How do you go about keeping the German Med Fleet alive?

[arkey81]

In my '42 edition, Germany seems to have more options available, all over the place.  But I don’t get to play that one very often.  Most of my games these days are on gamesbyemail, playing the “old school” A&A.  Germany needs the money from Africa to contend with the Allies until the cavalry (Japan) arrives, but the Med fleet seems to be vulnerable to a persistant UK player, unless you want to go sinking more money than you can afford into it.  In my last 10 or so games, as the UK, I usually find a way to sink that fleet early enough that Germany’s money is always crippled.  As Germany, I seem to either lose the fleet or spend too much money on it, which leaves me crippled in Europe.

I was just wondering what some of you do as Germany to keep the fleet intact without buying more than a transport the first turn or two (in order to keep chugging out the infantry).  I can’t seem to spare more than one plane to go after the sub in the Eastern Med on the first turn, and if it misses, then the sub runs away.  So the next turn, the UK can send a bomber and the sub, which have a good chance of sinking both transports in the Central Med before the battleship finishes them off.  I can build more transports then, but I’m spending a lot of money, and the transports aren’t getting anything over to Africa in the meantime.  Plus, the UK player can be building another bomber, moving fighters, or other means to finish the job.  Once the fleet is gone, it’s hard for Japan to grow fast enough to make up for the UK having money.

[221B Baker Street]

Against a persistent attack by the allies, IMHO you can’t keep the Med Fleet intact.  At least not without spending so much that the Russians become a really big problem.

What I try to do in non-bid games is take as much in Africa as I can; the N-S Egypt to S. Africa corridor is the primary IPC’s in Africa.  Its a good thing if you win in Egypt and are able to take this part of Africa, particularly as it takes the allies a few turns (usually including poorly placed transports) to get Africa back.  Then I try to hold as much of it as I can for as long as I can, which might not be that long.  If I am lucky, I might be able to retreat a tank into Asia and join up with Japan.

I don’t often play bid games, but if bids are used, some people will go heavy in Africa, intending to hold it by the extra units placed at the start of the game.  But here too, the German Med Fleet is usually quickly sunk.

Not that the sinking of the Med Fleet is all that great of a loss.  Unless the Axis have a high bid Germany cannot afford to send much to Africa anyway because Germany must defend itself from the allies on many fronts particularly in E. Europe which means most of the purchases should be defensive inf placed in Germany, W. Europe, E. Europe and perhaps even S. Europe.  And aside from placing a few troops in Africa, there isn’t all the much that can be done with the Med Fleet that couldn’t be done by Japan (which starts out with a much better Navy).

[shaper]

There is only one way to save the fleet.  
Talk your opponent out of killing it.

This plan involves the following elements (as modified)
It can work.  Maybe.

1. Kill North Sea fleet
2. Kill British Bomber and potentially fighter(s) and maybe England
3. All or mostly fleet build
4. Blocking all potential allied landing points (gibralter and africa)
5. Kill the British Battleship, if you are feeling super lucky get the sub and the Battleship

Its pretty sketchy.  I think it can be done with the mid-atlantic submarine assisting in the Med without changing the odds too much.  If it doesn’t work, Germany probably dies quick.  If it does work, somewhat, Germany may well die anyhow.   Africa however, is potentially well in the German clutches in a round or two.

[EDIT]

Pretty much this becomes operation Sea Lion if you send a loaded transport along to assist in taking down the British airforce, which on review seems to be the best way to go about this.

By Going to sealion with 2 infantry and using 3 fighters in north sea, you have the side benefit of a 10-15% of instantly capturing England.  See below for rough odds to win both battles completely and taking England on R1. The naval win does increase your chances of damaging the British airpower, in particular the bomber.  You can use less fighters in the north sea if you want to take chances and go for the med submarine.

The real goal of the sealion attack, here, is to kill the bomber rather than take England.

The Basic Plan
i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab98/FutureTechnology/games/sealion.jpg
The image shows a badly executed sealion approach that has only an 11% chance to win the sea battle (at best)
Maximizes the Battleship kill chance and shuts off access from Gibralter and takes the risk of leaving an intact sub,
forcing Germany to build 2 ships and hope for the best.  Africa is a tank sweep with infantry covering the blitz route and the third bomber landing zone

You could bring more fighters into the North Sea if you were serious about taking down England and wanted to maximize your chance at making a landing, since you are halfway there already.  The real goal is to kill the bomber along with the fleet.

Naval battle air force impact: 3 ftr=87% 2 Ftr = 56%, 1 Ftr=11%, assume lower actual numbers because you want the transport to stay alive.

Actually taking England by happy coincidence using sealion with all ships in play (russia restricted, soviets moving to north sea) (lower as transport must survive the sea battle, reducing all odds by whatever percentage that adjusts to)
3 fighter 15%
2 fighter 10%
1 fighter  6%
Chances of getting the bomber are pretty high, I think it will tend to die early when England is in a live or die situation and casualty selection could decide the game.
[/END EDIT]

[[i]originally wrote this with thnking Germans had 3 fighters that could get in, with two its only 1% win chance if the amphibious landing isn’t attempted. Assume Germans have an extra fighter to work with outside of England, adjust accordingly]

Three Two fighters and one bomber can attack Brittain in round one.  7% 1% chance of success if you get by the Anti-aircraft guns.  Partial victory not even likely.

If the battle gets close the brits will usually give up the bomber, because they will need the fighters to defend with, somewhat better % of that happening. This can buy you some time and you might be able to withdraw your fighters for next round, particularly if you’re shutting down Gibralter.

That leaves you a battleship and two three planes to attack the British atlantic fleet with. Your sub is probably blocking the atlantic ocean (unless you have a plausible north sea attack).    If you go to the western med with ships you need both Gibralter and Western Africa via French Equitorial Africa to prevent the US bomber and/or surviving british fighters from coming in on the first round.

CONSIDERATIONS:

MED
If your boats go towards the canal to deal with the sub you need to get lucky and take both sides of the canal.  This prevents the fighter in India or the Russian fighters from having a response.   An advantage of taking the canal side is that it makes a longer trip for the allied fleet and allows you to use blockers if you don’t have enough power to take it on directly.  It also keeps the british transport from getting in as a casualty absorber, as well as discouraging the Allies from landing the Indian troops in Africa

If you want to improve the odds of the sub not being able to submerge, you’ll probably have to commit your battleship and a fighter to take it out.

BRITISH FLEET
Stopping the British fleet from responding.  
Your sub will have to stay in the atlantic to block.  Stands 1/3 chance of diving assuming the US tries to clear the shipping lane.

If the Soviets haven’t reinforced the navy in the north Sea, you might be able to send the baltic sea transport and the other two fighters into the North Sea.   Sending fighters precludes their use in the Med, so you will have to slug it out ship to ship.

The sub will probably have to be used to take down the atlantic battleship if you go that route not very easy, you’ll need a lucky torpedo if it goes in alone, if you send the transport you get two or three shots.  Since all of your fighters are committed the battleship will have to hunt the submarines.   Any attempt to do all of things is going to spread you very thin and increases the already significant risk you are taking.

If the soviets do reinforce the North Sea you have around a 25% good chance of winning a direct attack if you send everything that can reach (sub(s), transport, last 23 fighters), better off simply blocking unless you want to go full on kamikaze longshot.

Going after this target means that you will have to leave the battleship or the sub alive in the Med, which means you will need to build at least sub+trans or two transports to stand a chance against the sub. (up to 4 small ships max)  The upside is it makes your fleet stronger, the downside is that they could still die and you have less to work with on the continent.  That and the fact that you will probably get smoked in the North sea by airpower next round.

IMPACTS AND FOLLOW UPS
If this works, you can now build anything you want in the Med that turn and its completely safe.
You have possibly discouraged the Allies with contesting your build, particularly if you’ve been lucky enough to trash the British airforce.   On R2 and possibly R3 you can consolidate your fleet with a new build, although your probably busy with the Soviets by then.

If you get a partial success, you may be able to hold out.  If you are insanely aggressive and lucky and manage to kill the british navy at the same time and disable the bulk of the allied airforce, or if the allies stay out of reach… you might get immunity in round 3 as well.  If you take England, the allies are going to have a hard time.

If the allies have taken this as some form of determined personal mission to destroy your fleet they could sail to the atlantic and redeploy air power. (that won’t work if you managed to get a carrier built in R1 and have enough planes left to protect it.  If you’re in the Western Med, and your sub can’t stop them the fleet can hit you directly.  The russian sub could also be in striking range.

If you’ve gone this far and you have any airpower left, you can attack any pursuing fleets.   If not, they may very likely elect to leave your fleet alone for a while and concentrate on other plans.

IF you really want to push things, and can clear the path for it, Germany could target India in R2 with the longterm intent of building new naval forces there.  You may need help from Japan to clear India for you.  Japan has to kill the british fighter to even consider this, unless you want to relocate  your entire Navy to the Indian ocean.  It would be helpful if the British were really foolish and decided to go ahead with a factory in India type plan, but I don’t think that’s likely.  You’d probably have to build your own.

Germany is going to be playing catchup after this, even with the big IPC swing that will be coming your way fairly soon, if you can afford the ground troops needed to collect it.

The luftwaffe is pretty much trashed, ships are being built at the expense of defenses and the main British fleet is potentially being rebuilt.  The chances of actually pulling this off successfully are pretty low and the cost of failure is high.

You are going to have to be lucky with your attack on the UK, need hot dice.  You still have to win the ship battles, although you have the advantage there.   To survive someone that is deadset on knocking out that fleet you may have to pour more resources into ships on R2 to counter there builds/adjusted deployments.

For insurance purposes you probably want to try and take out both Sinkiang and China in R1.   Thats two less aircraft that could eventually engage your ships.

WARNING
I’ve never actually tried this with the goal of saving the fleet, but if I felt that it was imperitive to take Africa… or got obsessed with building a German Navy… was really tired of seeing my atlantic fleet bombed out and wanted revenge… or had a US player that liked to fight in the Pacific… or just wanted to see what happened…  … well maybe.

I’d also probably have to feel that  I could handle the other players invasion skills without an airforce.  Might be a fun gamble against a weak player to increase the challenge level…    I doubt its something you can build a solid strategy around, but I’ve never explored it.  I’m pretty sure that Germany would be unable to hold Europe.   I also don’t know what the critical mass is of damage that you would have to inflict to keep the Allies at bay.

If you go all out on this program and pull a super houdini with the dice you could end up with control of the seas, at least for  long enough and maybe even grab England.  I wouldn’t count on it or bet on it.   Probably the best that can be hoped for is control of the Atlantic, and even that won’t be easy.

If you try this, good luck.  You’ll probably need it.

Note:  If its not a russia restricted game, your assets may be different and you may have to make some modifications, especially if the soviets attacked your sub and have theirs parked in that zone.

If you do the sealion thing to damage the air force, which makes more sense now that I’ve recounted the fighters; the british are probably building mainland defenses on their first buy, and/or the Americans are moving into the West Atlantic so you can’t try again on R2 (if you did Gibralter/Africa). The allies will probably assume that your goal was to take England and react accordingly.

Season accordign to tastes.

---

What successful results may look like… no idea about the end results.

Modified Plan after a mostly successful mission and generally poor unit placement… (post build screenshot)  Units cut and pasted so they can actually be seen.

i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab98/FutureTechnology/games/sealion2.jpg

Germany had gotten all Navy happy and decided to spread them out after the build.  Brittain still has two fighters, but the bomber is gone, all landing points are insulated and more naval forces placed to either facilitate a credible R2 sealion threat and to simply create more targets.   The sub is alive, and anything in the north sea will get trashed as allies have 1 bomber, 4 fighters.  SE ships are favored to win against the allied submarine.

Germany probably spent too much on its navy and didn’t place them particularly well. They could have placed entirely in the med (32pts navy) where they are completely safe for a while… a carrier could have time to get jets loaded, although at the expense of even more continental defense.

alternately an aggressive force could be placed in the baltic although it would probably sink.  Land placements weren’t really thought about both fighters should probably be in WE with more land troops.

Fending of the Soviets is going to be very challenging for Germany and every unit siphoned off the mainland is trouble.

Brittain will have to build at least a couple of infantry unless the US sacrifices their transport to block a potential invasion.  If the ships were placed in a way that allowed them to consolidate (MED), they’d be tough to take down and only the North sea transport would be likely to die.

[Marked]

1.  Keep BB & trans in CMED.  That will group your three ships together (buy one trans).  No attack on Egy 'til G2 (shuttle two Inf during NCM to Lib G1).  Let the UK Bmb come solo if he dares.

2.  Attack UK BB w/ Sub & Fig; attack UK Sub w/ Bmb.  This scenario is one hit BB’s.  The Bmb has better “to hit” than Fig vs Sub.  Your looking for one round battles here, if you up air power in either attack it is at the expense of your attack on UK fleet in NOR.

3.  Ignore ships in LAB & ECO, you can’t spread your air that thin.

4.  Carry out NOR attack vs UK(+) fleet, use BAL fleet (if any) & all remaining air.  Obviously whether your using RR or not will impact this.  I don’t think you can ignore UK fleet G1, the question is how much air do you divert to MED attacks and still clear NOR too.

[shaper]

Thats a far saner plan.

Either way, you will probably be outbuilt in the fleet department and Germany can’t really afford to direct much effort towards a ship building plan unless the Allies are more interested in taking down Japan.  The Soviets can usually capitalize on the fewer land units.

Since the allies are “determined” to knock out your fleet, they can if they desire.  If they have higher priorities, you might be able to maintain a fleet for a while, but the choice is pretty much up to the allies.  Both the US/UK have the luxury of building a naval campaign and combined have far more IPCs to work with than Germany, which almost always has to buy ground troops.

Knocking out the UK in round 1, gives the Germans enough to work with to do this, or anything else they want to.  Unfortunately, any attempt to do is such a longshot that its not worth doing even if the Soviets manage to get their fleet scuttled or leave it out of play.  18% is the best odds that the axis have in round 1.  If round 2 opens up a better opportunity then its Germany’s lucky day.

221B Baker street is correct, as far as I can tell.  In a practical sense, the Allies should have Naval superiority in the Atlantic if they want it and if determined can take out the med fleet.  There’s nothing Germany can really do about it.  At least nothing that won’t make Europe very hard to hold.

Huddling the ships and buying a transport in the Med as you suggested and transferring to Libya means that you have to use air to get the sub and the battleship (41%) AND (67%), both which have to succeed (only 27% chance).  Either of these can support a  UK bomber run.  Bomber+Sub will usually get one transport, and with Bomber+Battleship they are 50/50 of taking out everything and will usually kill both transports.  In round 2 they will probably try and finish the job.  The axis have a chance doing this, but its not very good.  A two transport or (sub+trans) buy increases the odds but is usually two expensive to do.

The upside of your plan is if the axis are somewhat lucky they can get three transport moves in two rounds.

Alternately
A fleet build in the Med, killing the North sea fleet, killing the sub (50-75%), knocking out the battleship  and limiting landing access by taking Gibralter and the two western African Assets can buy some time and limit the allies to just the bomber in the first round, but also costs Germany the ability to do a first round landing in Africa.  Additionally the axis have to get lucky in Libya’s one infantry man (10%/48% if they just send a tank)  or the American bomber can land there as well (and probably get torched next round anyhow).  If the transport is tied up in the first round taking Gibralter the first extra transport gives them zero units on R1/ and 4 on R2.

Either way,
The allies can stage a followup attack for round 2 or 3, even if either of the axis keeps their fleet intact, although they may choose not to.

Even if the Germans get some transport capability for a while, they still have to divert units from Europe, which makes Europe harder to hold.  A 16 point fleet buy and pulling that many land troops from Europe is costly and sets the axis for a hard fight in Europe although it probably secures Africa and makes the fleet more likely to survive.

If the Axis want Africa, they are usually better off going directly after the forces there and sending some air power to assist whatever units they can land on round 1 (either assisting in egypt, or providing security for an airbase in Libya).  This creates a tradeoff in other areas, but is generally more cost effective and has a higher success chance.  Air units can return to Europe relatively easily once the main opposition in Africa taken down.

[Marked]

The MED fleet’s primary function is to get forces to Africa.  This allows Germany to cash in higher and build forces; also to potentially cause UK/US to divert forces from Fin/WE, in order to buy Japan time in their Asian conquest & push to Moscow.

The fleet will not likely survive long in any event.  Venturing west from the MED will be suicidal most often.  After Africa, it has limited use.  It can support an all out assault on Cau, et al, with naval bombardment and to add Inf from SE/EE?! that otherwise would not reach.

A mad dash to Brazil or headlong excursion to UK/North/Central American waters to disrupt shuck-shuck momentarily, by striking at a weakness, are other last ditch options.  Otherwise it can sit in WMED trying to lure naval forces out of position or just guard the Ger southern flank.

It could escape east via the Suez Canal, but I’m not sure what the benefit would be unless UK/US are some how challenging Japan for control of the Pacific.

[221B Baker Street]

@Marked:

The MED fleet’s primary function is to get forces to Africa.  This allows Germany to cash in higher and build forces; also to potentially cause UK/US to divert forces from Fin/WE, in order to buy Japan time in their Asian conquest & push to Moscow.

Yes.  Of course, Germany must decide how much to send to Africa.  It must be enough to take and hold as much of it as possible, but not so much that Germany starts having trouble in Europe due to lack of forces.  As the allies, I might let Germany have Africa if I can take and hold a big part of Europe (like WE) early…

The fleet will not likely survive long in any event.  Venturing west from the MED will be suicidal most often.  After Africa, it has limited use.  It can support an all out assault on Cau, et al, with naval bombardment and to add Inf from SE/EE?! that otherwise would not reach.

A mad dash to Brazil or headlong excursion to UK/North/Central American waters to disrupt shuck-shuck momentarily, by striking at a weakness, are other last ditch options.  Otherwise it can sit in WMED trying to lure naval forces out of position or just guard the Ger southern flank.

It could escape east via the Suez Canal, but I’m not sure what the benefit would be unless UK/US are some how challenging Japan for control of the Pacific.

Well, there is always the option of taking forces to Madagascar (1 ipc) and/or S. Africa, then head off to Brazil from there (or maybe NZ/Aus if Japan isn’t interested) to pick up a few extra ipcs…though if the Allies decide to let the German navy survive, keeping the option to send more troops to Africa and/or placing troops in Caucasus might be a better option.

Of course, you can also just let/make the Allies take the fleet.  Maybe you can force them to lose a couple of aircraft which they won’t then be able to use against you in Europe.

[shaper]

Another option

Crush the Atlantic fleet and Egypt with airpower and your libyan troops.  Bomb out the US transport and blockade the Atlantic.

Build a second transport (optional) to expedite troop movements, but mostly to insulate your fleet.  Take out Egypt while you’re at it.  Shuttle a tank to speed up the conquest of the remaining African continent and minimize loss of defensive units in the Euro zone.  Leave an infantry man in Libya to reinforce the landing zone so any planes that can’t make the return trip this turn aren’t tempting targets.

Brittain will get a jumpstart on its campaign (since you’ve ignored their North Sea fleet) against Europe because they can transport a bit faster into that zone.  The US could bomb your blockade, but the sub has a chance of submerging, and England will probably take the opportunity to start shoveling troops into the main battle zone.  If the allies pursue with the assistance of their navy they are giving up position although they could land in Algeria (at the expense of an initial Europe onslaught).  If the allies go this route, the Germans have more time to build defenses/counter attack ability.

Even if England commits ground troops from India you will probably get Africa under German boots rather quickly.

The initial IPC advantage of Brittain will swing to Germany pretty quickly, which means less incoming British units later and more German defenders.

If you go this route you are conceding the North Sea early and the Allies won’t have to spend time/money replacing ships.  The upside is you probably aren’t losing much  airpower and Brittish builds will slow rapidly,  leaving America to do much of the heavy lifting.    You won’t need to hold the seazone for long as your troop advantage in the first round or two, and somewhat stronger fleet will probably deter a quick allied landing of reinforcements.  Allies may have other priortities anyhow.  If your fleet survives the Allies are more likely to go for a Finland landing than WE, which while effective at reinforcing the Soviets, also takes longer.  More net IPCs for Germany.

The IPCs are all coming from the UK, which not only means you are gaining a fair number of IPCs, Brittain is losing them at the same time.   This creates a huge swing.  (If you are +9 IPCs in africa thats essentially a six infantry man swing in the overall situation)  Your airforce will mostly land in German territory, and any that have to land in Africa can get back the next turn unless you leave one behind to expedite the mopup of Africa.  You also have the option of driving a tank to Syria on R2, creating an incentive for the Soviets to divert troops from the front lines.  If its ignored it can take advantage of potential openings or move to assist the Japanese.  Africa and Syria will probably be in complete control by round 3, and mostly controlled in round 2.  Even in round one, you are +3 to +4, depending on how you execute the attack. (so you’ve essentially recovered a 2 infantry man transport deficit).  At the end of round 2 you should have everything but South Africa.  Obviously Madagascar is a different animal, but isn’t key to the regions control anyhow.

The later round reinforcements can make a big difference on the Euro front and those IPCs will come faster than they usually do.  With more surviving land Units in Africa you should have it secured faster and locked up more decisively than a typical North Sea opening will do.

Unless the English commit India its going to very quick to eradicate their presence in Africa. If they do commit the Indian Army and airforce you will be tied up a bit longer, but the Japanese will move faster and with lest resistance.
Since Egypt and possibly Syria have fallen in round 1 they may consider this.   You may or may not be able to hold an aircraft back to assist with taking the fresh troops out, but they are going to have a tough time if your tanks are on the ground, even more so since you will have a fighter and a bomber parked in Libya, if you can justify leaving them in the African region.  Depending on the location of the landing, your bomber may be able to make it back to Europe anyhow.

The real trick to manage is holding back the initial rush of Allied forces that may try and capitalize on your slightly reduced manpower and their initial troop burst in the second round.  Germany will probably want a defensive pure infantry buy on R1.  The Russians may try to force the issue now that they are getting more defensive replacements.

Transport may or may not be desired, depending on what the ultimate goal really is.

After the initial assault, your fleet won’t matter too much anyhow, and it can either send a couple of infantry men (assuming your transport survives), simply present a counterthreat to allied shipping or presumably assist in the Pacific if needed due to game developments.

The allies can send their bombers, but they aren’t going to be able to land safely.

This can also work well with a heavy Pearl Harbor assault complete with a loaded landing craft (taking hawaii is optional, but you will want to keep the transport alive if at all feasible).   The allies will probably not be able to escape ships from the Pac and may choose to invest assets (ships and airpower) or even buys in that Theater to try and quickly scuttle the Japanese fleet, since there is not much chance of an unassisted escape.  If they ignore the fleet then they have to be prepared for a round 2 landing, which will slow them down slightly.

If you get a fast jump on Africa, the allies may choose to ignore the fleet.  The canal will fall in round 1/2, potentially opening up three additional points in India (if desired), which the Germans need more than the Japanese do.  The Japanese can still do the grunt work of clearing out any stragglers there, if they do a full/primarily air attack.  This works better with a light pearl harbor strategy (which I usually prefer) as Japan can’t be everywhere and Asia offers significantly more in the way of tangible gains.  They are more likely to be in a position to clear out India, if this is your goal.  Bonus points if Japan decides to hunt down the Indian Sea transport.  The Allies may choose to land reinforcements in Africa if you remove the threat of the fleet entirely however.

Its a method.  It has drawbacks and advantages like most do.  It does however, almost always result in complete and early domination of Africa… for a price.

[221B Baker Street]

@shaper:

Another option

Crush the Atlantic fleet and Egypt with airpower and your libyan troops.  Bomb out the US transport and blockade the Atlantic.
…

An Atlantic blockade is NOT going to happen against experienced players.  Even with a fighter/bomber rich initial purchase (like we are discussing) that might gift EE to Russia, the Atlantic belongs to the Allies and the Axis cannot and should not do anything about it.

Without going into great detail as to why, consider that a transport costs 8 ipcs while fighters cost 12.  These are the pieces that will get traded after round 1/2 (maybe round 3 if a German sub survived into round two) since everything German will be sunk by then.  The UK buys a CV and transports in UK2 (assuming they saved their money in UK1 due to the heavy Axis airforce), the US lands two fighters on it and moves transports purchased in US1 to the North Sea.  So on G3 there are a CV, two fighters, several transports and possibly a sub to defend against fighters/bombers only.  By the end of round three at the very latest, the allies have much more than the axis can possibly counter at a reasonable cost.

Why is the Axis cost so high?  Because Germany must defend against Russia and prepare for large numbers of Allied troops in EE (via Canada/UK to Norway, then Karelia).  Even without the US/UK contributions, Russia can deliver plenty to EE until Japan soaks up Asia.  Germany must prepare to defend or retreat from Africa (as the allies can dump a large number of troops whenever they feel like it - perhaps round 4 or 5).    Germany must have a defensive force sufficient to hold WE (keeping in mind the possibility of the allies taking spain, then WE on the following turn).  Germany must be ready to defend SE in the event the large numbers of troops in Africa (or Spain) then exit Africa on the same transports for SE.   Must above all else (except maybe taking Moscow with a combined German/Japan lurch as long as Japan gets the territory and can hold it) also keep enough in Germany proper to prevent a successful amphibious assault there.  Not only must these defensive forces defend, they must also do so cheaply; I’d happily strafe EE and trade Russian tanks (5 ipcs) for German fighters (12 ipcs).  Fighter are great at defense, but there must be sufficient infantry that losses for Germany is affordable and that means infantry.

It is also highly desirable that Germany keep enough forces on EE to present a credible offensive threat (not just defensive capability) so that significant numbers of allied troops stay there.  This allows Japan to take most of Russia and effectively puts the allies in the dilemma of how much to send to Karelia and how much to send to Moscow/Novo(?).  This allows the axis to approach an economic victory both by holding the rich European territories (3 ipcs each) and allowing Japan time to conquer far away places. A strong presence in EE by the Germans might also cause the allies to delay or ignore German conquered territories in Africa, helping the economics for the axis (and possible economic victory).

This is quite challenging by round 7 or 8 and to be successful at all this (and a chance for the axis to win the game by Japan/Germany taking Russia, or an economic victory) Germany simply cannot afford to spend money attacking the superior allied fleet.  Some would argue that Germany cannot afford even to send troops to Africa after round 1 or 2 (and I tend to agree).  The fighter heavy initial purchase of this thread is an interesting twist to the initial game, but it seems to me the end result is the same with Germany in trouble (and buying only cheap inf for defense) in the mid to late game…if not sooner…unless the allies respond poorly.

How about the option to bring in Japanese support?  The Japanese navy cannot get there for several turns more and even so, the US Pacific battleship will get there first, along with numerous other transports and whatever else the allies wish to buy as they will see this coming for a very long time.  Also, the Japanese fighters do not have the range to reach Europe and still provide the offense the Japanese need to take Asia (they might not even have the range to reach Europe at all).  Its simply not worth it for Japan to bring fighters/bombers to Europe unless and until Japan is in Novo pressing hard on Moscow (the end game).  Long -range fighters change this equation, but that means the Axis is rolling for tech, an altogether different strategy/gambit for them to play.

[shaper]

The fighter heavy initial purchase of this thread is an interesting twist to the initial game

Think you’re mixing threads.

No fighter heavy purchase here, no fighters purchased at all.  Second transport isn’t really necessary, except to increase the cost of taking out the Atlantic fleet when/if the allies go after it, and to beef up any attempt to remove a few Allied transports from the Atlantic.

Atlantic blockade is just on turn one, and minimal with the sub, to as a contingency opportunity to potentially prevent the allies from diverting ships to the med fleet on R2.  The US is then committing its bomber to that attack, if they want to take a swing at the submarine.

The Med fleet if anything is a deterrent to allies breaking off a transport and landing in Africa on the next turn
Infantry aren’t likely being transported past round 2, if any can afford to be moved at that point.

It will be a while before the Allies can divert troops to Africa, unless they make a special effort in that regard.
If they wait until turn 6, thats Axis +41/Allies -41 (roughly).  Thats a swing of around 26 infantry on the European continent over that timeframe.  Obviously somewhat variable.  The swing is not as big if the Axis aren’t trading as much land on the Soviet border.

IF Japanese is coming inland hard, especially on the southern route, they may have a carrier (potentially with fighters) and a transport in the region relatively quickly.  Very much depends on US tactics and Allied aircraft activity, as well as the initial Pearl Harbor decision.  Potentially landing reinforcements, of limited number on turn 2, although circumstances and priorities may vary.

I never suggested that concentrating on Africa was a particularly strong strategy, just a way that has a high probability of securing Africa for the Axis in the early game, and generally very quickly.  I am presuming that the intent of keeping the fleet alive is to get the IPCs from Africa.  Any fleet survival from that point is just a bonus, more likely it will be an elimination of some Allied air assets that could otherwise be protecting Karalia or wreaking havoc elsewhere.

Eastern Europe can be reinforced with fighters in the second round, barring a full English counter attack from India.  In the first round they will have to make do with perhaps 2-3  fighters unless only one is used in Africa, or fighters are desired elsewhere.  Obviously any casualties from the naval attack, won’t be returning to base.

[221B Baker Street]

@shaper:

The fighter heavy initial purchase of this thread is an interesting twist to the initial game

Think you’re mixing threads.

No fighter heavy purchase here, no fighters purchased at all.  Second transport isn’t really necessary, except to increase the cost of taking out the Atlantic fleet when/if the allies go after it, and to beef up any attempt to remove a few Allied transports from the Atlantic.

Atlantic blockade is just on turn one, and minimal with the sub, to as a contingency opportunity to potentially prevent the allies from diverting ships to the med fleet on R2.  The US is then committing its bomber to that attack, if they want to take a swing at the submarine.

The Med fleet if anything is a deterrent to allies breaking off a transport and landing in Africa on the next turn
Infantry aren’t likely being transported past round 2, if any can afford to be moved at that point.

It will be a while before the Allies can divert troops to Africa, unless they make a special effort in that regard.
If they wait until turn 6, thats Axis +41/Allies -41 (roughly).  Thats a swing of around 26 infantry on the European continent over that timeframe.  Obviously somewhat variable.  The swing is not as big if the Axis aren’t trading as much land on the Soviet border.

IF Japanese is coming inland hard, especially on the southern route, they may have a carrier (potentially with fighters) and a transport in the region relatively quickly.  Very much depends on US tactics and Allied aircraft activity, as well as the initial Pearl Harbor decision.  Potentially landing reinforcements, of limited number on turn 2, although circumstances and priorities may vary.

I never suggested that concentrating on Africa was a particularly strong strategy, just a way that has a high probability of securing Africa for the Axis in the early game, and generally very quickly.   I am presuming that the intent of keeping the fleet alive is to get the IPCs from Africa.  Any fleet survival from that point is just a bonus, more likely it will be an elimination of some Allied air assets that could otherwise be protecting Karalia or wreaking havoc elsewhere.

Eastern Europe can be reinforced with fighters in the second round, barring a full English counter attack from India.  In the first round they will have to make do with perhaps 2-3  fighters unless only one is used in Africa, or fighters are desired elsewhere.  Obviously any casualties from the naval attack, won’t be returning to base.

Sorry for my delayed response, been quite busy lately.

I did confuse the threads a bit …but in either event the German blockade of the atlantic can only happen for one, maybe two turns.

In most games, the UK (and USSR) does get small before the tide turns but it doesn’t usually matter as the US is essentially untouched the entire game.  Then the allies are able to provide enough to push the Japanese back in Asia (go from the USA/UK to Moscow/Novo to counter Japan at Novo) and to push Germany back in EE (or sometimes pressure Germany in WE/Spain depending on how weak Germany decides to leave this).

The German fleet in the Med is usually sunk, but I don’t think it matters much anyway.  Germany cannot afford to send much there or she becomes too weak to hold EE.  And whatever Germany choses to send, the allies can send much more.  Japan cannot afford to go there (she should be sending everything towards Russia) either.

Africa can only be held by Germany, IMO, if Germany takes it early and the allies are forced to send everything they have to hold Karelia and Moscow…which are obviously more important.

[Guest]

sid guttridge wrote:Hi Phylo,

Yes. Finland was not part of the Percentages Agreement. This easy to check.

I have never heard that Helsinki and Vienna were ever considered together. Their situations were very different. Berlin and Vienna, yes. Have you a source?

Cheers,

Sid.