Winning strat for Germany

[Guest]

I have read on this forum in several places the disparaging remarks about Germany’s situation. When Germany goes first, (historical)one needs to ignore Britain (except for Africa)and kick the snot out of Russia. Every time I’ve tried it, I’ve taken Moscow on the first turn. I’ll call it the Karelia Blitz. This can be accomplished by sending all the infantry from Ukraine, Finland, and EE to Karelia, along with the tanks that can reach (W. Europe and S. Europe I think, maybe Germany). Also the fighters that can’t reach Moscow. It is fairly easy and very probable to take Karelia. At that point you blitz tanks from Finland, Ukraine, and EE, (through Karelia) along with the fighters from the same and your bomber to Moscow. Even though your fighters are expensive you should opt to lose them over your last tank (in order to occupy). The resulting loot from this occupation gives you enough to rebuild, and Russia is effectively eliminated. One note though, I usually try to destroy Britain’s navy as much as possible, because mine is so spread out it is destroyed the next turn, so you might as well get use of it while you can.
Therefore, I’ve always seen Germany as having the upper hand, rather than the other way around, even if they follow Russia. What do you guys think, am I playing with amatures, or have you not tried this?

[mini_phreek]

That would be a good stratagy exept for the fact that you can’t do that.
1st you can only blitz if the first tarritory is not ocupiyed.
2nd you have to do all combat movments BEFORE!! you do the combat it’s self. you can’t do combat movment then di combat then do another movment in the same area.

[TG Moses VI]

Well I wouldn’t know since I have never started a game off with Germany going first. Of course if Germany goes first, heck, strike Russia as hard as they can, as much as they can when Russia’s forces a spread out. In theory this would prevent Russia from fortifying Kerilia en mass. But I still don’t know how you could take Moscow on the first turn. You still have to cut through Kerilia or the Caucasus, which takes at least one turn.

[Ozone27]

miniphreak is right: this would be a good strategy if it weren’t roaringly illegal from beginning to end. You must perform all offensive movement on “Combat Move”, conduct combat on the “Combat” portion of your turn–there is NO WAY you can conduct a battle, then move into another enemy-held territory (occupied or not): it’s just not allowed (for good reason).

BTW; somebody correct me if I’m wrong–I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about world history, although dates sometimes confound me: I am sure there are some History majors on this site–but didn’t the first Soviet counteroffensive against the German invasion (a counteroffensive which failed) take place in Spring 1942? If this is the case (and I think it is), then historically-speaking the correct scenario in A & A should be the normal rules–USSR goes 1st, unrestricted. This is not an attempt to disparage Russia Restricted, just a thought…

Regardless USSR moves 1st, Restricted or not…again this is a basic rule (like the sequence of events in a turn) that should not be tampered with if you are playing strict A & A…

Ozone27

[TG Moses VI]

Actually the Russian Counteroffensive didn’t begin (Stalingrad and all) until November 1942. So a German first turn is possible, but the first turn is so one-sided that the Axis will win almost every time.

[Ozone27]

No, I was talking about the 1st (stalled) Soviet offensive designed to push the Germans out of the Crimea and break the siege of Leningrad. I’m pretty sure it was Spring 1942. After disposing of this threat, the Germans advanced all the way to the Caucasus oil fields before being decisively defeated at Stalingrad. I’m pretty sure the Soviets launched a major offensive 1st after the winter of 41-42, setting the Germans back several months. Someone correct me if I’m mistaken…

Ozone27

[TG Moses VI]

Actually, there was a major German offensive in the Winter of 1941, so you might be right. But I’m not sure how long it lasted onto the Spring and the German offensive in Crimea began in May. And when exactly in “Spring” does A&A start in?

[Guest]

Okay, sorry guys. I must be really amature! It seemed cool to me anyway! The sheer mass of forces that Germany can pile into Karelia would be formidable though, and Russia doesn’t have much of an economy to couner attack. What do you think? I just find it ludicrous to sit cowering in Berlin, when you can make an attack that doesn’t involve trtansports!

[TG Moses VI]

Russia may look like it has a small economy now at 24 IPCs but within the next two turns (with Russia unrestricted) I fully expect it to be at 24+5 (Ukraine, Norway) = 31 IPCs. This can easily match Germany if the player hasn’t gone all out in Africa. That’s why Germany has to wear down the Russian player (hit and run) and wait until Japan can stack striking at Russian territories.

[mini_phreek]

the first russian victory of the war was in winter 1941 when germany falied to take moscow becase all there panzers froze up and russian T-34s don’t.

[Guest]

nevermind

[Guest]

Aside from the history lesson (Because i’m dumb and don’t know any of the facts :smile:

[Guest]

I disagree about not being able to take Karelia. It is possible even with the amount of forces I allocated in the first strategy, much less if you did it legally and sent more forces in there! I have done it a million times! It seems to me that you all need to get a little more agressive, and use what you’ve got!

[Guest]

Ok lets say russia takes finland (which a lot of people think is a bad idea. They then buy 8 men for karelia plus 4 from russia plus 1 or 2 from karelia. add 2 fighters and you’ve got a very sizable force. I’m not saying that germany CAN’t take karelia T1 but I think it is a very large gamble becuase they will have to throw everything that they’ve got against it. And when you do that, if you lose, the game is already over.

[TG Moses VI]

I wouldn’t be sure that you would lose by trying to take Kerilia on T1 but you’re making a terribly big risk. But if Germany goes first, it can easily take Kerilia. Look at the odds: 9 inf. and 9 ARM vs. 3 inf., 1 ARM, 1 ftr.

Personally I like Russia restricted. This represents that the Russians have just exhausted their counter offensive in Spring 1942 and are getting ready for the next German offensive in May.

[Ozone27]

It is possible to take Karelia T1, under a wide variety of possible USSR 1st moves. But the problem is that if the USSR player has had an ounce of sense he has heavily built up Karelia AND another adjacent space (usually Caucases and/or Russia–or better, both). In this case you will be so weakened by the attack on Karelia that EVEN IF YOU WIN, you will be powerfully counterrattacked from one or more territories and will have your armor destroyed. Some Germany players counter this by building ALL (or virtually all) ARM the 1st turn, in order to launch a second attack T2, but no matter what you do, you are STILL GAMBLING that you will score better than the Soviets in dice rolls–a LOT better.

Take my advice–if the USSR builds up heavily in INF T1 try attacking Karelia (if you feel you must) and retreating (into Eastern Europe)when you start losing Armor. If you build INF and maintain most of your ARM (augmenting with some new builds) you will have a better effect in the LONG RUN. You hafta make a good showing in Africa and maintain your FTR/BMR force as a “force-in-being”. The ECONOMIC rather than the strictly MILITARY game is the consistent winner. Simple as that…

Ozone27

P.S.: To say the Germans lost the war in Russia because “their tanks froze” is just completely simplistic. The Germans lost largely (and this too is somewhat of a simplification) because they hoped for (and expected–some of them) a short war–one that wouldn’t last until the winter. They were perfectly well-prepared for a short war of annihilation like in France and Poland, and were not expecting–for instance–entire surrounded Soviet armies to keep on fighting practically to the last man…

You sell the Soviets far too short to suggest that “technology” (that is, tanks that can run in sub-zero temperatures) destroyed the German Army. The people of Russia themselves did…

Just my 2 cents…

[Usul513]

Historically, the allies won

[Guest]

I agree with that “people of Russia” thing. Have you seen “enemy at the gates”? Perfect visual example. A massive horde of people who die is very hard to beat. If the enmey has more people than you have bullets, who’s gonna win?

[mini_phreek]

when i say the russians won becase the german tanks froze up. i em not talking about the entire war, i em talking about Germany’s faluire to take moscow in the winter of 1941. it was the winter that gave the Russians the atvantige and opertunity to lanch the counter attack and hold off the Germans. had it been good weather and Germans used there full armoered strangth we might all be speaking German right now.

[TG Moses VI]

I think that the comment that we would all be speaking right now is a bit of an overstatement. UK and USA could still probably beat the Germans (though at much higher time and loses) and we’re assuming that Germany could somehow build an Invasion fleet large enough to reach N. American shores.

As for the winter, it ruined the German offensive war machine. But the fall probably did just as much damage. Imagine have to move all your men, equipment, and vehicles knee deep in mud.