What do you do about the Japanese navy helping out in the Atlantic?

[arkey81]

I’ve not seen a strategy article or any posts about what the Japanese Pacific fleet does after the Pearl Harbor attack.  My friend still hasn’t won as the Allies, but he’s getting annoyingly good with the Axis.  I think it’s because he likes to be aggressive (I mean, crazy aggressive!), and this works well with the Axis.

The last couple of games we’ve played face to face, he (or his Japanese ally) have taken the Pacific fleet right around the tip of South America as fast as possible after Pearl Harbor.  He sends everything, except transports, that’ll reach, and with the battleship 2-hit rules, he usually doesn’t lose anything killing the carrier and fighter at Hawaii.  Unfortunately, this fleet’s arrival, coupled with lots of air force and minimal navy builds from Germany have forced the US and UK to spend a lot of time trying to establish control of the Atlantic - enough time for Germany to crush Moscow.  By the end, we’ve killed all the navies, but we’ve spent so much money on the units to do it, that we don’t have enough transports to get an effective attack on Europe in time.  The German air force kept us from landing in Africa long enough for the Japanese fleet to get there, and then we never could make it until it was too late, and we just needed to get to Europe ASAP.

Since I haven’t heard much about this problem, I was wondering what usually goes down in your games, and/or what you might do to counter it.  I’ve submerged the US sub at Hawaii to then harrass the Japanese transports (to some success), so maybe I need to leave it in the battle, although I don’t see how it’s going to do much good there.

I haven’t tried throwing everything the US can at the J fleet after Pearl Harbor, because I didn’t think I could win, and I felt I needed to get the US planes somewhere east where they would help with defense.  Maybe I should just do that, knowing I’ll probably need to replace it all, but slowing J down from advancing east?

Also, the last game, we were effectively keeping Japan in check with the India and Sinkiang ICs, but maybe those just siphon away too much money to constantly stock?  But then, Russia would have Japan quickly knocking on their back door.  We were at least just staffing them with land unit purchases, not expensive fighters or anything.  But even freed from sending ANYTHING at all east, Russia could not hold off Germany.

[newpaintbrush]

Don’t worry, Bunnies is here to save you with some solid advice! . . . don’t laugh.  :x

1.  If Japan doesn’t have capital ships in the Pacific, use the UK and US subs to harass the Jap fleet.  Usually it’ll have to at least build a destroyer and keep a fighter or two back to deal with the subs; that will free up pressure against Russia.  Just a couple subs can really wreck Japan’s day.  If Japan has no ACs, an AC and fighters can force Jap sub, AC, or mass destroyer build, all of which slow Jap progress a lot.

2.  If you ARE going KJF (Kill Japan First), Sinkiang/India ICs may not be futile if you build a US Pacific fleet.  But it sounds like you are going KGF (Kill Germany First).  If you’re going KGF, Sinkiang/India ICs are a total waste in my opinion.  Forget them.  No wonder you can’t get a good Atlantic fleet going in time if you’re blowing off 30 IPC on UK1/US1 for ICs, bleeding off more IPCs every turn to reinforce those locations, and probably bleeding strength away from the Russian-German front as well as Russia tries to shore up those locations!!!

3.  The Jap fleet is taken out of circulation for a good 3-4 rounds.  You can easily use that time to establish your Allied fleet vs Germany.  Once that’s done, you can ramp down on the production with US and maintain 6 ground units a turn while still building US subs to fend the Japs off.

4.  Even in a KJF plan, UK should usually concentrate on aiding Russia through the London-Karelia/Archangel transport route while US focuses on the East Canada-Algeria transport route.

5.  You won’t hold Japan “in check” with India/Sinkiang ICs.  It’s like sticking your finger in a hole in a dike.  (noting what I wrote earlier about a big American Pacific fleet) Yeah, it’s a great plan - until you run out of fingers, which you will as Japan just increases the pressure in Asia.  How?  Japs put tanks at French Indochina, plus a bit of air, and some infantry at French Indochina and at China.  Now what?  Can you defend Sinkiang AND India against a fat Jap tank stack?  No.  So you retreat.  If you run from India, Japan gets a functional IC quickly, and pressures Caucasus, which is awful.  If you run from Sinkiang, Japan gets a functional IC almost on Moscow’s doorstep, which is just as bad.

6.  Best post some sample moves and builds from your games if you want some more help.  If you’re doing stuff like building 2 bombers on R1, or 2 cruisers 2 infantry on UK1, that would explain a lot right there.  Not saying you would do that sort of thing.  :wink:

[arkey81]

Well, I can’t recall the exact moves and buys, but we weren’t doing anything crazy.  I think the first turns were pretty standard, if you’re going with the Asian factories, that is.  Russia bought mostly infantry with a couple of artillery or tanks.  UK bought the India factory and saved his money, and the US bought the Sinkiang factory and some kind of boats for the Atlantic.

After that, Russia just kept buying land units, with more infantry than art or tanks.  The US and UK bought enough land units for their factories, and then the rest went towards Atlantic navy or air force.  By turn 3 or 4, the Japanese navy was rounding Brazil, and we had to kill that off, followed by a German navy from the Med, and by then we were too late to help Russia.  In the east, Russia never sent any units after the first round, as we were keeping Japan effectively bottled up.  So Russia wasn’t losing money out east, and he wasn’t wasting units out there either.  Granted, if he had been able to hold off that last German assault, I don’t think Germany had much following it, and was going to have to defend his shores, so things might’ve swung our way then.

[newpaintbrush]

@arkey81:

we weren’t doing anything crazy

Sinkiang/India ICs without a US Pacific fleet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8of00uEVRRA&NR=1

[arkey81]

Well, as far as my understanding goes, our PURCHASES weren’t crazy, as you wondered at the end of your reply.  We weren’t buying Russian Bombers to circle overhead and drop bologna sandwiches on them!  If you’re trying to say that the idea of slowing down Japan with ICs in Asia isn’t good in '42, then okay.  I’ve only played 4 games of '42, so maybe it’s not viable in that edition.  In the old-school edition, ICs in Asia just to slow down Japan seemed to work pretty well, as by then, our Atlantic fleet was set up well, and we could send enough aid to Karelia that Russia could just turn around and fight off Japan while the UK and US ground down Germany and waited for an opportune moment to land elsewhere.

Regardless of all of that, I’m still wondering what Japan usually does with their Pearl Harbor fleet, and is it better for the US to try and hit it right back, or just let it go?

[newpaintbrush]

I don’t like the idea of India/Sinkiang ICs in Revised without a US Pacific fleet either, even if UK unifies its fleet off Australia.

Back to Spring 1942 -

First, you can screw with the US1 counter to the Japan Pearl fleet either by grabbing Hawaii and/or the J1 sub/fighter attack vs US battleship.  (Hawaii’s not good odds, and the sub/fighter attack is risky)  But doing Pearl Harbor with Japan capital ships screws with Japanese progress in Asia, which is reason enough not to do it.  In my opinion of course, but . . . judge for yourself.

Generally I do “Pearl Light” (i.e. sub/cruiser/Caroline Islands fighter/bomber), because it frees up my heavier ships for escort or attack duty.  Controlling the sea zone east of Japan and/or the sea zone at French Indochina at the end of J1 can mean a real nasty accelerated start to Japan progress in Asia.

What to do with the Jap fleet?  Depends on what the Allies did.  Generally the Allies lock up the Suez Canal, then Japan might as well keep its fleet at home.  If Japan sends units around Africa or South America, it takes a long time to reach Atlantic, Allies can ignore it for a long time, then either build a few Pacific fleet units to screw with Japan’s transports and/or just build a few extra subs and keep Jap away in the Atlantic.  But we’re talking serious harassment here in Pacific already with just UK and US subs; if you move the Jap escorts away, you’re looking at early multiple destroyers for Japan, and keeping fighters nearby, which pulls them away from mainland Asia.

As far as whether US should counter Jap or not at Pearl - depends on how well the Jap player played.  If the Jap player did things like leaving unescorted aircraft carriers in range of the UK sub, left another battleship unescorted for UK air to kill, dropped escorts at Pearl making for an easy US counter - then with 2-3 capital ships in Pacific down, US can think about going KJF, in which case of course US will want to kill of Jap fleet as soon as possible.

If US isn’t going to try to kill Japan, though, why screw with countering Pearl?  You can use that US battleship and transport at Europe and Africa; if you’re screwing around with Japan, that’s just more time before you can unify your forces to attack.

[ragnarok628]

so, in general, is US to completely disregard the threat of japan assault on its mainland?  because they will still have time to defend it once it becomes clear that they are going to try?

[coorran]

@ragnarok628:

so, in general, is US to completely disregard the threat of japan assault on its mainland?  because they will still have time to defend it once it becomes clear that they are going to try?

Exactly my train of thoughts. And it’s also valid for a UK invasion by G…

[newpaintbrush]

Re:  Japan invasion of US

Early on, you concentrate on infrastructure (i.e. transport escorts and transports) for Atlantic.

If Japan drops to Alaska, they’re screwing with their early progress in Asia, so you react then.

Around R3, you can overbuild on infantry a bit and do as follows:

Post a few infantry in West Canada.  Build infantry at East US.  Build tanks at West US.  Keep a couple extra infantry in East Canada.

Now the West Canada infantry stay where they are, say 2-3.  Infantry at East US move to East Canada for Algeria drop.  West US tanks move to East Canada for Algeria drop.  If Japan drops to Alaska, West Canada infantry and West US tanks move to Alaska to reclaim, and use the extra East Canada infantry for the Algeria drop and/or to replace the West Canada infantry.

If Japan moves in in force, that’s great.  They totally screwed their progress in Asia, and you can see the thing coming a mile away, so you can easily prepare for it.