia Restricted, AA Active, Axis Advantage, and 2-Hit Battleships. My low bid against a good player will be six - 2 infantry in Egypt.
Ha, same with me. I try to get 2 or 3 inf in Libya. However, like you said, extra inf in Burma or Manchuria might also be good if you think you can “predict” your opponent’s strategy.
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when playing Germany, Attack UK navy by the first turn and invade UK with tanks and troops (if you still have your transport!)
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when playing Germany, Attack UK navy by the first turn and invade UK with tanks and troops (if you still have your transport!)
This is an awesome first move! Unfortunately it has little better than a snowball’s chance in hell of succeeding.
Regardless of what you bought, T1 you can get a maximum of 2 INF, 2 FTR, 1 BMR actually onto UK for the attack. That leaves (up to) 2 subs, 3 FTRs for the sea battle–just about enough if the USSR has reinforced UK in North Sea SZ.
The 2 INF, 2 FTR 1 BMR will face 2 INF, 2 FTR, 1 BMR, 1 ARM and that P.I.T.A. AA gun. If you get super lucky, and UK super unlucky, you just might win–but I’ve heard the chances of this happening are something like 1 in 20. What do you do the other 19 times?
An alternative to this plan is to make the attempt T2 when your BB and most of your airforce (which are presumably in Western Europe) might enter the fray. In this scenario you’d sieze Gibraltar T1, endure any counterattack, then (hopefully) attack the North Sea SZ w/ 1 BB, 1 SUB, maybe 1 BMR (or whatever you can get there) while 2 INF and EVERY FTR IN RANGE hit the beach in UK. The UK sometimes might not see the danger–but again, usually the danger is seen and easily thwarted by either sinking the Germany fleet (if possible) or just building a better fleet in the North Sea.
It’s a great dream, but often is not possible for Germany until after USSR has been defeated. If anyone can get me odds on the above attacks it’d be very helpful–also if anyone HAS taken UK early in an actual game, I’d like to know how as well…
Ozone27
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i believe the actually chance to win a G1 attack on britain works out to ~10%. ive seen it done in a tournament, when i was japan! my team mate was this wierd (but fun) guy, who had played all of 3 games, and hated our opponents. my team mate didnt want to spend any time around these guys, so he bet the whole game on that one move, and had the second hottest dice ive ever seen (first hottest was watching russian aa cut down 6 outa 6 shooting down the german airforce, thats right, 6 1’s!!!). after handily defeating the british navy (who completely missed), our hero hit 100% on his first roll as attacker. was the most amazing G1 ive ever seen. the opponents gave us the win, as they didnt want to waist the time to probably lose anyway. almost felt bad for our opponents, but they were usually jerks anyway.
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“The 2 INF, 2 FTR 1 BMR will face 2 INF, 2 FTR, 1 BMR, 1 ARM and that P.I.T.A. AA gun. If you get super lucky, and UK super unlucky, you just might win–but I’ve heard the chances of this happening are something like 1 in 20. What do you do the other 19 times?”
Roll over and die basically. You know what they say, “If at first you don’t succeed, the hell with it!”
“second hottest dice ive ever seen (first hottest was watching russian aa cut down 6 outa 6 shooting down the german airforce, thats right, 6 1’s!!!).”
This happens to me all the time whenever I sent my airforce of to Karelia! Those vodka powered Russians sure have good aim!
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