I must have got the rules about the unprevoked declaration mixed up.
Starlight Sniper
India crush, how to stop
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Ok now this can take many forms, but the basic principle is simple. Japan finds a way to get her large airforce at India on turn 3 or turn 4, and then smashes it. For an example of the long winded version
is this.On J1 they declare war, hit Phi with 2 transports and take Celebes or Java. On J2 they secure an LZ for the airforce by securing Sham State and by clearing out Burma with a drop, or taking the Cey island. They also put an airbase and naval base in Kwangsi. Then on turn 3 they hit India with 3 loaded transports plus around 15 planes and bombards.
The best thing I can do against this as allies is block SZ 37 so they cannot take burma and be sure to buy an armor or mech on turn 1 (as they can still clear burma with planes). But that only delays it a turn at best. And they can still bring 10 planes into India on J3 anyway along with 3 to 6 loaded transports.
Also credit goes to Stoney for pulling this tactic on me with the Cey island grab and inspiring me to explore other ways of doing this :-P
The truely sad thing is with this tactic, the US cant even get into the DEI before India falls.
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I think like most of the other strats I’ve seen so far, if Japan WANTS to take ‘x’ or ‘y’ badly enough, she has the power to do so (especially if she is willing to trade planes out). The real question is the opportunity cost of throwing all those planes into battle in India. How does that impact operations in China? Is the US free and clear to take Truk (and then become a menace within a turn or two)? Have the ANZAC’s been hit at all? Are they collecting their 15 IPC and able to throw raids at the DEI?
Without seeing the long-term play out, it’s hard to see if it’s a cost effective strategy or not. I admit at first brush, it sure seems powerful, but I’m not sure if the loss of India means the loss of the game as long as the other Allies are moving quickly. Japan’s income will be pretty high after taking India, but will she be able to replace the losses she suffers taking it? I guess a lot could depend on those AA rolls too, but Japan should plan on losing 2 planes going in + any that she takes as casualties to keep the assault going. I’m not sure that’s superior to a slower grind but I guess we’ll see eventually. :)
I think a big part of defending against any strat is accurately predicting if it’s coming or not. If Britain sees the tell-tale signs of it incoming, can she take any form of counter-measure that at least runs the cost up (ie, maybe building a DD to soak-off the shelling?).
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On J2 what are they bringing into the Shan state that the UK cannot counter attack and kill? You hit the Phillipines on turn 1 and your other transport is in Celebes. So assuming you only take one loss on the Phillipines, on J2 you could move in the Shan state with 2 infantry from Siam, 3 infantry and an arty from Kwangsi (assuming they moved into French Indo China on turn one), plus the 2 infantry from the Celebes and a Infantry, arty and a tank from the Phillipines. This leaves a total of 8 infantry, 2 arty, and a tank.
On UK turn 1 they should be moving their ground units in India into Burma, this leaves them with 5 infantry, and an arty. So on UK2 they counter attack with 9 infantry (5 in Burma and 4 in Malaya), an arty, 4 fighters and a tac bomber. Round one UK should get 4-5 hits, Japan should get about 4 hits. next round UK should have about 4 hits, while Japan should average 3 (assuming UK only had 4 hits on the first round of combat). Round three Uk should have three hits wiping the ground units out, while Japan should return one hit. Leaving the UK to occupy with an infantry and an arty. This destroys a pretty big chunk of the Japanese ground forces and will likely leave them weak in both South East Asia and the Dutch East Indies.
Edit: If Japan lands their air force in Kwangsi, Uk may need to move up their airforce and the AA gun as well. The only problem with this being that now bombers could potentially make strategic bombing raids on India. In this event you have to prioritize, a round of lost income vs India falling. Either way if Japan pushes hard for India they will need allied help or they’ll fall. The allies should exploit this by taking control of the DEI.
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Edit: If Japan lands their air force in Kwangsi, Uk may need to move up their airforce and the AA gun as well. The only problem with this being that now bombers could potentially make strategic bombing raids on India. In this event you have to prioritize, a round of lost income vs India falling.
No, factories have their own inherent AA guns now (which makes SBR even weaker). You can safely move the gun out without costing yourself anything on that front.
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Couple of things.
In the worse case India crush, japan cannot get a safe LZ for her planes. This allows her to drop 6 loaded transports on India on J3 and bring 10 planes (using carriers to land). That is 12 ground units and 10 planes against at most on India 15 ground units and 5 planes. That is still decent odds when you can follow it up again on the following round.
@Gwlachmai
If they are going to take Shan state, they are going to take Burma as well. The transports at Phi can reach, along with all the planes at Kwangsi. Yes they would have to suffer AA fire, but then they don’t have to suffer it when the attack India, so the point is moot. Yes a block on UK1 to stop them from being able to drop on Burma would work, but would not stop them as they can kill all allied boats in range of blocking the J3 assault and still pick of UK forces peacemeal if they want. Heck, I might even still hit Burma with just air to kill all those UK units.@Uncle Joe
Japan would still be in a good situation after this attack. They will still have a TUV advantage in navy against the US, and they can place there builds at India starting on J4 giving them a logistical advantage. Also, at this point the US has to ensure they can hold Pearl. As far as China goes this does not divert a sizable quantity of units from attacking china in the least, and they now have a factory right below China saving them from worring about how to get more units into China to finish them off. Yes the US could move its fleet into the DEI area on US3, but it would get smashed by the Japan fleet siting at India on the following turn. There are no gains the US can make in 3 turns to offset the lose of India so soon. Even if Japan were to lose 10 planes in this gambit, they would still have more planes and/or more boats than the US. -
Edit: If Japan lands their air force in Kwangsi, Uk may need to move up their airforce and the AA gun as well. The only problem with this being that now bombers could potentially make strategic bombing raids on India. In this event you have to prioritize, a round of lost income vs India falling.
No, factories have their own inherent AA guns now (which makes SBR even weaker). You can safely move the gun out without costing yourself anything on that front.
I understand that. Four fighters that can intercept bombers on a 2 or less is the deterent to strategic bombing raids (that now land in Burma). You move the AA gun to Burma to guard against a Jap air rush on the territory.
As far as this strat as a whole, I do think India is the easiest target for Japan, but when you get into move and counter move on the forums it just devolves into Theory and Allies. List a specific set of moves. If the strat is unstopable it stands to reason that a similiar set of moves will be used each time.
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Edit: If Japan lands their air force in Kwangsi, Uk may need to move up their airforce and the AA gun as well. The only problem with this being that now bombers could potentially make strategic bombing raids on India. In this event you have to prioritize, a round of lost income vs India falling.
No, factories have their own inherent AA guns now (which makes SBR even weaker). You can safely move the gun out without costing yourself anything on that front.
I understand that. Four fighters that can intercept bombers on a 2 or less is the deterent to strategic bombing raids (that now land in Burma). You move the AA gun to Burma to guard against a Jap air rush on the territory.
As far as this strat as a whole, I do think India is the easiest target for Japan, but when you get into move and counter move on the forums it just devolves into Theory and Allies. List a specific set of moves. If the strat is unstopable it stands to reason that a similiar set of moves will be used each time.
Even if there is a strat which guarantees an Ind capture J3 or J4, I feel like the game is still far from over (at least at this point), since Jap will probably have to effectively ignore ANZ, US, and Chi in order to accomplish this type of guarantee-strat. After India and UK/DEI territs are taken, Jap is still being outproduced by Allies, but they have a much more strategic position, including a MIC on Yun’s doorstep and a more contiguous front, and options on which victory cities to go after.
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I disagree, if India falls J3 or J4 the allies have yet to get into position in sufficient force to overcome Japan’s starting naval advantage, and they have not yet had enough time with economic superiority to have a unit advantage in general. And if India has fallen, with a major IC that close to the DEI, the DEI is lost to the allies as well.
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That depends on the air losses they take in killing India. All of Asia (plus the NO bonus for India) is only +30 IPC’s, bringing Japan up to America’s income. Though no longer needing to fund a landwar would allow them to concentrate on naval production. As well as possibly having better positioned factories to contest the DEI.
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The survival of both china and the uk are intertwined. If one falls then japan will surely destroy the other. In my experience the only way the
allies can win us if at least one of these nations survives, and usually it’s both or neither. My thoughts are that it’s up to the US and Anzac to put enough pressure on japan to keep china and or the uk alive. My problem is I can’t figure out what the US and Anzac should do. -
Well again, as I mentioned above, I seriously doubt there IS a way to stop it if Japan wants India. The idea would be to come up with US/ANZAC strats that make Japan pay for that heavy of a commitment of assets that far West. Without seeing in it action, I can’t really offer too much other than generalities. I do think that is it ends up costing Japan anywhere NEAR around 10 planes, it’s not worth it, particularly if it’s occupying the bulk of her TR assets in the early turns as well.
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If Japan has put that many resources into taking India, China would probably still be fairly alive-ish. If the US took TRUK, they could use that to send transports to China in one turn and blitz a bunch of territorites, assuming you brought tanks, behind the majority of the Japanese forces. This could be a huge pain for Japan because China can now build on either side of the Japanes forces and take back even more territory. If we’re still thinking in terms of a US “conveyer belt” to the DEI, this wouldn’t even hamper that strategy too much. The US fleet at TRUK can hit every island except Sumatra and ANZAC could do transport work to actually take the islands. I’m wondering whether this would be effective in diverting the IJN if the US sent their whole TRUK fleet to China instead of just transports. Right now I’m thinking not…
Oh, by the way, I’ve only played 4 games of Pacific so someone please tell me why I’m wrong before I do this for real and get my butt handed to me. :-D
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I think that’s a fair assesment, but, overall it’s probably a better position for Japan if India is conquered.
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On my first turn with the UK, I always purchase an additional AA and move the existing one into Burma. That means 3 AA’s Japan’s planes must fly through to attempt this. That fear alone is a heavy deterrent.
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On my first turn with the UK, I always purchase an additional AA and move the existing one into Burma. That means 3 AA’s Japan’s planes must fly through to attempt this. That fear alone is a heavy deterrent.
Not sure if you are saying that you put aa guns in the flight path of japanese air so that they get to shoot at them as they fly over. If you are that is wrong. Unlike classic AA planes can fly over territories with aa guns with no penalty. they only get shot at when they are attacking a territory with an aa gun.
Also not sure how you get to three anyway. If you SBR a territory the aa gun doesnt shoot at the planes. the factory aa gun shoots but thats it. the actual aa gun only participates in actual combat.
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On my first turn with the UK, I always purchase an additional AA and move the existing one into Burma. That means 3 AA’s Japan’s planes must fly through to attempt this. That fear alone is a heavy deterrent.
Not sure if you are saying that you put aa guns in the flight path of japanese air so that they get to shoot at them as they fly over. If you are that is wrong. Unlike classic AA planes can fly over territories with aa guns with no penalty. they only get shot at when they are attacking a territory with an aa gun.
Also not sure how you get to three anyway. If you SBR a territory the aa gun doesnt shoot at the planes. the factory aa gun shoots but thats it. the actual aa gun only participates in actual combat.
He’s saying 3 assuming the planes fly back over Bur in NCM. But again, it doesn’t happen according to OOB rules.
What is TRUK?
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Caroline Islands. It was Japans main base in the Carolines in WW II.
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In my last game, I played Japan and did a different variation of the India push. On the first and second turns I built transports, infantry and artillery. On the first two turns I took Indo-China and as many Chinese territories as possible all with a mind to shift forces south towards India. On turn 3, I unleashed the Japanese hordes capturing Kwangtung, the Philippines, Borneo, Celebes, Java, Sumatra, Malaya and Shan State. The Allies did the best they could to preserve their forces by reteating and staying out of my way. By turn 4, India was isolated and reduced to an economy of 4. On turn 5 India fell to a wave of Japanese land units that took the Burma Road from China, transports loaded with infantry and artillery from the early builds and the massive air force. The US could not breach either the Japan or Caroline Island air bases by turn 5 and the Anzacs were cowering in Australia. As we sat back and analyzed the game and what the Allies could have done differently, we could not come up with anything. At the end of turn 5, India was crushed and Japan had the military and economic advantage over the Allies. :? :?
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We haven’t tried the J1 attack yet, but the last couple of games saw Japan buying 2 x transports on the first turn + 1 minor complex.
The first game wound up being a J2 attack, and China got steam rolled in a couple turns, then India went bye-bye.
The second game wound up a J3 attack, at which point China was down to just two infantry. India enjoyed an extra turn of infantry building, then got crushed under a tidal wave of Japanese units.
We’ve been fooling around with using the British CA & DD to screen off Java and Sumatra (we call the “lower block”), and the British BB and the US DD to screen off the Philippines from the 2 transports in Japan on J2 (we’re calling this move the “upper block”. The Brit BB goes to the SZ with Guam, and the US DD blocks the adjacent SZ between Guam & Asia. I don’t have the SZ numbers handy at the moment). The two blocking moves together can present the Japanese with some interesting choices on J2. To be honest, this is the first and only situation we’ve seen that causes the Japanese player to consider a J3 attack.
The minor complex going into Asia on J1, even with it’s 3 unit restriction, has been huge in the games we’ve played. Just when we thought that the Allies were back into the game on an even level, this move tipped the scales right back to Japan’s favor.
I know it sounds crazy, but after our last crushing Japanese win in which India again fell, I was looking at the board and trying to think of some way to threaten Japan more directly. I thought maybe an American minor IC (which could go to a major one later), along with a naval base in Alaska might do the trick?
Especially if the Japanese attack on J1, the US could put both down by US2. The Japanese fleet would be at the other end of the gameboard…ah, just a thought.
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If Japan is going for India as fast as possible then the ANZAC needs to ferry fighters as soon as possible to provide some high rolling defence. I think the US should try to pressure the island of Japan itself and throw everything you have at it. Its an idea and it could force Japan to build more things there just to try to ward you off. Basically you could fake out Japan then land on mainland Asia. Being extremely aggressive with the US and not being afraid to lose things is what I found worked against Japan in both my allies wins. Granted I was playing against people who are not as good as me, it came down to buying the correct units and playing smartly, taking things back from Japan and giving her more options to consider instead of just all or nothing at India. ANZAC needs to try to get both bonuses to get themselves faster in the game which some people probably don’t even try to do. Just have to harass and pick off units where ever possible with the allies, all the while pushing as fast and as hard as you can.
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