some more statistics:
"Specifications (Fw 190D-9):
Engine: One 1,176-hp Junkers Jumo 213A-1 inverted V-12 piston engine
Weight: Empty 7,694 lbs., Max Takeoff 10,670 lbs.
Wing Span: 34ft. 5.5in.
Length: 33ft. 5.5in.
Height: 11ft. 0in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 426 mph
Ceiling: 39,370 ft.
Range: 519 miles
Armament:
Two 13-mm (0.51-inch) MG 131 machine guns
Two 20-mm MG 151
One 1,102-pound SC500 bomb
Number Built: 20,051"
http://www.warbirdalley.com/fw190.htm
more advanced versions of the Fw190 were made, supposedly faster and more manueverable than the mustang, but there were engine problems (poor craftsmanship), and only two Ta 152H-1s survived the war.
"Specifications (Bf-109G-6):
Engine: 1800-hp Daimler-Benz DB-605 inverted V-12 piston engine
Weight: Empty 5,893 lbs., Max Takeoff 6,945 lbs.
Wing Span: 32ft. 6.5in.
Length: 29ft. 7in.
Height: 11ft. 2in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed at at 23,000 ft: 385mph
Ceiling: 38,500 ft
Range: 450 miles
Armament:
Two 13mm (0.51-inch) MG131 machine guns
Three 20mm MG151 cannon
Number Built: ~35,000"
i think i stated earlier that there was a me109 built that went somewhere in the 400s, but i can’t find it at this time.
"Specifications (P-51D):
Engine: One 1,695-hp Packard Merlin V-1650-7 piston V-12 engine
Weight: Empty 7,125 lbs., Max Takeoff 12,100 lbs.
Wing Span: 37ft. 0.5in.
Length: 32ft. 9.5in.
Height: 13ft. 8in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 437 mph
Ceiling: 41,900 ft.
Range: 1300 miles
Armament: Six 12.7-mm (0.5 inch) wing-mounted machine guns, plus up to two 1,000-lb bombs or six 127-mm (5 inch) rockets.
Number Built: Approximately 15,018 (including ~200 built in Australia)"
The Mustang was the king of piston engined planes, and in my opinion, the most effective fighter of the war.
Heck yeah! The P-51D was indeed what I considered the best plane of the war. It preformed well at all altitudes and had unmatched fuel endurance and speed. Plus the P-51D was suited for a variety of task ranging from low level dive bomber to high altitude Bomber escorts. If that wasn’t enough the P-51 was also successful against Me-262 Jet Fighters and Communists MiGs in the Korea War.
wasn’t the top P51 faster than the Do335 Pfeil?
i think the mustang holds the record for fastest piston engined plane…
my brother tells me that the maker of a battlebot named “T-Wrex” and “Omega-13” made the fastest piston engined plane and a robotic arm for something to do with the Titanic. i don’t believe him though. Tell me if i’m wrong, but the top mustang goes 484 i believe.
I can dispute the P-51’s “good” record against the Me-262. First off, P-51 pilots had extensive training before combat. So when they went into battle, they were prepared. Many of the P-51 kills against the Me-262 occurred when the Me-262 was either taking off or landing. The Me-262 was vulnerable during take off because its jet engines had poor initial acceleration. During landings, it was hard for the Me-262 to abort landings and get back into the air to fight off enemy aircraft. When it usually tried, it ended up in disaster. In both situations, the Me-262 was a sitting duck and an easy kill. Another point, the training of the jet pilots. Here we have a novel technology such as jet fighters and pilots receive the minimum of training. That could only lead to disaster. My last point, many of the Me-262 missions were basically suicide missions. For example, the largest single sortie of Me-262’s involved 55 of them versus a fleet of 2,000 US fighter escorts and bombers. 27 of the jets were destroyed. I rest my case. A little long, but people need to here both sides of the lop-sided story.
484 seems like a rather high estimate, (usually P-51s will reach speeds of 450 mph with a cruising speed of 275 mph) but if that’s the top speed of any P-51 in existence then I guess I beleive you. Just one quick question though, was that speed using a War Model P-51 or one built post-WII?
As for the comment made of P-51s vs. Me-262, I thought that many Me-262 pilots were veteran/elite German pilots such as Aldolf Galland in Jagdverband 44. If it was true that most Me-262 pilots were inexperienced then the Germans would have no problems filling the 400 extra Me-262s that no one had time to fly. Of course getting aquatinted with the plane is a different story. Plus another problem was the “cheap” tactic was P-51s shooting up Me-262 as they were trying to land.
Granted that the Allies had such overwhelming air superiority, which meant the destruction of the Luftwaffe wasn’t that lopsided of an affair. If you compare stats in July 1943 the Allies could only muster some 200 escorts for bomber formations vs. the German’s 600 interceptors. Even then the American P-47 was enjoying high kill ratios. As for the P-51 (even with the allies advantages in numbers and traning) it’s still impressive for such a mass-produced plane to post a kill ratio of 19 to 1, the highest of any fighter in history.
“If it was true that most Me-262 pilots were inexperienced then the Germans would have no problems filling the 400 extra Me-262s that no one had time to fly.”
All I have to say to that is fuel. No fuel, no flying. That simple.
No fuel, no flying. No Caucases, no fuel…
No wonder German Infantry about 1944 had a saying about aircraft:
“…if its green, its American. If its tan, its British. If it’s invisible, it’s one of ours…”
Ozone27
Acutally the materials used by the Me-262 was what really plagued the use of the Me-262. The early Me-262s 004A was a fairly sound performer when premium steels were used, and early versions were known to achieve a 200-250 hour service life. However, the diversion of critical materials into U-boat production and other projects late in the war forced Junkers to produce the 004B model with only 1/3 of the high grade steel that had been used in the 004A. It was to be a disastrous concession for the Me 262.
As for fuel consumption the, the Me-262 used diesel fuel which was in less demand than the standard avaition fuel used by the Me-109 and Fw-190.
The me262 used J2 jet fuel… i never heard that it used diesel.
"As for the comment made of P-51s vs. Me-262, I thought that many Me-262 pilots were veteran/elite German pilots such as Aldolf Galland in Jagdverband 44. If it was true that most Me-262 pilots were inexperienced then the Germans would have no problems filling the 400 extra Me-262s that no one had time to fly. Of course getting aquatinted with the plane is a different story. Plus another problem was the “cheap” tactic was P-51s shooting up Me-262 as they were trying to land. "
You see, the first Me262s were given to very experienced pilots, and for a month in the august of 1944, the me262 seemed invincible. there were not enough experience pilots to go around, so both pilots with 15 hours flying experience, and flying aces flew the sturmvogel.
Now an organized German airforce would of been able to cover Me262s for landing and take off, but at the end of the war, that wouldn’t be. the most jet aircraft in the air once during world war two 57 Me262s, facing 1200 fighter escorts (P51s) and 800 bombers (I believe B17s.) The Me262s held their own, as stated above.
Another huge problem was the materials needed for effective jet engines. They had a 10 hour life (Jumo 004b turbo jet), and lacked important alloys capable of withstanding high heats. The excellently designed german engines had no choice but be made entirely out of steel…the engines would distort. Great Britiain siezed all of the available Chromium supplies in Turkey (A very important metal in jet aircraft production.) Adolf Galland said something along the lines with that a perfect jet would have the engines of a globster meteor, and the body of a me 262. The Jumo 004b had more power than the british engine, and with chromium, could of been far more powerful and durable. no country would consider building a jet engine entirely out of steel, and some how the germans pulled it off.
The Me262 was the best, and had a lot more potential. The P51D was different though, it was a war winner, and it was useful in the missions it was put in.
Well when you have a plane like the Me-262 that can travel at least 100 miles faster then the P-51 and was commented for havig superb handling, of course you’re going to have a sure fire winner. However, since the Me-262 was a jet fighter it should be put into a class of its own with the Gloster Meteor, Bell P-59, and Lockheed P-80, which the Me-262 also proved favorable against.
Now this is where the Germans got stupid. Even though they had a dwindling rooster of pilots, they were able to produce more than 1,400 Me 262s, but fewer than 300 ever saw combat. Of course with 1,400 such aircraft, you’re going to have to skimp on the expensive metals meaning those 10-25 hours of jet engine life. Now if the Germans had simply devoted themselves to producing smaller numbers of Me-262s but with a higher percentage of expensive alloys like in the case of the Me-262s 004A you could have versions known to achieve a 200-250 hours of flight time. There were many cases of crashes and total explosions, due to the volatile nature of such engines.
As for the whole diesal fuel powered Me-262s, I check my sources again and this was what it had to say, “…. The Me 262 was argued to be an excellent opportunity to inflict serious damage to the Allied bomber formations as it had already produced superb results against Allied aircraft and it used diesel fuel which was in less demand compared with the high-octane fuel used by propeller driven aircraft.” Now I think this was with the Messerschmitt Me 262A-1a Schwalbe (Swallow), Me 262A-2a Sturmvogel (Stormbird), Me262B-1a types but I’m not sure.
I believe all german jets used J2. I wonder what J1 is!
"Now this is where the Germans got stupid. Even though they had a dwindling rooster of pilots, they were able to produce more than 1,400 Me 262s, but fewer than 300 ever saw combat. Of course with 1,400 such aircraft, you’re going to have to skimp on the expensive metals meaning those 10-25 hours of jet engine life. "
I totally agree. the same with the Me163 komet. in limited numbers, they were excellent. Too many of them was a waste of resources. The Me262 is one of the same.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the Komet mainly of wooden construction? That doesn’t seem like a terrible waste of resources to me. Then again I might be thinking of the Natter.
Yes, the natter (the thing with 20 rockets in its nose right?) the komet would burst in flames if it was made of plywood. it was a flying gas tank.
The C and T Stov was needed for the new submarines and who knows what other weapons (I heard V2 rockets can be powered by one of the two.) The Komet simply killed way more germans, wasted labor, and fuel.
No doubt that the Komet is a great interceptor for those fast-response missions. However, the Komet was limited to the same problem as the Me-262. One a German pilot throttled back and reduced speed on the landing approach, he was committed to a landing. This was the perfect chance for allied fighters to take out the German jets.
The Me163 didn’t have wheels, it used skis. it glided for a landing, and landing itself killed a lot of pilots.
The Me163 as a limited interceptor would of been a huge fear factor.
the Bachem Ba 349 Natter was made of wood, i just double checked. it held 24 rockets.
With the Kimets I always thought German should adopted “Japan’s alternative solution.” Yeah that’s right, filling the Komet high expolsives and getting pilots to ram their Komet’s into Flying Fortress. At least it worked for the Japanese, in the case of the Cherry Blossoms.
The Cherry Blossoms were a bust and highly overrated.
Germany would never do suicide attacks. Hitler didn’t want manned V1s!
They never did have any suicide attacks, but they did develop a manned version of the V1. Called the Fi-103R Riechenburg,it was developed to improve the accuracy of the V-1 by allowing a pilot to guide the missile to its target before bailing out. In reality the pilot had very poor chances for bailing out of the manned missile alive and other alternatives were chosen for further development instead.
